BPrado wrote:
It´s actually not wordy enough, perhaps. the way it is, everyone´s getting overwhelming charge, even Kassais. There should be a "on cavalry (class) units".





What´s the max Battle speed a unit from regular factions can have? I think it´s 7, on dervishes with necklaces, right? Dervishes are supposed to be, at least the way I see it, currently the best Charging units in the game, right? So assuming such Dervishes had the most effcient charge, it would be fair if the ability provided 7% chance per tile. This way it´s still pretty useful on slower units, and it reaches full potential on improved movement dervishes (49% chance).



just suggesting; ultimately, it´s your idea.

The Dervish has 6 Movement Points in Combat, with Legendary (Tier 3) Iron Necklace. So 8% per Tile should clock in at a maximum of 48%, right?



And please, I welcome any suggestions you might have; if I didn't want criticism and feedback, I wouldn't have started this thread

Thanks. I'll send you a message once I get it done, so you can try out the cavalry heroes yourself. Unfortunately, I will probably need to use the base cavalry models and scale them up to large unit size for the heroes, because the actual hero models are either not rigged for melee weapons (Vaulters, Roving Clans), or don't have a mount (Broken Lords, Cultists).

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:
There are some quite good ideas in this thread. Would anybody mind if I "stole" some of them when I finally get back around to working on my Weapon Variety Mod?



Now, let's consider what cavalry is good or bad at.

• They're fast, strategically. Individual riders can scout ahead and relay information, and the army as a whole might move faster than an infantry army (though not by much, because of the need for supplies).
• They're fast, tactically. They can often pick their battlefield, or outflank the enemy and hit them where it hurts.
• The charge of a unit of heavy cavalry is devastating and terrifying. Light cavalry and mounted archers are excellent at harassing and pursuing the enemy.
• On the negative side, cavalry is ill-suited to defensive battles or holding their ground.
• Cavalry charges are also a lot less effective and terrifying against an enemy who has time to prepare, rather than already being engaged with the enemy.
  
  

Many of these are already reasonably presented in your suggestions, but perhaps the morale penalty could depend on the number of adjacent enemies or allies.

For example, let's imagine a battle of a few cavalry units against a starting army of infantry, like the Broken Lords starting army. The BL align their army in a line to face the cavalry. At -1 morale, the first cavalry unit to crash into them will barely affect their morale, as they were ready for the onslaught. The center unit would still have positive morale, bolstered by the knowledge that its flanks are secure, and even a unit on the edge would have neutral morale, since their buddies got their backs. But then the second cavalry unit crashes into them. Now the center is beginning to waver in the face of the massed cavalry assault, and the flanks are ready to break.

And if we instead imagine an ongoing battle in which the main lines of infantry have already clashed, most units adjacent to two enemies, then a unit of cavalry crashing into the flank would be devastating (-3 morale from adjacent enemies, while the unit at the flank probably gets only +1 morale from adjacent allies, resulting in a total of -2, which I believe translates into a 30% penalty to attack and defense). This would be even more true if the cavalry were equipped with the accessory that gives them the Shock ability for increased morale damage.



All this talk about terrifying charges makes me wonder if I should work on a class specific skill for each of the hero classes to give them better synergy with units of their own class. I would probably move these to a "dead end branch" of the skill tree, though, so that you wouldn't be punished too heavily for using the heroes in non-specific armies.

I wouldn't mind in the slightest; knock yourself out

There are some quite good ideas in this thread. Would anybody mind if I "stole" some of them when I finally get back around to working on my Weapon Variety Mod?



Now, let's consider what cavalry is good or bad at.

• They're fast, strategically. Individual riders can scout ahead and relay information, and the army as a whole might move faster than an infantry army (though not by much, because of the need for supplies).
• They're fast, tactically. They can often pick their battlefield, or outflank the enemy and hit them where it hurts.
• The charge of a unit of heavy cavalry is devastating and terrifying. Light cavalry and mounted archers are excellent at harassing and pursuing the enemy.
• On the negative side, cavalry is ill-suited to defensive battles or holding their ground.
• Cavalry charges are also a lot less effective and terrifying against an enemy who has time to prepare, rather than already being engaged with the enemy.
  
