I think the amount of points allowed for custom factions traits should be raised from 80 to 105. Not to make the custom option "stronger" but rather to make it more fair with the prebuilt factions, of which the Vaulters and Mezari use 105 trait points. In other words I think that a custom faction should allow enough trait points to be able to equal any predefined faction.

If you want to put standard and custom factions on equal footing, I'm fairly certain you'd have to lower the custom faction point limit, not raise it--you can't exactly recreate every standard faction with the current limit, but I'm confident you can make a lot of custom factions that are stronger than any of the standard factions. (This is a common problem with point-buy systems--the prebuilt options are designed to be interesting and/or flavorful, rather than optimized for maximum power within a point limit, and therefore tend to be weak relative to the amount of points they use.)



I also suspect that we're never going to have a system that makes custom and standard factions even, because the standard factions just don't have enough perks--the number of trait points that would accurately represent the power of standard factions wouldn't be enough to let you build any interesting custom ones, because many standard factions have about one major ability (plus their affinity and some overpriced minor abilities).



Regardless, I think the maximum points for custom factions should be a game option, so you can choose to create a game with a very high or very low point limit if you want to.

Antistone wrote:
If you want to put standard and custom factions on equal footing, I'm fairly certain you'd have to lower the custom faction point limit, not raise it--you can't exactly recreate every standard faction with the current limit, but I'm confident you can make a lot of custom factions that are stronger than any of the standard factions.

I guess that is a fair point. Really though when I said "more fair with prebuilt factions" I simply meant it seems unfair to me that the designers can use 105 points and the players can not. This is really just an example of how more casual players are often punished to prevent min max players from having an advantage. Something that always irks me in games. However since this is a multiplayer game in addition to single player it is a fair concern.



For my own reasons I just like making more fun flavor factions, not to min max but just to spice up the gameplay. I currently do this through modding but it would be a lot quicker to do it on the fly.

Antistone wrote:
Regardless, I think the maximum points for custom factions should be a game option, so you can choose to create a game with a very high or very low point limit if you want to.

I agree with that idea and think it is the best of both worlds.

I am slightly annoyed that there is no point to creating a custom Vaulters faction due to the point difference but at the same time also annoyed that Ardent Mages custom have so many free points to use. The current point system just doesn't do a good job because of the high variance, point values of everything factions start with should be adjusted until they all add up to the same number be it 80, 90, 100, whatever.

On a slightly related note, I would really like to see more customization open up in EL like is ES. Right now, what makes each built in faction cool and unique is tied to the faction affinity itself, so you can't mix and match. What if I wanted to play the Broken Lords still using Dust instead of Food, but I Want to be migrant like the Roving Clans and have the ability to pick up and move my cities? Nope can't do it because those abilities are tied to the Faction Affinity. I'd love to see those broken out as custom traits you can choose, even if they are expensive.



I'd also like to see the Appearance/Units broken out as a separate option like in ES. In ES I can choose the affinity of one race but the appearance of another. Which is handy if for example you like the ships in on faction, but the playstyle of another. Many players are heavily biased on visual looks (And as a culture aren't we?!) so being able to split like that is great. Like I said its doable in ES so i'd like to see it doable in EL as well. Let me play as Roving Clans affinity for example, with Ardent Mages units/avatar. Like for example as interesting as say the Cultist playstyle sounds, I just don't want to play them because I can't stand the visual appearance of their avatar and units.

Agathorn wrote:
I'd also like to see the Appearance/Units broken out as a separate option like in ES. In ES I can choose the affinity of one race but the appearance of another. Which is handy if for example you like the ships in on faction, but the playstyle of another. Many players are heavily biased on visual looks (And as a culture aren't we?!) so being able to split like that is great. Like I said its doable in ES so i'd like to see it doable in EL as well. Let me play as Roving Clans affinity for example, with Ardent Mages units/avatar. Like for example as interesting as say the Cultist playstyle sounds, I just don't want to play them because I can't stand the visual appearance of their avatar and units.

Just to give you more info on this point, that was something we thought about at first, especially for the Mezari (which are Vaulters with a new skin).

But unlike ES where all the modules were the same for everyone, in EL each unit has its own weapon it can carry and its own animation in consequence.

Then, for instance, it makes it technically impossible to mix an appearance of a vaulters (with animation of archer) with a necrophages affinity and units (which requires to be an infantry type).

I didn't read all these posts, but I agree that more balance needs to be added to custom factions. Some factions have over 100 points while Broken Lords have way under the max total points. It's mostly the faction specific technologies that take up the most points. If only that faction can have those technologies it's obvious that you want to have those technologies in the game so it's pointless to have them in custom factions in my opinion.



