Environment - Pollution and Sustainability - Endless Legend

Environment - Pollution and Sustainability

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Jojo_Fr

Pro

Jojo_Fr

Pro

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 2:17:51 PM

What would be cool, for those who like to see a region raided, it's if pillage improvement could create unhappiness in city, and temporary economic damage to dust. For exemple, each improvement pillaged could give -5 happiness and -10 % science and dust for the 4 turns the thing is pillaged.

Off course, each pilage would have a cumulative negative effect.

I know it's not pollution, but I like this idea.

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Mithrill

Timer Lord

Mithrill

Timer Lord

9 years ago

Aug 27, 2016, 7:17:50 AM

Guys, remember that Auriga used to be an Endless' laboratory, and THEY rather thought about what to do in such situation. Maybe they left a machine that preserved a planet's climate, but it malfuncioned an some point.

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DEVFrogsquadron

Broken

Frogsquadron / François (\franswa\) "I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas."

DEVFrogsquadron

Broken

10 years ago

Sep 24, 2015, 3:07:30 PM

OwlRaider wrote:
Entertainment is meant to do just that, entertain, not manufacture a political debate.

This is, in itself, a political statement.

smiley: stickouttongue

I don't think we'll see Endless Legend integrate notions of pollution, however, as this would at this stage either be or feel tacked on, or require untold amounts of resources to implement.

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EMW

Old

EMW

Old

10 years ago

Sep 24, 2015, 6:11:21 AM

I agree with others that pollution as such is too modern in style and doesn't fit the genre very well. Something more mystical could work, as long as it doesn't detract from the fantasy feel of the setting.

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newspring

Newcomer

newspring

Newcomer

10 years ago

Sep 23, 2015, 7:00:08 PM

OwlRaider wrote:
I agree, most of them aren't consciously doing it for political reasons, however the subtext is very clear. The subject of pollution in itself is extremely political(especially in recent years) so that implementing it in any way, shape of form in turn becomes a political issue. Don't get me wrong, the lack of having to deal with pollution is in itself a political statement as well. However that's unavoidable and much more subtle than including the issue and leaning whichever way. Considering that pollution hasn't been implemented in this game, nor in most(if not all) 4x games, making a conscious choice to include it oozes of politics, whether that was the intent or not.

The game includes the eating of other species, which is extremely political. Is this a pro-animal agriculture statement?

The game includes a faction of money-grabbing merchants. Is this a pro-capitalism statement?

The game includes a faction of zealous missionaries. Is this a religious pro-conversion statement?

The game includes a faction of masochistic mages. Is this a sex-liberal, pro-BDSM statement?

Of course not, to all of the above. Why would the topic of pollution and climate control be any different?

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natev

Newcomer

natev

Newcomer

10 years ago

Sep 23, 2015, 6:40:26 PM

I don't care about the politics-- I mean, I do in real life, just not in video games. We're imagining genocides, terrorism, slavery in EL. It's not real. Come on, it's not like healing potions say anything about alternative medicine.

I think that environmental issues create really interesting game mechanics in that they create non-military conflict. The cool thing about pollution, game-wise, is that it doesn't care about human-created borders. That creates a very interesting tragedy-of-the-commons situation, and more of those are always good in video games. Somebody upstream polluting your river is a good cause for war or economic sanctions. And there's a very interesting effect where the nature of pollution changes with technology-- your ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ neighbor might be upstream while you're in the Industrial Revolution but downwind in the Nuclear Age.

I'm not sure that EL is the place for that, though. Mostly because pollution is complicated and you just can't model everything. But there's definitely room for a Civ expansion themed wholly around pollution.

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OwlRaider

Newcomer

OwlRaider

Newcomer

10 years ago

Sep 23, 2015, 6:06:41 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I don't think the people advocating for pollution are doing so for political reasons. Rather, they want the world and setting to be reactive and evolving as the game progresses, in ways that made Alpha Centauri feel alive, in addition to giving the player the chance to alter the world in one way or the other, like terraforming did in Endless Space.

Personally, I do not share the latter desire, I think the cataclysm should be unavoidable, but I think having Auriga react and degrade as empires become more powerful and as the cataclysm draws nearer would fit with the themes and narrative of the game, that of the "End of Ages." I don't see any political agenda here (not that I agree with your premise that entertainment should be devoid of politics, but that's another discussion).