  

Many of these are already reasonably presented in your suggestions, but perhaps the morale penalty could depend on the number of adjacent enemies or allies.

For example, let's imagine a battle of a few cavalry units against a starting army of infantry, like the Broken Lords starting army. The BL align their army in a line to face the cavalry. At -1 morale, the first cavalry unit to crash into them will barely affect their morale, as they were ready for the onslaught. The center unit would still have positive morale, bolstered by the knowledge that its flanks are secure, and even a unit on the edge would have neutral morale, since their buddies got their backs. But then the second cavalry unit crashes into them. Now the center is beginning to waver in the face of the massed cavalry assault, and the flanks are ready to break.

And if we instead imagine an ongoing battle in which the main lines of infantry have already clashed, most units adjacent to two enemies, then a unit of cavalry crashing into the flank would be devastating (-3 morale from adjacent enemies, while the unit at the flank probably gets only +1 morale from adjacent allies, resulting in a total of -2, which I believe translates into a 30% penalty to attack and defense). This would be even more true if the cavalry were equipped with the accessory that gives them the Shock ability for increased morale damage.



All this talk about terrifying charges makes me wonder if I should work on a class specific skill for each of the hero classes to give them better synergy with units of their own class. I would probably move these to a "dead end branch" of the skill tree, though, so that you wouldn't be punished too heavily for using the heroes in non-specific armies.

abmpicoli wrote:
I don't agree with the reinforcement bonuses for cavalry heroes: the main point of the reinforcement for infantry and support is that they are slow... For cavalry, it is more likely that they go to fast at the front and end up ambushed, and alone.

I think ultimately, that has to be up to the players (if he goes too fast and end up ambushed alone).



The way I see it, getting additional reinforcing positions means the Heroes has a better information network around him that allows for them to send distress signals to nearby armies faster. No one can guarantee that such distress signals are delivered faster than a mounted army (except maybe flying people).

I think that it makes most sense that the cavalry get a map movement bonus as options (bigger than the ranged heroes) .

And an extra battle movement bonus for cavalry units when they are, say, at level 6... This would increase the charge bonus of cavalry and make them reach more of the map, making cavalry do what they do best: to kill/pin strategic units and place them out of battle.



Mounted troops regards map movement, right? So it is pointless to give extra movement to non-cavalry units... I think that the bonus should be given to all units... The cavalry movement bonus must be bigger than the ranged heroes have from the start... The whole point of cavalry is mobility, after all... If you are thinking "battle movement", then I don't agree at all: you are giving an unnatural +3 battle movement that will make most units reach the map end... If this is available, this would be for lvl 15 heroes...

The end result of Mounted Troops, as it is, enables a faster movement by one point comparing to a Ranged Hero. The first level allows infantry, ranged and support to go around with regular cavalry without holding them back (not to mention making Flying and Kassais reach the speed of light ^^). The second provides the entire army with 7 movement.

Well, this thread is hexed... I'm trying to place an answer here for some time and every single time something happens when I'm saving

...

HEY, IT WORKED!



Well, first of all, I don't agree with the reinforcement bonuses for cavalry heroes: the main point of the reinforcement for infantry and support is that they are slow... For cavalry, it is more likely that they go to fast at the front and end up ambushed, and alone.



I think that it makes most sense that the cavalry get a map movement bonus as options (bigger than the ranged heroes) .

And an extra battle movement bonus for cavalry units when they are, say, at level 6... This would increase the charge bonus of cavalry and make them reach more of the map, making cavalry do what they do best: to kill/pin strategic units and place them out of battle.



Mounted troops regards map movement, right? So it is pointless to give extra movement to non-cavalry units... I think that the bonus should be given to all units... The cavalry movement bonus must be bigger than the ranged heroes have from the start... The whole point of cavalry is mobility, after all... If you are thinking "battle movement", then I don't agree at all: you are giving an unnatural +3 battle movement that will make most units reach the map end... If this is available, this would be for lvl 15 heroes...

