A minor suggestion/annoyance - shouldn't "Attack" be renamed "Hit" (or "Accuracy/Acc.") to avoid confusion with the "Damage" stat and to more accurately describe what it really represents?

Stalker0 wrote:
My only feedback, which is based on ES. Please make sure the system is:



1) Easy to understand.

2) That may choices have strong definitive outcomes.





There was so much math to the ES system, and much of it ultimately didn't amount to much. Bottom line, when I look at weapons and armor, I need to clearly understand what +10 attack gets me, and if its better for my unit than +10 defense for certain situations.

I'll help. +10 initiative>>>>attack+defense.

Nasarog wrote:
I'll help. +10 initiative>>>>attack+defense.

Well: Damage > Iniatiative > HP >> Defense >>> Attack

Nosferatiel wrote:
Well: Damage > Iniatiative > HP >> Defense >>> Attack

Damage+special>initiative>*

Initiative+Special=Damage>*



How about that?

Nasarog wrote:
How about that?

What exactly do you mean with special? +x%? That's always better, especially if it goes to damage>initiative>HP>>Defense>>>Attack.

And Defense, if already not so useful, is slightly better than attack. It's the good old "[0,1[rangeisshorterthan]1,inf] and noone compensated" problem.

Nosferatiel wrote:
What exactly do you mean with special? +x%? That's always better, especially if it goes to damage>initiative>HP>>Defense>>>Attack.

And Defense, if already not so useful, is slightly better than attack. It's the good old "[0,1[rangeisshorterthan]1,inf] and noone compensated" problem.

Chain lightning, circular attack, etc.

Nasarog wrote:
Chain lightning, circular attack, etc.

Well, most specials are nice. But slowing down enemies, reducing their attack or defense... that's not so effective. It really depends on the special, then.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Well, most specials are nice. But slowing down enemies, reducing their attack or defense... that's not so effective. It really depends on the special, then.

Here's how I deal with a single unit with high damage and a special attack. I engage them first and then pile on. While it's defenseless and it's special attack is disabled, I take them out. If I have multiple units... well, I try the same, but sometimes I run. Currently, there is nothing in the system to let you/me/AI cope with that scenario.



AI minors do not engage units that siege cities I've tried to draw them out several times.

AI minors do not avenge your attempt at pacification when in their territory.

I just stumbled on this topic by chance.



I have to say one thing, 80% of your players will never read this, and for them the combat is a very frustrating experience without understanding the mechanics!



I know because it was frustrating for me before I read this. You get situations where your troops keep doing 0 damage, and the enemy suddently does 180 damage out of nowhere. It is very bad that you don't explain the details in the tutorial or ingame tooltips. The part about winter, elevation, morale, being in city districts, and so on need to be explained to the player.



At the least, I suggest you show a tooltip when hoving mouse on terrain that lists the effects. With another tooltip when we hover mouse over a stat explaining the details. For exemple if i hover over defense you should say that I am getting a bonus from forest and a bonus from morale, that would help people understand instead of thinking the combat mechanics are too random or buggy.

DrakenKin wrote:
I just stumbled on this topic by chance.



I have to say one thing, 80% of your players will never read this, and for them the combat is a very frustrating experience without understanding the mechanics!



I know because it was frustrating for me before I read this. You get situations where your troops keep doing 0 damage, and the enemy suddently does 180 damage out of nowhere. It is very bad that you don't explain the details in the tutorial or ingame tooltips. The part about winter, elevation, morale, being in city districts, and so on need to be explained to the player.



At the least, I suggest you show a tooltip when hoving mouse on terrain that lists the effects. With another tooltip when we hover mouse over a stat explaining the details. For exemple if i hover over defense you should say that I am getting a bonus from forest and a bonus from morale, that would help people understand instead of thinking the combat mechanics are too random or buggy.

Yea, we've told them before, and this should be stickier on the main forum, and the first post needs to have all the explanations in it.

Nasarog wrote:
Yea, we've told them before, and this should be stickier on the main forum, and the first post needs to have all the explanations in it.

No but seriously, how many of their players they think read these specific forums?