Again with the technologies, in custom factions all or most of them (either starting tech or faction specific) is extremely expensive. I know ES and EL shouldn't really be compared but in ES the points for starting techs was only 4 points.



Another thing taking up a lot of points is the affinities. In ES the faction affinity didn't take up any points, here you start off with 25 points already taken (for a lot of factions) then added factions specific tech points about 10 or more points a piece.



The way the points are laid out there are only a few factions even worth doing a custom faction with. If you can stand the Broken Lords affinity they have the greatest possibility to be an overpowered custom faction.

Yea this custom faction system must be the most unbalanced one ever. :P



Wish you could strip factions down to the bone. Remove even faction ability and units, then mix up a few different races to create a new core for your race.

I was thinking, instead of increasing the total points allowed, they could just add more negative traits. This will allow you to add more positive stuff for more customization... although I would not mind if they increased total points to 85 instead of 80. Right now, I only play with custom factions because they are the most fun imo



Here are some ideas for some positive and especially negative traits they could add (I mentioned them in a previous thread):

1- Slothful: Your cities produce 10% less (3 ranks, can be up to 30%) -7 points per rank

2- Corrupt Bureaucracy: Unit and Building buyout with is 10% more expensive in your cities. (3 ranks, can be up to 30%) -5 points per rank

3- Nomads: Your cities have 25% less Fortification Points. Districts cost 25% more to build. -9 points

4- Bloodlust: Gain 5 for 10 turns in your cities every time you kill an enemy unit. Does not affect Privateer armies. Maximum effect stack +35 _ +12 points

5- Pessimistic: Lose 5 for 10 turns every time you lose a unit in battle. Does not affect Privateer armies. Maximum effect stack -35 _ -10 points

6- Concentration camps: Captured cities recover 20% ownership per turn instead of normal 8%. Cannot be taken with "Weapons of the Enemy". +8 points

7- Hereditary Amnesia: Your units gain 40% less experience (except heroes) _ -6 points

8- Frontal Hypogenesis: Your heroes gain 30% less experience _ -5 points

9- Native Reservations: Minor Faction Assimilation bonus will always be considered as 2 pacified villages regardless of actual number of pacified villages. -3 Points

10- High Vocal Frequency: 25% higher Influence costs for diplomatic interactions. Can not be taken with "Pitiless". -7 points

11- Jingoism: -10 for every unpacified or destroyed village in empire. -5 points

12- Interbreeding: +6 for each pacified village of assimilated Minor Factions. +9 Points

Those are some interesting ideas! I don't think empire approval does anything though-- am I wrong? (Or by empire approval, do you mean in every one of your cities?)

They would do really well by adding more of the negative traits from Endless Space such as the ones based on percentage of FIDSI production. (Which would be very good for min/maxing in multiplayer games) Also out of curiosity, what does your ''pitiless'' trait do Krimson?

Though I've only recently started tinkering with Custom Factions, I think Antistone's suggestion is, indeed, the best of both worlds!



A lot of table top games are balanced that way---Balanced around the idea of much smaller armies, but with different point limits and leagues that allow for bigger games.



Magic the Gathering, the infamous card game, even to a degree has tiered balancing in the form of different leagues that essentially determine how far far you go back since the game is generally balanced for Type 2/Standard's much smaller pool of cards. The further back you go the more tools you have and thus the harder it is to balance. An obvious analogy to the point system!



I do think EL's custom faction creation is a better than Endless Space's. It's not as good for Roleplay because where as ES is more of a beautiful impersonal spreadsheet empire where your imagination can fill the blanks, Endless Legend is much more personal being planet focused, quest focused, ect.





Let's compare Endless Space to Endless Legend, analysing what Amplitude has learned and their current stance on custom balance:



For Roleplay:



Endless Space works better. Why? Because while it's easier to create a faction with it's own unique identity in Endless Space. That's largely due to how impersonal running a Space Empire can be.. You're piloting a very sleek beautiful spreadsheet and letting your imagination fill the blanks. There is also a higher number of negative traits which also lend themselves well to customization and roleplay, but unfortunately help you break the game.

That's because with that high number of negative traits you can simply pile on the ones that aren't relevant to your strategy with little to no impact on your empire.



For Balance:



I think EL is in a slightly better place balance-wise. There seem to be less negative traits that aren't seriously impactful. They also tend to shave off less points from your pool than negative traits in Endless Space, meaning that you have to pile on a heavy amount of detrimental traits to come up with anything crazy. I mean.. It's still pretty breakable! But certainly has the right ideas about how to approach it.



Most negative traits should be in the real of -5 -10, while more positives remain 10, 15, 20 +



So if more negative traits are introduced they should strive be both relevant and impactful, as well a staying -10 or -5 in your point pool!