Hi,



first, I´m new here and must apologize my behaviour, if I`m not right here

You guys are awesome developers and the G2G-system encourages me to do this;

Endless Legend has no demonic magic penguins, and that`s why I bought it instead of Age of Wonders 3. It`s not a game. It`s art.

Well, that`s my opinion. Now I want to give some ideas to the world I`m a student of maths and, sometimes, I must silence my creative energy by modifying/inventing boardgames and other unusual stuff...



It seems the reviewers love this game, except one issue:

Like every other "Empire"-game I know (...), it can be a bit "boring" in lategame, because the decisions about one province/city (build building, order citizens, etc.) effect then the gameplay only minimally. And, I think, that`s logical: A big imperium with many cities depends less on one particular city, than a small imperium with few cities.



There are many attempts to minimize this "problem":

- The most common way I can think of: Making the lategame more difficult. The TotalWar-games do this very often, spawning some mongols from off the map. But I think this is everytime a very nasty thing. I mean, psychologically ;D And it solves not the problem: You have to do the city-stuff AND you have to deal with the increased difficulty. It´s like the game hits me in the face and says: "Eat this!" Additional to the usual stuff! Anytime this happens, I don`t want to play such a imperium-game any more.

So things like "riots" or "alien" invasions could be very nasty.

- And there`s the other way: Making the lategame more exciting. Tech, New Units, etc. That`s always fun and good, but it solves not THIS issue. For example, the Civ-games make the tech uber-exciting, because it`s kind of "real" tech.

- AI-controlled cities: I think, that`s also not perfect, because nobody wants to "have no control" on a city.



- Merging X cities/provinces in one, so you control now a bigger region with more stuff: So the optimization has less actions to be done. But, in Endless Legend a city is a fixed thing and cannot be merged with another city far away. Nevertheless you must do the stuff for each city seperately.

(In fact, wouldn`t be this a really nice little game? "Manage your always-growing ("endless" ) Imperium in an always-growing ("endless") procedurally generated world" From time to time the map zooms out, and the owned regions merge to bigger ones. This was one of my boardgame ideas, but, well, it`s difficult to make such a game with analog components... Also, this doesn`t work very well with competitive multiplayer? (different starting locations) )



So the problem is:

You need to give every single province the same "importance" throughout the whole game. For your external issues (the game) this importance goes slowly down, because no enemy/friend/etc. wouldn`t "beam" directly to the middle of your territory.

So you need a slowly growing additional importance.



I know you guys LOVE cards (endless space battles...), so here`s my idea:

Deck-building. And I don`t mean Hearthstone or Magic:The Gathering. I`m thinking of REAL deck-building:

Dominion, Star Realms, Mage Knight (from Vlaada Chvatil; BoardgameRank: 8 ) and so on; and yep, these are all boardgames... (You can download Star Realms for free at their website.)

Real deckbuilding consists of NOT building your deck BETWEEN games (like hearthstone etc.). You create you own deck, WHILE you`re playing the actual game! Over the years boardgames have advanced their way to create a game as “efficient” as possible.



So back: There`s more city importance wanted. While you`re playing, you gain more and more cities. Wouldn`t be it very extravagant to mix this with deckbuilding?



So this came in my mind, because the artwork of the buildings look like artwork from playing cards...

(It sounds very complex, but it is in fact very intuitive

Every time you unlock a new building, you get a “card” with this building. You can use cards once per turn, then they go to a so-called “discard pile” . When there`s no card in the card supply, the discard pile is shuffled and go to the card supply.

At the end of the round all unused cards also go to this discard pile. Every new round you get X cards to use. X is the number of cities owned (Or at least: X is proportional to the number of cities owned).



When you use a card, you can start building its building in one of your cities (with usual cost).



And then maybe a “clone” action/card: Discard a card (without using it), and clone instead another card “in your hand”. The cloned card goes to the discard pile.



So the city-building never goes “boring” or overwhelming: Because you have visible limited choices to do. And you never get thousands of cities, so you`re card limit (X) never goes crazy.



