ENDLESS™ Legend is a turn-based 4X fantasy-strategy game, where you control every aspect of your civilization as you struggle to save your homeworld Auriga. Create your own Legend!
I'm curious to know how "technology" works in the game in general. The design doc makes it sound like the player uses dust to achieve magical effects. At the same time, its description of technology sounds like the same description of technological advancement in a non-fantasy game.
In about every TBS fantasy game I can think of, the research of spells takes the place of the research of technology. Access to more complex armaments/units in such games (Master of Magic comes instantly to mind) is dictated by the improvements built in each city and the characteristics of such cities, such as the surrounding terrain and the city's race.
Are spells, in the classic sense, distinct from technologies, or are they one and the same? Id est, does one research technologies separately from "spells," if one can call them that? If they are separate, that would be marvelous. I've been longing for a game that has a spell research tree independent of its technology research tree.
Varadhon wrote: (1) I notice that each of these resources uses the same FIDS symbols in ES. However, there appears to be a fifth present here. It is located at the end of the row of resources and is denoted by a pink star. The only "resource" I recall being associated with as star in ES was command points. I'm curious to know what this star means in the EL context. See the city-management screenshot above for context.
The strength of any faction on Auriga lies in its ability to develop, and to do this it must know how to exploit its environment.
When the player takes possession of a region, they choose a location to build a city.
This city has the ability to exploit its immediate environment. Each 'tile' around the city brings a combination of Dust (money), food, production and science as well as numerous resources of varying commercial value.
But rather than choose which tile to exploit, the player chooses which resource each unit of population generates: food, industry, money or science(1).
To improve the capabilities of its city, the player builds buildings. Buildings affect revenue production, but can also improve the overall capacity of the city or its surrounding tiles.
The player will soon realize that the city lacks space to grow, and will have to extend its influence by building new boroughs. Each barony may extend the influence of the city to at least 3 adjacent tiles.
But each region has its share of scarce resources to exploit, and the discovery of new technologies will allow the player to link these resources to the main city.
(1) I notice that each of these resources uses the same FIDS symbols in ES. However, there appears to be a fifth present here. It is located at the end of the row of resources and is denoted by a pink star. The only "resource" I recall being associated with as star in ES was command points. I'm curious to know what this star means in the EL context. See the city-management screenshot above for context.
@ Varadhon: I was wondering the same thing on how magic would be applied in relation to technology. Even before EL was announced, after reading all the amazing things Dust can do, thought it might as well be magic, so I picture the Dust along the lines of being the spells themselves and as you learn more about the Dust's abilities, you could learn new spells.
@ Stealth_Hawk: I would just want more to increase the variability of buildings or units. As mentioned by the Devs you can make silver spears for example, I would want the option of iron, bronze, gold, etc. which each could give added bonuses.
Also, it would increase your reliability on trading or conquering the strategic resources you need, and hopefully the diplomacy will be better to make this aspect more fun .
Varadhon wrote: I'm curious to know how "technology" works in the game in general. The design doc makes it sound like the player uses dust to achieve magical effects. At the same time, its description of technology sounds like the same description of technological advancement in a non-fantasy game.
In about every TBS fantasy game I can think of, the research of spells takes the place of the research of technology. Access to more complex armaments/units in such games (Master of Magic comes instantly to mind) is dictated by the improvements built in each city and the characteristics of such cities, such as the surrounding terrain and the city's race.
Are spells, in the classic sense, distinct from technologies, or are they one and the same? Id est, does one research technologies separately from "spells," if one can call them that? If they are separate, that would be marvelous. I've been longing for a game that has a spell research tree independent of its technology research tree.
Maybe Dust is the "Mana" in Endless Legends.
Stealth_Hawk wrote: Hmmmmm, probably the one point I disagree on with you guys... Maybe I am missing something obvious? But here's why I like few strategic resources:
Lets say you have 48 techs/buildings/units/whatever that require any one of the different strategic resources. So lets say you divide that by 6 resources, which comes out to 8 things per strategic resource type. Now, if you have 12, that narrows down to 4 per resources.
So let's say you start out missing one resource type that you want. In case A, that means you lose 8 abilities, but in case B, you only lose 4. Effectively, This means that the loss of a resource you like/your faction likes, forces you to adapt and be resourceful on a planet that is pretty much depleted anyways.