I agree, most of them aren't consciously doing it for political reasons, however the subtext is very clear. The subject of pollution in itself is extremely political(especially in recent years) so that implementing it in any way, shape of form in turn becomes a political issue. Don't get me wrong, the lack of having to deal with pollution is in itself a political statement as well. However that's unavoidable and much more subtle than including the issue and leaning whichever way. Considering that pollution hasn't been implemented in this game, nor in most(if not all) 4x games, making a conscious choice to include it oozes of politics, whether that was the intent or not.

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ZenTractor

Mirror Chameleon

I make micro mods.

ZenTractor

Mirror Chameleon

10 years ago

Sep 22, 2015, 3:07:50 AM

One thing to note is that every single faction is extremely eco-conservative when compared to a game like civilization. You can build the biggest city you've ever seen right on top of a forest, but if it gets razed/abandoned then the forest is still there. In Civ5 I was cutting down forests like nobody's business for the early industry boosts, and then paying for it late-game with poor tiles.

I like to think of the planet of Auriga either self-managing its ecosystem, or there being a pervasive psychic field that ensures that nobody ever does any really permanent damage to the landscape.

That being said, an environmental management system would be pretty fun to play around with. Perhaps with the ability to redirect rivers, flatten forests and designate waste-hexes after your city reaches a certain size. It would have to be an update of the same size as an expansion, though. It would also tie in really well to the whole 'planet is dying' thing that you deal with all the time in Endless Legend. Perhaps even a new victory condition where you can ward away the winter forever.

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Jojo_Fr

Pro

Jojo_Fr

Pro

10 years ago

Sep 22, 2015, 1:32:50 AM

I am entirely agreee with you OwlRaider.

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VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 11:25:48 PM

I don't think the people advocating for pollution are doing so for political reasons. Rather, they want the world and setting to be reactive and evolving as the game progresses, in ways that made Alpha Centauri feel alive, in addition to giving the player the chance to alter the world in one way or the other, like terraforming did in Endless Space.

Personally, I do not share the latter desire, I think the cataclysm should be unavoidable, but I think having Auriga react and degrade as empires become more powerful and as the cataclysm draws nearer would fit with the themes and narrative of the game, that of the "End of Ages." I don't see any political agenda here (not that I agree with your premise that entertainment should be devoid of politics, but that's another discussion).

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OwlRaider

Newcomer

OwlRaider

Newcomer

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 11:07:01 PM

Yes, pollution is a big problem that we're dealing with now in the 21st century. So what? Does it mean we need to shove it right into our faces everywhere we go? I don't think so. Also, dealing with human waste and stuff is not pollution, it's hygiene which is very very different. Sewers send the waste somewhere, yes, so do the manufacturies we build, so what? I'm honestly sick and tired of people wanting to forcefully shove politics(of any kind from any side) into entertainment, be it TV, movies, games, sports, whatever. It's already happening way too much and I honestly don't understand why... Entertainment is meant to do just that, entertain, not manufacture a political debate. I mean sure, if you play a game like Democracy 3 than you expect to be dealing with the politics of it all, but than that's what the game is all about and you know it up front. If that's what you want to do than by all means go ahead. In other games however? No thanks!

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Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

Winter is coming.

Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

10 years ago

Sep 21, 2015, 8:04:24 PM

Adventurer_Blitz wrote:
For me at least it is fantastic, and even better when compared to the micromanaging hell that would be ecology and/or terraforming. Things like that, I believe deserve their own game so as not to neither over complicate the game nor to skimp out on those sorts of features.

The game is so boring during winter or sometimes you have no more buildings to build until the next tech...I cant see how some interactions with the environnment can make it more boring..

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the_cat_did_it

Newcomer

the_cat_did_it

Newcomer

10 years ago

Aug 27, 2015, 2:12:19 AM

Hi! This is my first post on the forum, I've only just started playing EL and I am enjoying it very much.

I've been lurking around on the forums reading some threads and various suggestions, and there was something I also wanted to suggest (perhaps it could be something that could be achieved through modding? I haven't familiarized myself with that yet so it might be possible).