This mechanic is VERY, VERY addictive and can be expanded VERY, VERY easily (I dont know actually, how much expansions Dominion has...) with additional cards like spells, etc. (You can even play around with actions per round, scrapping cards to make your deck functioning, boni for same-colored cards (Star Realms), etc. etc. etc. )



No videogame developers has used this mechanic yet! They stay all at this old Hearthstone-mechanic, which originally came from this VERY OLD CCGs like Magic:The Gathering, Netrunner, Pokemon and Digimon with their immense card creep...

You've mentioned Total War. In Shogun 2/Fall of Samurai they have realm divide. Basically when you're close to win everyone hates you. It would look fine in 4X when it's implemented well (you still have to be able to have allies/subjects. In Shogun 2 everyone just declares war on you) but it wouldn't make much sense in context. Some of it exists in quest victory - you have to fight powerful neutrals and declare war on other factions. But it wouldn't make sense for everyone to hate you cause you're "close" to diplomatic or economic victory. Well, perhaps it would make sense for some AIs - necrophages may hate diplomats and clans may just envy other rich people.



Ahem. So about your idea

funny vid

But I don`t understand the point of your reply Isn´t your opinion the same like mine?

He's disagreeing with your idea, saying it's absurd to add as a component to this particular game.

I, on the other hand, am at least intrigued. Could you perhaps expound a bit on just what these cards would consist of? Like what they do exactly? I wasn't able to determine that from your original post.



And are you suggesting an added mechanic to the game to add to immersion or is this a replacement for an already existing one?

Sure.



The cards should look like the original building "cards" at the build ui.

Instead of a build ui for each city, one "draft" ui, somewhat at the place, where the original build ui is now.

You can dragndrop a card to a city of your choice. When dropped at a city, this city begins building this thing. The usual ui for "building queue in city" stays.

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Maybe I explain the deckbuilding thing more structured:



You have an invisible "deck" of cards and an invisible "discard pile".

At start: the "discard pile" is empty and the "deck" is full of starting buildings/units



At the beginning of each round: you draw X cards from the "deck"; X is number of cities owned

During each round: you can use as many cards as you like with dragndrop; used cards go to the "discard pile"

At the end of each round: all unused cards go to the "discard pile"



Each time:

- the "deck" is empty: the "discard pile" gets shuffled and all cards in there go to the "deck"

- you get a new tech for a building/unit (including minor faction units etc.): this building/unit goes to the "discard pile"

__________________________________________________________

Advantages:

- Now: for each city an own build ui => Building is like shopping with a shopping list; I don`t say it`s boring, but well... When you have a big number of cities, this is, well...

With this: only ONE draft ui for all building => makes the game easier and at the same more difficult: You see everytime, what you can build (at the draft ui); but the question, where you build it, and when, adds to immersion.



- There are no additional animations or such difficult stuff to implement



- Opens up a whole new game segment, where you can implement the craziest cards ever (Like: "you`re army can walk this round three times" Or: "spell: meteor storm on hex-tile" Or: "draw 3 additional cards" Or: "clone/scrap a card" and much more)



- It isn`t much change in the gameplay, because the buildings need time to be built

(Assumed you don`t buy them with Dust. But this is only a major disadvantage for the Broken Lords, especially the custom Broken Lords; And, well, they don`t seem underpowered )





WELL, this is a very good mechanic! I hope I could help you

hmmm... ok, lemme just make sure I understand this correctly.

1. The deck consists of all buildable things, including army units and, im assuming, stockpiles

2. The amount of cards you can draw per turn is proportional, in some way, to the number of cities you have

3? The player picks what card they want from a small number of cards drawn from the "deck". (Say the player has to pick from 5 cards and can pick 2, does the player pick 2 from the five there or does he pick one, a new set of five is presented, and they pick another one?)

4. all unselected cards get shuffled back into the deck

5? Upon researching a new tech, that tech's thing is then shuffled into the "deck"

6? The deck consists of only what is buildable, so, if you only have one city and you have built a market, no market cards will appear, but if you have two cities and only one has a market, market cards will still appear.

7? all cards are equally likely to be drawn

8? Cards can be selected and added to the build que of any city for storage, but cant be transferred between cities once placed somewhere



Balance Concern #1: "I need to build that right now":

While this is a pretty interesting idea, and one that I think could stand to be played around with a bit more, it does have one rather glaring issue in my opinion.



Endless legend is a high level strategy game, comparable to chess in a way, and part of that strategy is in how you manage your cities...