So all in all, I think it gives them far more strategic weight and importance. Only as long as the strategic resources are equally powerful
Well yeah i agree IF ressources are that more important in Endless Legend as they are in Endless Space
Hmmmmm, probably the one point I disagree on with you guys... Maybe I am missing something obvious? But here's why I like few strategic resources:
Lets say you have 48 techs/buildings/units/whatever that require any one of the different strategic resources. So lets say you divide that by 6 resources, which comes out to 8 things per strategic resource type. Now, if you have 12, that narrows down to 4 per resources.
So let's say you start out missing one resource type that you want. In case A, that means you lose 8 abilities, but in case B, you only lose 4. Effectively, This means that the loss of a resource you like/your faction likes, forces you to adapt and be resourceful on a planet that is pretty much depleted anyways.
So all in all, I think it gives them far more strategic weight and importance. Only as long as the strategic resources are equally powerful
Sovereign wrote: Its to find out the combinations which are game changers ; )
If you mean something like Sloppy Sawbones or careful analysis then i agree.
Definitely. Those types should be the first to go.
But I would also like to see the 'flat' kinds of traits modified. IE, scientists, which gives +10% science. Great and all, but a little bit boring.
Now things like Tolerant and Solid Citizens aren't that boring. In fact, they really back up the lore a great deal.
So It would be cool if all the traits took on multiple roles (ofc they would be very closely related roles) and each role would back up and enhance the lore a great deal. /2cents
SpaceTroll wrote: I hear you guys. I definitely don't want to loose that customization richness either. Just what I want to avoid as much as possible, is to have traits that are not game changers.
Its to find out the combinations which are game changers ; )
If you mean something like Sloppy Sawbones or careful analysis then i agree.
SpaceTroll wrote: in each region we have minor factions, that can be pacified, through pacific or military means. in return they will contribute to your empire by giving your their traits or military units.
mhhh thats sounds indeed quite intressting...i could imagine a race/Nation that is specalized and relays much on enslaving like the TES Darkelves or emhhh well Dixieland.
SpaceTroll wrote: in each region we have minor factions, that can be pacified, through pacific or military means. in return they will contribute to your empire by giving your their traits or military units.
And can we please, please, have more than just empires in this game? empires are nice and all, but they get kind of boring since bigger=better
in each region we have minor factions, that can be pacified, through pacific or military means. in return they will contribute to your empire by giving your their traits or military units.
I like the idea of other than military pressures and something that has been lacking for long in tbs games. Perhaps it could be as simple as you gaining more efficiency in producing if you focused on something and then becoming more dependent on others for your other resources. Say one starts in a very fertile land that gives a lot of food growth, while other starts in great mountain lands with lots of irons for an industrial boost. Both could build ineffective food and industry, or effective only one and trade with each other. I see only one problem with this as with trade in general, if the system is only depending on trust and the game is won by a single person then everyone will boycot or hinder the leader, this is very different from the real world where in fact it pays to trade with the superpowers and there is no "end" game.
Some way to solve this is that trade happens no matter what, but the degree of trade and how easy it is for the people depends on the ruler. So you can put blockades up but if someone has a lot of food surpluss and your people is starving they will smuggle food if they have too etc.
my question is how will the seasons effect armies? you can't just have your army stuck in the middle of nowhere during the dark season. will they take damage if that happens? it would make sense if your armies had to settle down in a city or a fort to avoid the cold.
This project seems well on its design way, just a lore question : you say people of the winter / summer but they are different than people of the night/day? (Lycanthrope if they need the moon would be more a summer people because the winter is not the night but the fog/hidden sky).
Will it be turn/based / real time / mixed? (simultaneous turns?)
I am quite sure that you guys are going to excel in the economic/expansion side, as endless space does that very well . The only thing I would recommend you is to really put a lot of extra effort in making a good/complex combat system, where you can feel really in control of your army.
ps: I have been testing Endless Dungeon lately and although I liked it a lot, I really missed to have more control over the combat, specifically regarding positioning and selection of targets
I have an idea on how the culture influence of an empire could help him. If more an empire export his culture to an another empire more the bonus of the luxe ressources he exports are strong for this empire (more you export your culture more you export the trend of consumming the ressources you produce). This could be a 'weapon' for the non military player to force peace (and so trade).