BPrado wrote:


Another thing I had thought that might be worth mentioning - how exactly would flying units benefit from mounts? =D I can only picture a wyvern trying to stay on the back of a horse and realising how much better he would preffer it well-done. Ancients can at least claim their stomach cannot handle it anymore and try to mount the damn thing.

Throw the wyvern on the supply cart and let it sleep on the way; that way it'll be fresh when we get to the fight. lol

Buzzkillington1990 wrote:


Maybe replacing the Defense boost with a Health buff at the first and/or second level would make it more balanced?



Rallying Call (although I'm thinking of renaming it) is litterally the same ability as the Infantry Rallying Call- and Support Keen Observer Skills. So yes, it would add two more Reinforcement Points to the battlefield the Cavalry Hero is fighting at.

I suppose that in terms of HP, it could provide a higher bonus.



And yeah, I suppose that inverting the mechanics would even be too much in the actual battle when two general´s abilities could overlap.





Another thing I had thought that might be worth mentioning - how exactly would flying units benefit from mounts? =D I can only picture a wyvern trying to stay on the back of a horse and realising how much better he would preffer it well-done. Ancients can at least claim their stomach cannot handle it anymore and try to mount the damn thing.

BPrado wrote:
this looks beautiful, I wish we could play this hero right now





edit:



I have done some thinking, and I might have further considerations if you don´t mind.



Rallying Call - Are we talking about increasing the reinforcement positions for the battles engaged by the Cavalry Army, as in the cavalry would be getting faster reinforcements? Or battles reinforced by the Army, in which case the Cavalry would be providing faster reinforcement? Because I think the latter seems more fit.



I can even see how a mobile army could have better intel, better micro (lore) scouting capabilities to antecipate a battle and thus get reinforcements faster. But I think that sounds like a bit of a stretch when compared to simply providing units at a faster rate when acting as cavalry has historically acted so decively - as reinforcement.



I think it might be more of a doubt regarding game mechanics, since I´m pretty sure (but not completely) that the Support trait provides the first type of reinforcement I mentioned, on battles engaged by the Army, not reinforced.



Heavy Barding - I have the feeling Cavalry in general in EL already has a high defense considering their usual relation between atack/dmg. I think perhaps the Hero, as an exceptional unit with an exceptional mount, could be able to put on a heavier barding and simply increase his overall defense. On the average knight on an average mount, perhaps there could be a substancial increase in defense but at the expense of battle mobility. A third level could be exclusively for the breeding of superior horses, or forging of lighter plates, which could then remove the penalty, without adding further bonuses.



Overwhelming Charge - Is it on purpose the change from Tiles to Movement Point Spent? I feel like it should encourage the units to make long runs around the enemy lines, as well as penalize them for going through rough terrain.

Good call on Overwhelming; it would make more sense for it to work that way, wouldn't it?



Maybe replacing the Defense boost with a Health buff at the first and/or second level would make it more balanced?



Rallying Call (although I'm thinking of renaming it) is litterally the same ability as the Infantry Rallying Call- and Support Keen Observer Skills. So yes, it would add two more Reinforcement Points to the battlefield the Cavalry Hero is fighting at.

this looks beautiful, I wish we could play this hero right now





edit:



I have done some thinking, and I might have further considerations if you don´t mind.



Rallying Call - Are we talking about increasing the reinforcement positions for the battles engaged by the Cavalry Army, as in the cavalry would be getting faster reinforcements? Or battles reinforced by the Army, in which case the Cavalry would be providing faster reinforcement? Because I think the latter seems more fit.



I can even see how a mobile army could have better intel, better micro (lore) scouting capabilities to antecipate a battle and thus get reinforcements faster. But I think that sounds like a bit of a stretch when compared to simply providing units at a faster rate when acting as cavalry has historically acted so decively - as reinforcement.



I think it might be more of a doubt regarding game mechanics, since I´m pretty sure (but not completely) that the Support trait provides the first type of reinforcement I mentioned, on battles engaged by the Army, not reinforced.