With this card system, we now have an influx of luck added to the mix.

Some people may see it as being the same as adding dice to a game of chess where you cant move unless you roll even and, while that example may be extreme, a similar line of problems could happen here as well... For example:

Imagine your city isnt producing enough dust in the winter, which came up out of nowhere. At the time, you were about to make another military unit, but, with the winter here, building up your army isnt the best idea since your enemy is far away.

Normally, you would select an economic building and move it to the top of your que so your dust levels arent too low by the time winter ends.

Now, however, doing this depends entirely on you having both gotten the card needed to build the proper building and had the foresight and space to place that card in your que.



This could, however, be fixed to some degree just based on how one organized the cards one could draw... The fact remains, however, that in this sort of game, not having the ability to build somthing for even 1 turn can be devastating down the line...



Balance Concern #2: just how many turns are there?

Since the players can only draw x amount of cards per turn, a game set to Fast will be very awkward compared to a game set in Endless speed where the large number of draw opportunities makes the card system somewhat inconsequential.

In a fast game, I expect that it would be very common to find an empire with tech a tier ahead of anything they have built in their cities... because balance issue #1 would be highly accentuated.

In an endless game, the card system will inevitably become a hassle after the first few turns as it takes sooo long to build anything and you get opportunities to draw cards every turn.



Balance concern #3: Do Something darn you!

This is basically concern #1 but with a new spin.

In the late game, say the player has four cites, all of which are fairly well developed, and they settle a fifth city.

Since the build costs of all buildings stay the same, the player now needs to draw a low level building to build in their new city. If the player is unfortunate enough to not draw anything practical for the new city to build, that city basically needs to do nothing for a turn... Again, losing precious time to bad luck.



Immersion Concern #1

This is really just a matter of creative explanation, but just why is it a civilization has to pick and chose what it can build? Normally, if they are able and know how they should just be able to build it, but now, for some reason, they have to wait for an additional right opportunity... what's going on here?



Unmentioned Pros:

-Mercenary units may become more valuable on the market as some players may not want to put units in their que, preferring to save space for desired buildings.

-Stockpiles may also become more valuable so ques can be cleared out more quickly, also enhancing the market and trade





Still, these major concerns need to be addressed. Can you think of a way to modify your proposed system to remove the problems here? As I see it right now, while the card system itself is a very interesting idea, the building portion of the game may not be the best place for it if these issues cant be cleverly resolved...

Maybe, the card system should be removed from the city building section of the game and placed somewhere else?... like... an espionage component of the game? Or, perhaps somthing else like... trading opportunities on the market maybe?



If your focus is on enhancing the building portion of the game, however, and you cant really see any way to make the card system work in a really good way, can you think of another idea that addresses the current problems you mentioned?

Thanks for the reply!



3?: The player draws "automatically" X cards; These are the cards he/she can choose from; they`re visible at the draft ui. At the end of the round all unused "cards in your hand" go to the "discard pile", so at the beginning of the next round you draw X new cards and so on.

5?: Yes, reasonably only the techs which unlock a new "buildable" thing (for example: weapon upgrades not)

6?: Yes, as it is right now? The mechanic puffers the "crap" cards. => Maybe this "clone/scrap card"-action: Then all buildings, which are available (not buildable), are in the deck, and you can create/customize your own little "card engine".

7?: Yes, the mechanic puffers this.

8?: Oh yes, I think so. So you must plan ahead.



Balance Concern #1:

I don`t think it has much dice game character: Because the building queue exists, as you said; you must plan ahead. After a short period of rounds the deck`s empty, so that much rounds you must plan ahead.

So "I need to build that right now" changes to "I surely could have known that I need to build that right now". You know a few rounds before, if winter`s coming. And you can add a building to a queue and actually build it a long time afterwards or even don`t build it. So I think the luck factor here is nearly 0



Balance Concern #2:

Oh yes, I felt something with X was wrong

Maybe X = (number of cities)x(game speed variable) Or the half of this. I think it`s just another variable. (variable big => gamespeed fast /variable small => gamespeed endless). This looks all mathematical and dry, but because of the fact that you cannot really play around with the "cardlimit" X, it`s a solution.