It can't be more than 5%, 10% top and I am being generous. Most forum goers go to the Steam forums. Most players, at least 50% never bother going to forums unless they have a very specific pain such as bugs or wondering about something specific. That means the experience of the game is unsatisfactory to a lot of people, the place for these infos are in game and a forum post doesn't cover that need.

I told them way before release the game would need a very comprehensive tutorial. But the combat system was changed very close to release and they didn't have time to update all the helpful files. Most of the items are also not balanced for the new combat system. The devs will do a balance pass as soon as they can (it's on their top priority list)

The balance patch is urgently needed. I know that DotE has priority right now, and probably for a few weeks after release, but if they do a good balance patch before december, oh man, I'm pretty certain that the game will sell well for the holidays.

Well, even after reading the thread, i still dont get everything... Is the op still valid ?

What is the use if the support action ?

Do morale bonuses work with ranged units ? If yes, why cant i see it in the bonuses icons like high ground on a unit data sheet during an attack during combat ?

Why is the additional hp from city fortification not displayed in combat (and then you cant see hox much left there is because the unit hp stays at max until you deal enough to remove that extra hp)...



What's the deal with the counterattacks and ranged units ? Sometimes they do, sometimes not.

What about the effects of an attack on a unit defending on his turn's action if he is lower in initiative ?



And i havent even tried support units yet !



Thx for your help...

I am happy with the current way the stats works. What I don't like at all are the tactical choices you can do. Basically being optimal in combat is very easy because there is not much you can do. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems mainly a matter of getting all units together (morale) in high ground. I've heard of a flanking bonus but not sure if that is in the game?



I feel the amount if unit roles is small and would love to see impr9vements in the faction units. As you can basically use the starting unit and minor faction unit to go through the whole game(you only need a ranged +tank. hell even all ranged with tanking heroes is fine). Armies have a lot of movement msking cavalry a bit underpowered

I dug into the source files and made a new plot. Python code to compute:



[code]

constantCoefficients = numpy.array([0.1,0.4,0.9])

linearCoefficients = numpy.array([-0.15,-0.6,-0.1])



def computeDefenseRatio(defense, attack = 1.0):

return numpy.clip(2.0 * (1.0 - defense / attack), -1.0, 1.0)



def computeHitProbabilities(defense, attack = 1.0):

defenseRatio = computeDefenseRatio(defense, attack)

constantProbabilities = numpy.outer(numpy.ones_like(defense), constantCoefficients)

linearProbabilities = numpy.outer(defenseRatio, linearCoefficients)

return numpy.clip(constantProbabilities + linearProbabilities, 0.0, 1.0)



def computeAverageDamage(hitProbabilities):

return 1.5 - 0.5 * numpy.sum(hitProbabilities, 1)

[/code]







So attack and defense are very roughly proportional as long as neither is more than 50% than of the other. After that there is little effect.

A couple questions... Could you possibly point out which files you got the information on the formula the game uses? I see how you arrived at your numbers, but your code is specifically designed for plotting a graph, and I'd like to see the actual mechanics the game uses if possible.



Second, isn't this line redundant:

[code]constantProbabilities = numpy.outer(numpy.ones_like(defense), constantCoefficients)[/code]



It seems to me that you're creating a new array with a single 1 in it, and then using it to do an outer product on your constantCoefficients vector, but this will simply return the constantCoefficients vector unchanged. constantProbabilities = constantCoefficients would do the trick here, if you really need a local variable for it, or am I incorrect?



Third, I'm not sure if I agree with your average damage plot... Given your formula, if we have equal defense and attack values, and thus our hitProbabilities vector is {0.1, 0.4, 0.9}, we have:



[code]1.5 - (0.5 * (0.1 + 0.4 + 0.9)) = 0.8[/code]



But by my figuring, our actual result should be 0.85. Given that the hitProbabilities vector indicates (Correctly) that we have a 10% chance to do 0 damage, a 30% chance to do half damage, a 50% chance to do full damage, and a 10% chance to do double damage, shouldn't the average damage be a simple mixture function, ie:

[code](0.1 * 0) + (0.3 * 0.5) + (0.5 * 1) + (0.1 * 2) = 0.85[/code]



Some of the elements in that equation are redundant, and just there for clarity, obviously the first (0.1 * 0) will be 0, and can be excluded given this is addition, and multiplying by 1 is irrelevant, so if our hitProbabilities vector is called hp, and its elements are hp.x, hp.y, and hp.z, the formula for producing the average should be:

[code]avg = ((hp.y - hp.x) * 0.5) + (hp.z - hp.y) + ((1 - hp.z) * 2)[/code]



Or am I incorrect in my assumption that we can produce the average damage percentage as a mixture?