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Steph'nie wrote: Each season can last decades and at the beginning of the game it will be difficult to predict a season's beginning and duration.
I sort of jumped the gun and asked this in the GDD 1 thread. Does this mean that season length is variable and some predictive research will be possible? Will season severity be variable beyond season related events (e.g., mild winter, average winter, harsh winter, very harsh winter)?
Steph'nie wrote: As for pathfinding: it will not be affected by seasons.
Hmm. I this set in stone? Glaciation and flooding would be fantastic mechanics.
Edit: Come to think of it, even if this doesn't affect pathfinding, it could affect available resources. A glacier could be a source of science (one would think the dark season would be the primary research topic on Auriga). When they retreat, they could leave minerals behind and the rocky hills there could be a source of industry.
I'm very interested in this game and I have a question. I played Civilization 5 and Endless space and in this two game I found that military was obligatory even for faction 'non-military' (as the Sophon). When an enemy is near victory, the only 'pressure' you can apply is military and I would like more diverse ways.
In this world, say you export food to a country and all country's food only come from your country. If you cut the export, the importing country will be without food and food production infrastructure. It's a way of putting pressure.
An another thinq is culture export. Two country with the same culture have more diplomatic bond. And exporting your culture help exporting your product and boost your economy (see USA with coca cola and fast food).
In my player experience (and perhaps I'm alone) I don't like spending more than half of my ressource on military when I want to play isolationist or science. I don't know if units very efficient in defense and suboptimal in offense for a low cost would be balanced ? I think 4x games needs few units specifically designed for defense.
But I don't denied that perhaps I miss these aspect in previous games
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I have to say that I love the idea of Quests unlocking unique tech for that game. It's going to add so much replayability and really make each game memorable.
Wow. This game is stunningly beautiful already. Just 2 questions though:
1) I notice only three types of terrain: Flatlands, hills, and forests. Is it planned to have more? I know the document talks about things like waterfalls, so thats good. But is there a plan to add more "biomes" if you will? ie mountains, jungles, frozen prairies near the poles, etc. I think that would breath even more life into the game
2) Just echoing everyone else's question: Will there be custom factions, and will that be done differently than ES? If so, I hope its more customizable than the one in ES.
Stealth_Hawk wrote: ^^ Well if you just were gonna conquer them, there couldn't really be a limit, and you couldn't replace a minor faction with another, thus starting a revolt lol
But the more function they get, the better the flavor of the game gets. So I am in full agreement
Imagine is minor faction adds functionality that only they can offer. Each major faction has it's own unique units, architecture, tech tree, and the minor factions add their own flavor.
^^ Well, if they couldn't have function on their own, there really wouldn't be much of a point to conquering them. I mean, a powerful minor faction that is disrupting trade routes can be used, and it would also be beneficial to win them over and unblock the trade routes. But a minor race that can't do anything on its own probably wouldn't catch the players eye.
But the more function they get, the better the flavor of the game gets. So I am in full agreement
Seasons: there will be season events, just like factions (minor/major) can take advantage of seasons. We're still looking at possibilities when it comes to reflecting seasons on the terrain (different textures for instance). As for pathfinding: it will not be affected by seasons.
Seh ich das richtig das das wegfindungssystem vom winter nicht betroffen werden soll?
wenn ja..... warum nicht?
zugeschneite berghänge die sich erst wieder im früjahr öffnen /auftauen.
ich finde das würde a) athmosphäre schaffen.
und b) jemanden teilweise vor ganz andere taktische herausforderungen stellen ^_^
achso wenn wer dem mächtig ist.... bitte übersetzen -.-'
Stealth_Hawk wrote: Wow. This game is stunningly beautiful already. Just 2 questions though:
1) I notice only three types of terrain: Flatlands, hills, and forests. Is it planned to have more? I know the document talks about things like waterfalls, so thats good. But is there a plan to add more "biomes" if you will? ie mountains, jungles, frozen prairies near the poles, etc. I think that would breath even more life into the game
2) Just echoing everyone else's question: Will there be custom factions, and will that be done differently than ES? If so, I hope its more customizable than the one in ES.
I concur!!! Bring on the customization!!!
Okay, another question: will combat be like ES, or since you mentioned realtime, will it be like a WH40k (I dislike starcraft) DoW 1/2?