Heavy Barding - I have the feeling Cavalry in general in EL already has a high defense considering their usual relation between atack/dmg. I think perhaps the Hero, as an exceptional unit with an exceptional mount, could be able to put on a heavier barding and simply increase his overall defense. On the average knight on an average mount, perhaps there could be a substancial increase in defense but at the expense of battle mobility. A third level could be exclusively for the breeding of superior horses, or forging of lighter plates, which could then remove the penalty, without adding further bonuses.



Overwhelming Charge - Is it on purpose the change from Tiles to Movement Point Spent? I feel like it should encourage the units to make long runs around the enemy lines, as well as penalize them for going through rough terrain.

So, since we're currently missing a Cavalry Hero in the game, I figured we could have a little brainstorming session about what a hypothetical Cavalry Class skill tree might look like. If you have any suggestions or ideas, feel free to post them here.



This is my kind-of, sort-of take on what it might look like:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Cavalry Tier 1.

Swift Reinforcements: Level 1: +2 Reinforcement Positions on Units in Garrison.



Cavalry Tier 2.

Mounted Troops: Level 1: +2 Movement on Non-Cavalry Units.

Level 2: +1 Movement on Units.

Requires Swift Reinforcements.



Heroic Charge: Level 1: +5 Damage on Hero.

Level 2: +10 Damage on Hero.

Level 3: +15% Damage on Hero.

Requires Swift Reinforcements.



Cavalry Tier 3.

Saddle Bags: Level 1: +1 extra Accessory Slot on Hero.

Requires Mounted Troops.



Cavalry Tier 4.

Brutal Charge: Level 1: +5% Damage on Units per Movement Point spent.

Level 2: +10% Damage on Units per Movement Point spent.

Level 3: +15% Damage on Units per Movement Point spent.

Requires Heroic Charge.



Cavalry Tier 5.

Overwhelming Charge: Level 1: +8% chance on Cavalry Units per Tile moved through to decrease Morale on Enemy Units by 2.

Requires Brutal Charge or Heavy Barding.



Heavy Barding: Level 1: +10 Health on Cavalry Units.

Level 2: +10 Defense on Cavalry Units.

Level 3: +10% Defense on Cavalry Units.

Requires Saddle Bags, Overwhelming Charge or Cold Operator (Common Tier 5).



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Any suggestions for what could added, changed and/or improved?



With credit to BPrado and Adventurer_Blitz.

It´s actually not wordy enough, perhaps. the way it is, everyone´s getting overwhelming charge, even Kassais. There should be a "on cavalry (class) units".





What´s the max Battle speed a unit from regular factions can have? I think it´s 7, on dervishes with necklaces, right? Dervishes are supposed to be, at least the way I see it, currently the best Charging units in the game, right? So assuming such Dervishes had the most effcient charge, it would be fair if the ability provided 7% chance per tile. This way it´s still pretty useful on slower units, and it reaches full potential on improved movement dervishes (49% chance).



just suggesting; ultimately, it´s your idea.

BPrado wrote:
I´d start the math by the average of early game. It´s very much possible to have two morale in your main fighting element of an army ever since always. I don´t think it would be too much to lower it by 2 on a successful hit, as long as successful hits are not ever higher than 50%.



That means half the times a very well executed charge will frighten an experienced warrior, with supposedly high morale and focus from having both his flanks covered, into fighting as poorly as if he was alone, but not worst. At the same time, someone with an open flank (1 morale) would have worse than regular fighting capabilities when hit by a successful charge.

Well, I've tampered with it now; what do you think? Too wordy?... What am I saying, the Infantry Ice in the Veins Skill is even wordier.

I´d start the math by the average of early game. It´s very much possible to have two morale in your main fighting element of an army ever since always. I don´t think it would be too much to lower it by 2 on a successful hit, as long as successful hits are not ever higher than 50%.



That means half the times a very well executed charge will frighten an experienced warrior, with supposedly high morale and focus from having both his flanks covered, into fighting as poorly as if he was alone, but not worst. At the same time, someone with an open flank (1 morale) would have worse than regular fighting capabilities when hit by a successful charge.