Balance concern #3:

Yes, that`s right. But if you count all buildable buildings and compare them with X, you see the maximum amount of rounds lost is one round. => Maybe a "save card"-action (save maximal one card for future turns/next turn). But it`s not really needed.



Immersion Concern #1:

Explanation: The mechanic represents your form of government. You choose your orders to the cities, like Alexander the great to his big empire. And sometimesthe orders don`t get delivered...

As I see now, there is no monarchy/oligarchy/democracy in the game. So it could be a nice addition





So I should have solved now these issues? Personally I also don`t like luck in strategy games

Oh, espionage sounds great fun; must think about it Trading opportunities? I don`t understand

If not this mechanic with the buildings, maybe made as an extern additional deck of "hex spells" on the empire map? Meteorstorm, Fertilize, earthquake/volcano (decreases/increases hextile height), create fort, create sea/river, terraforming etc. Or during the battles as "hero"/"dust" spells?

Must think of another way to increase importance of single cities. I thought first of a "minigame" which is resolved in each region of a city, but, well, no idea! How this would look like.

Fair enough on most counts. and those details you provided did clear up some things.



I have to admit, this suggestion does seem like it could have some potential to make the game somewhat more interesting if implemented properly... at least in my opinion... heck, it could even enhance game lore if it were implemented with almost purely cosmetic story choices or something like that...



Immersion issue #2/ Balance issue #4

Alright, government may be a satisfactory answer, but lets take a look at what we have here.

Each civ in this game plays in a unique manner, each with their own unique lore. If government is our answer to making the card system acceptable, then we are going to have to mess with how each civ interacts with the system as we have things like all powerful dictatorships like the cultists, something akin to oligarchies with the drakons, and so on and so forth.

To make things both unique and lore friendly, how should each of the factions currently implemented engage with the city building deck screen?

Thank you!



I don`t know... I can remember the devs said somewhere, they don`t want to expand the governments much?

Because nearly all factions seem to be a monarchy:



Wild walkers: king in intro sequence

Necrophages: hero in intro sequence

Ardent Mages: Zor Abaz

Vaulters: leader “Zolya Ilona“

Cultists: queen (unspoken only hero)



And some are oligarchies:

Broken Lords: aristocracy

Drakken: more of a military/static "system" (from their "creators"?)



And one is more "disorganized" than a government:

Roving Clans: clans (everything`s moving, so they`re surely all the same, but - is there a constructed leadership of all clans?)



It seems the faction have more of a faction state "philosophy" than a government:

Wild Walkers: wild intensity vs. nature growth

Broken Lords: power vs. honor

Vaulters (Mezari): traditional (church “Great Orrery” ) vs. scientific (leader “Zolya Ilona“)

Necrophages: evolution, anarchy, instinct

Ardent Mages: pain, stoicism, intelligence, elitism

Roving Clans: family (clans), pragmatism, business

Drakken: elder wisdom, balance with power/diplomacy, mechanical duty

Cultists: queen, elitism, fanatism (mind control? mechanical?)



Is that right? So should we keep an eye more on the philosophies? To differ the factions more precicely. I´m stucked on that.

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Uh, now I know it:

As it seems the government are nearly the same, the mechanic stays the same for each faction (anything else would also be too complicated). But as the philosophies/factions aren`t the same, each faction gets unique faction-related special cards (unlocked per tech and/or in starting hand).



So this is also very interesting for a espionage system: "Stealing" other faction`s special cards...

examples:

Wild Walkers: grow forest, battle cry, childbirth

Broken Lords: "corruption" like "drain hp/dust, get higher max hp/damage/authority"

Vaulters (Mezari): build laboratory, build mine, enforce steel units

Necrophages: evolutional step forward, cannibalism, build "breed mother"= separated little city in region, inefficient, builds units faster, etc.

Ardent Mages: "drain hp, gain magical power", get endless= unit destroyed, gain dust/tech/etc. random?

Roving Clans: taxes, controlling inflation, deflation, family trees

Drakken: dragon nests, activate relic

Cultists: evangelize region = gain influence on region, fanatism = gain X% more influence



and so on; and maybe at some point you can customize your starting/expanding faction deck like the faction customization at the techs. Adds variety and is like "Combined Deckbuilding"; old version with new version mixed. Even more addictive!