Teodosio wrote: My comment is: I already love this game so much that my only wish is that you bring it to GNU/Linux. I already have my preferred games on Ubuntu and Rome 2, XCOM e Civ5 ports are upcoming... wouldn't you want me to keep 'that' other OS just to play this game??
We are very interested by the Steambox, so we will definitely do our best to look in that direction, but it is not at the moment on top of our priority list, so I would not expect anything before the gold release for sure
T41 wrote: will the custom faction design menu be the same as in ES
It will be along the same lines. Just the customization in the game is a bit different, where we try to have less but more powerful traits.
Stealth_Hawk wrote: I notice only three types of terrain: Flatlands, hills, and forests. Is it planned to have more? I know the document talks about things like waterfalls, so thats good. But is there a plan to add more "biomes" if you will? ie mountains, jungles, frozen prairies near the poles, etc. I think that would breath even more life into the game
Yes of course. Actually we have so far 16 main terrain types, and 7 altitudes. We are working on terrain modification by the altitudes at the moment, giving a lot of variety in the game. Sorry if we were not clear about that variety.
Nasarog wrote: will combat be like ES, or since you mentioned realtime, will it be like a WH40k (I dislike starcraft) DoW 1/2?
We are closer to Endless Space, the main difference is that the battle occur in the terrain where everything else is happening, so it gives a better feeling of continuity. it also makes the terrain so much more important.
Will the environment being living maybe like some mutated plants that could be exploited for defending an approach to your city as they are natural hazard, hunting them down which provide increase of food supplies or maybe selling them to other factions.
My first thoughts upon seeing the images of the game were that it looks a lot like Civ 5, which I love, but wouldn't want a copy of. However, after reading through this, I think Nasarog's comment is appropriate.
My comment is: I already love this game so much that my only wish is that you bring it to GNU/Linux. I already have my preferred games on Ubuntu and Rome 2, XCOM e Civ5 ports are upcoming... wouldn't you want me to keep 'that' other OS just to play this game??
We all know how eager you are to find out more about Endless Legend, so here you go! We have prepared for you a new design document on the game overview. It'll give you a better idea on what EL is about. Of course, we are looking forward to your feedback.
INTRODUCTION
Welcome to the world of Auriga, a fantasy world in which you will grow your tiny nation into a rich and powerful civilization.
This world was once welcoming and generous, a rich green jewel. However, ravaged by a terrible cataclysm, Auriga's forests burned and its meadows turned to dust. But life withstands the toughest tests, and your people, like others, was able to emerge from the ashes.
This world is full of hidden mysteries, treasures to be rediscovered, and wondrous and terrifying creatures that you can use to build your empire. The greatest wealth of Auriga is undoubtedly Dust, an almost magical substance that can turn wildest dreams into reality for those beings who can control its powers.
To ensure your survival you must dominate -- by peaceful or military means -- the other peoples of Auriga, better understand those strange ruins of vanished civilizations, and control the mysterious powers of the Dust.
GAME DESIGN
The game map
The game is played on a randomly generated world composed of hexagons of varying altitudes. Even if it is a planet, the terrain is presented in the form of a 2D plane with elevations and textures (vegetation, buildings, etc ...). Terrain plays three roles:
Tactical: each unit can take advantage of higher ground, which plays a key role in battles.
Strategic: the terrain has a strong impact on the economic returns of our empire.
Immersive: the terrain must give life to an imaginary world, be credible, and inspire the desire to survive.
We face a real challenge because we want to have a random, credible and amazing world that is more than just a gameplay element. That is why we try to encourage player immersion by inserting decorative elements that enhance the terrain: waterfalls, magical forests, ruins of the civilizations who preceded us, caves sheltering mysterious creatures ...
Peoples and assimilation
The planet is divided into several distinct areas which are the natural habitats of many peoples known as "Minor" factions. These people can be assimilated by the player so that they fight alongside him, giving him access both to unique units as well as the skills of these powerful -- if small -- factions.
The idea with this aspect of the game is to have something similar to the Roman Empire which, having conquered a people, adopted their gods and employed their men as military auxiliaries.
These choices can be critical when empires clash, and the players must try to "collect" the support of Minor factions to create difficult and unexpected tactical situations.