It would be great to see a mechanic on pollution! As a city expands and the population grows it should generate pollution - it would actively reduce productivity for food, industry, science, dust and resource mining, reduce the speed of population growth due to assumed health effects, and raise overall disapproval. Furthermore it would be also possible to research technology which would reduce the effects of pollution and make cities more sustainable. At higher levels the tech could provide production boosts and approval bonuses due to improved sustainability.

Anyway, it's just a vague suggestion but I think a mechanic along these lines could add some more depth to city development and more accurately portray some of the effects of rapid or significant industrial expansion.

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Rancor

Oddity

Rancor

Oddity

10 years ago

Sep 20, 2015, 1:07:12 AM

I kind of like the idea, and sort of agree that adding tons of micro managing would be a bigger bother than interesting aspect.

a thought though - there are the option of salting the earth - thereby destroying the city for at least one of the factions.

that is somewhat connected to pollution. (if rather more directly than usual.)

and wasn't there a faction that built it's very structure around consuming nature and...

you know what - none of this matter.

I just wanted to add a tidbit to the general idea.

Would the different faction have very different impact on the environment?

just... necrophages ... broken lords... roving clans ..... the rest of them.

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VIPAnwyl

Chameleon

.

VIPAnwyl

Chameleon

10 years ago

Aug 29, 2015, 4:04:58 PM

Kingsguard wrote:
No spying is not a cool feature compared to be able to change the way the world and the environnement around you evolve

For me at least it is fantastic, and even better when compared to the micromanaging hell that would be ecology and/or terraforming. Things like that, I believe deserve their own game so as not to neither over complicate the game nor to skimp out on those sorts of features.

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Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

Winter is coming.

Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

10 years ago

Aug 29, 2015, 11:49:30 AM

Jojo_Fr wrote:
What I wanted to say it's for me and I think for some persons, Endless Legend must focus on Medieval-Fantasy features, not on modern-liberal-industrial features. Ecology, waste gestion are not linked to medieval fantasy lore.

Endless Space is more modern and science fiction, so it's ok for this game, but Endless Legend should keep his identity and not go to further in modern lore ideas, I think.

You should not approve any new idea juste because it would be "cool". There are an infinite amount of new features which would be cool to add (as the spying features of Shadow expansion, or improved tactical combats).

No spying is not a cool feature compared to be able to change the way the world and the environnement around you evolve

smiley: stickouttongue

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Jojo_Fr

Pro

Jojo_Fr

Pro

10 years ago

Aug 28, 2015, 5:11:16 PM

What I wanted to say it's for me and I think for some persons, Endless Legend must focus on Medieval-Fantasy features, not on modern-liberal-industrial features. Ecology, waste gestion are not linked to medieval fantasy lore.

Endless Space is more modern and science fiction, so it's ok for this game, but Endless Legend should keep his identity and not go to further in modern lore ideas, I think.

You should not approve any new idea juste because it would be "cool". There are an infinite amount of new features which would be cool to add (as the spying features of Shadow expansion, or improved tactical combats).

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abmpicoli

Newcomer

abmpicoli

Newcomer

10 years ago

Aug 28, 2015, 1:24:55 PM

I agree production and ecology is something that is very important to model... To deal with finite resources, waste disposal... However I think that this will be something to place at Endless Legend 2, because I think it would be a whole new layer to be placed at the map...

I've worked a little on very simple environment modelling while I was at college, and we can model many things as a matter of stocks: there is a stock of trees, a stock of soil, a stock of water, etc, at each tile. And then there is the dynamics that will change those stocks: for example, rivers will transfer stocks of soil from upstream to downstream. Exploitation will hit the stock of trees... Trees will increase stock naturally based on their numbers and consume soil. Some buildings and productions will generate a drop in some stocks, and will increase some stocks that in large numbers will contribute negatively to other stocks...

All of this would be transparent to the player, except on their effects and some warning signs. For example, if there is overexploitation of forests, they may become plains or even deserts...

Some interesting benefits is that we will have dynamic maps... forest will turn into deserts, deserts may become forests... it will all depend on stocks... The anomaly terrains may grow, expand, and even relocate themselves...