Evil4Zerggin wrote:
I dug into the source files and made a new plot. Python code to compute:



[code]

constantCoefficients = numpy.array([0.1,0.4,0.9])

linearCoefficients = numpy.array([-0.15,-0.6,-0.1])



def computeDefenseRatio(defense, attack = 1.0):

return numpy.clip(2.0 * (1.0 - defense / attack), -1.0, 1.0)



def computeHitProbabilities(defense, attack = 1.0):

defenseRatio = computeDefenseRatio(defense, attack)

constantProbabilities = numpy.outer(numpy.ones_like(defense), constantCoefficients)

linearProbabilities = numpy.outer(defenseRatio, linearCoefficients)

return numpy.clip(constantProbabilities + linearProbabilities, 0.0, 1.0)



def computeAverageDamage(hitProbabilities):

return 1.5 - 0.5 * numpy.sum(hitProbabilities, 1)

[/code]







So attack and defense are very roughly proportional as long as neither is more than 50% than of the other. After that there is little effect.

Dont get me wrong, but the dev stated at a ratio of 1.0=A/D the chance to crit would be the same as to critical fail, as the chance to fumble would be the same as to normally hit. This is not the case in your graph, am i wrong?







In addition, if some of you mathjunks can help me out with these questions:



1) As stated above, at a/d-ratio of 1.0 those chances are the same, but how big they are? 25% for each? Or 15% for each critial fail and

critical hit and 30% for each hit and fumble?



2) "When the attack is twice the defense, you have 80% to do a normal attack and 20 % to do a critical. having half the attack, will give the opposite result." - (On the opposite result) Does that mean you would have 20% to critically miss and 80% to fumble?





3)"Each time a unit tries to hit another one, a dice is rolled between 0 and Attack (of the attacker) and Defence (of the target). "

Does that mean at A=80 and D=50 there is a dice about to be rolled between 0 and 130, so a rolltable between 0-130 is build. In addition the ratio of A/D determines how many numbers from 0-130 are placed with critical fails, fumble, hits and critical hits?





I would be really grateful for a reply that helps answering my questions, since i wont play this game without any knowledge about it anymore. Actually a shame that developers do not explain this exactly, but expect the players to enjoy a stratetic game, whose stratetic is not transparent for everyone.

I just bought Endless legend, and I have to say, it's quite tedious to find information about battle UI, what certain symbols mean and status effects. No tooltip, manual even touch that area. I'm finding information piecemeal by piecemeal.



Thanks to this thread now, I know what the forest status effect does. I figured out this wheel symbol, on the unit battle card next to the status effect, means unit moral. I discovered there is even something like mora,l and what it does. YAY!

Looking now for a list and symbols of strategic resources. Found a bow but don't know what resource I need to equip it, has a double claw like symbol. Strange that I need a resource at all to equip it. Just put the damn thing in you hand and go. Gave me the same WTF face when I heard the first time about THAC0 in D&D.



Questions. what is the terrain status effect of a city hex beside the +3 moral bonus? Is there a in game way to read what enemy unit abilities do? Since I can only get a tooltip over an ability, if the unit stay selected, which seem only be possible in battle.

And is the some place where all this information concentrated.

Thanks in advance for any pointers and answers.

what is the terrain status effect of a city hex beside the +3 moral bonus?

That's it. This is equivalent to +45% Defense and Attack

Is there a in game way to read what enemy unit abilities do? Since I can only get a tooltip over an ability, if the unit stay selected, which seem only be possible in battle.

There is not, the only place to see ability descriptions is in the unit editor.

And is the some place where all this information concentrated.

Best ("best" does not mean complete, up to date or endorsed ) source is the Capacities section of the wiki -> http://endlesslegendwiki.com/Capacities