BPrado wrote:
I certainly like Mounted Troops better know. And the debuff would probably require careful math in the debuff values to not overpower charging cavalry units.



And under the risk of going off-topic, would anyone mind explaining me more about Eslek Tarosh through PM? I know very little about it except that it seems you have to change time-settings to cheat the system. I´ve never seen it and never bothered to try the trick.





edit: I just noticed I´ve been ninja´d by Adventurer_Blitz. That´s a good idea, and in which case I´m sure the debuff should have a % chance of happening, instead of a fixed value per tile. It could be a fixed % per tile, like the Burdeki. And if the ability had levels, it could increase the amount of morale lost, but I think this is pretty powerful as a single level ability.

Well, I suppose we could increase the odds of you succeding in debuff the enemy per hex you move through... Gimme a sec.



Edit: ... how much should we decrease Morale by?

I certainly like Mounted Troops better know. And the debuff would probably require careful math in the debuff values to not overpower charging cavalry units.



And under the risk of going off-topic, would anyone mind explaining me more about Eslek Tarosh through PM? I know very little about it except that it seems you have to change time-settings to cheat the system. I´ve never seen it and never bothered to try the trick.





edit: I just noticed I´ve been ninja´d by Adventurer_Blitz. That´s a good idea, and in which case I´m sure the debuff should have a % chance of happening, instead of a fixed value per tile. It could be a fixed % per tile, like the Burdeki. And if the ability had levels, it could increase the amount of morale lost, but I think this is pretty powerful as a single level ability.

A charging negative bonus could be to lower the targets morale, that way it lessens both the target's attack and damage.

BPrado wrote:
I´m going to be annonying and point out that the Roving Clans hero is Cavalry, regardless of having ranged attack.



But I agree a Cavalry Skill Tree would be in order. Among your suggestions, I would only probably switch Rallying Call with Heroic Charge. Both for balance and because I think it makes more sense for a cavalry army to have much faster reinforcement than everyone else.



I´m not sure about extra movement Mounted Troops, seem unnecessary; there are necklaces, Ercyis, Empire plans, three faction heroes, Roads of Dust, techs. They are already mounted, if they´re mounted. I assume you´re mounting them off-battle, but what would that mean for those who are already mounted?



I think there´s an aspect of cavalry that hasn´t been explored yet - it´s especially hard to fight a charging company because just looking at it is scary AF. I think an ability like Terrifying Charge could give Cavalry units the ability to lower a target´s attack in a certain amount per Movement Point spent.



I´m afraid of what would a flying hero do. ^^

Well, the RC heroes aren't Cavalry Heroes, they're Ranged with two more Movement than everyone else.



As for you other points, the Mounted Troops thing is meant to symbolize the Hero getting mounts for his army to facilitate transport; Mounted Infantry as it were. Still, yeah, I can change it to make it more flavorful.



A debuff for "charging" seems like a good idea, actually. I'll see about giving it a whack.



And Flying Heroes already exist; Eslek Tarosh, the Haunt Hero.

I´m going to be annonying and point out that the Roving Clans hero is Cavalry, regardless of having ranged attack.



But I agree a Cavalry Skill Tree would be in order. Among your suggestions, I would only probably switch Rallying Call with Heroic Charge. Both for balance and because I think it makes more sense for a cavalry army to have much faster reinforcement than everyone else.



I´m not sure about extra movement Mounted Troops, seem unnecessary; there are necklaces, Ercyis, Empire plans, three faction heroes, Roads of Dust, techs. They are already mounted, if they´re mounted. I assume you´re mounting them off-battle, but what would that mean for those who are already mounted?



I think there´s an aspect of cavalry that hasn´t been explored yet - it´s especially hard to fight a charging company because just looking at it is scary AF. I think an ability like Terrifying Charge could give Cavalry units the ability to lower a target´s attack in a certain amount per Movement Point spent.



I´m afraid of what would a flying hero do. ^^