And then there will be technologies to deal more smartly on those resources... For example, a lumber mill will cause overexploitation of trees, but a reforesting tech will allow to convert some other stocks into tree growth, counterbalancing this effect...

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the_cat_did_it

Newcomer

the_cat_did_it

Newcomer

10 years ago

Aug 27, 2015, 2:02:42 PM

Jojo_Fr wrote:
Hello.

I dislike this idea because pollution is a modern concept, very recent and linked to industrial revolution. Endless Legend is really more medieval fantastic than industrial I think.

Moreover, some persons don't like pollution mechanism (that is why in Civ V there is no pollution).

Pollution isn't a modern concept, practically all civilizations have dealt with it at some level (especially in regards to waste disposal, especially human waste... you don't let it run off upstream of a river for example where it can contaminate drinking water, etc.).

In regards to EL specifically, I imagine there would be a lot of waste associated with all of that mining activity, deforestation due to the need for wood as fuel and construction material, and the waste which comes from the population (the sewer system has to dump the waste somewhere right?), as well as effluent from any other production/tech/research.

Furthermore, in later Eras there is a lot of tech directly correlating of real world western industrialization - the printing press and the production line to name the two obvious ones. The ploughing stations indicate there is a organised agriculture (therefore large amounts of land is being cleared). In situations where you are exploiting land or water for food harvest or mining, I found myself thinking that it's strange the production from these mines and fisheries/farms/anomalies remains constant (except for in winter of course) because we know that natural resources tend to be over-exploited and limited, especially when dealing with cities that have growing populations and continuous development/expansion. The only conclusion in the situation is that there are no sustainability mechanics in place because resources appear to be infinite and self-replenishing (which is the big issue with mining, since those resources are limited and exhaustible). Or maybe it's magic lol.

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Caotico09

Newcomer

Caotico09

Newcomer

10 years ago

Aug 27, 2015, 1:18:12 PM

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
Alpha Centauri had it.

Yes, as it increased you would increase global temperatures triggering water levels to rise (and the native alien population boomed). I wish other modern 4x borrowed more from SMAC. When was the last 4x to have -actual- terraforming and rising water levels?

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VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

"One can only match, move by move, the machinations of Fate...and thus defy the tyrannous stars." - Kain

VIPKnightofPhoenix

Empire VIP

10 years ago

Aug 27, 2015, 11:49:37 AM

Kingsguard wrote:

Why not ? This could be a really cool feature, something unique that we have never seen before in any 4X...

Alpha Centauri had it.

I'm not sure about pollution perse, but I do agree that the fact that Auriga is dying should be utilized further than the current state of affairs, by for instance having fissures and quakes by a certain number of turns that would alter the strategic map, more global events related to the cataclysm..etc. But I do not think I would want a way for the player to restore Auriga. I think it's more in line with the thematic tone of the game to have players try to deal with the cataclysm as best as they can without being able to prevent it.

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Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

Winter is coming.

Kingsguard

Old Fanatic

10 years ago

Aug 27, 2015, 11:40:41 AM

Jojo_Fr wrote:
Hello.

I dislike this idea because pollution is a modern concept, very recent and linked to industrial revolution. Endless Legend is really more medieval fantastic than industrial I think.

Moreover, some persons don't like pollution mechanism (that is why in Civ V there is no pollution).

Completly disagree.

Civ 5 would have really needed this mechanism sadly it was maybe too complicated to implement or maybe the dev were lazy or had no ideas for it...

Auriga is dying and I dont understand why we still have no ways to restore the planet and to fight the Endless Winter.

Ecology is a major part of Empire Management, though not during medieval era, for Europeans civilizations. Just look at the Mongols (Tengrist, related to harmony with nature), the Aztecs/Maya or any other american native, they had their own ecologic policy long before the middle ages...

Why not ? This could be a really cool feature, something unique that we have never seen before in any 4X...

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Jojo_Fr

Pro

Jojo_Fr

Pro

10 years ago

Aug 27, 2015, 11:24:46 AM

Hello.

I dislike this idea because pollution is a modern concept, very recent and linked to industrial revolution. Endless Legend is really more medieval fantastic than industrial I think.

Moreover, some persons don't like pollution mechanism (that is why in Civ V there is no pollution).

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