A maximum of three Minor factions can join one of the Major factions. Warning: To replace one Minor faction by another may cause a revolt!
Harsh seasons
Auriga is a world subjected to very long seasons that have significant consequences on the economy and on military strategy. Each season can last decades and at the beginning of the game it will be difficult to predict a season's beginning and duration.
The Beautiful Season
During this season farm incomes are high, people thrive and the economy is doing well. Some people are seen as people of summer, and tend to thrive during this period.
The Dark Season
During this season, the sun disappears behind a thick fog and night and day are barely distinguishable. Winter peoples, who need less food from the fields, take advantage of this season to fall upon on their weakened enemies.
Economy
The strength of any faction on Auriga lies in its ability to develop, and to do this it must know how to exploit its environment.
When the player takes possession of a region, they choose a location to build a city.
This city has the ability to exploit its immediate environment. Each 'tile' around the city brings a combination of Dust (money), food, production and science as well as numerous resources of varying commercial value.
But rather than choose which tile to exploit, the player chooses which resource each unit of population generates: food, industry, money or science.
To improve the capabilities of its city, the player builds buildings. Buildings affect revenue production, but can also improve the overall capacity of the city or its surrounding tiles.
The player will soon realize that the city lacks space to grow, and will have to extend its influence by building new boroughs. Each barony may extend the influence of the city to at least 3 adjacent tiles.
But each region has its share of scarce resources to exploit, and the discovery of new technologies will allow the player to link these resources to the main city.
Heroes and quests
Certain extraordinary characters, known as Heroes, can lead armies or administer strongholds. Executing these missions gains experience (RPG-style), allowing the player to choose new powers and abilities in a skill tree.
Traveling the world, the heroes can find extraordinary items to equip a player's armed forces, or discover (for example) lost temples that renew the faith of a people.
These mysterious places can also trigger a series of randomly generated quests that might be in opposition to quests assigned to other players. Sometimes, quests require instead that several players work together to accomplish them.
The quest system has four objectives:
Strengthen the immersion: The history of Auriga is rich and will be gradually uncovered by the player.
Forcing interactions between players: Starting early in the game players will be encouraged to play together or against each other, even if they have not met.
Encourage exploration: The more a player knows their world, the better they can carry out its quests.
Provide an alternative to science discoveries: Quest objectives can complement the tech tree.
During these quests, heroes can either improve their own equipment to be more efficient, or improve their armies through the secrets they have discovered.
The creation of units
Endless Legend lets you produce and take control of armies that are made up of one of five different types of combat units. Each type of unit has an advantage over any other type of unit. Mounted are excellent against melee, which are very good against ranged, who are very good against flying units, which are very good against mounted troops. Support units are basically bonus units whose primary role is to strengthen or reinforce other types of units.
Beyond this basic rule, units can be equipped as a result of technological breakthroughs or the exploits of heroes. Thus, an infantry unit equipped with silver spears will receive a double bonus: against riders and against lycanthropes.
As more equipment is allocated to a unit its cost of maintenance increases. A player needs to carefully choose their elite units, because they cannot afford to have all units equipped as elites.
Fighting
Units in the game world deploy as part of an armies of ever-larger size that are led by a general. The role of units in an army will be linked to their base type: mounted, ranged, flying, melee or support. When the army moves on the map before a fight, it is represented by the icon or image of the Hero who leads the army. The rest of the troops are considered to be "embedded" in the visible symbol on the screen.
The battle takes place directly on the game map. When two armies meet, their units are deployed on the ground with one unit per tile. At the end of the deployment phase, all units are revealed to all players.
Thus, location is critical when a player decides to do battle. Each elevation, every forest, every river, every impassable area might have a decisive impact on the outcome of the battle.
The battle takes place in real time over a maximum of 2 minutes, but the fight is divided into rounds on which all the rules are based.
Orders during combat
For the battle, the player can select an overall strategy for each unit type. These actions are in real time, and each type of unit can have at least one action ongoing at a time.
Victory in battle
A fight does not necessarily have a winner every time, and battles can last several rounds. If both armies have survivors at the end of the battle, they may decide to stay and continue the fight or beat a retreat. Therefore a fight may last a while, especially if the players decides to bring reinforcements; it is possible to order other armies to the battlefield that will in turn deploy and participate in the next rounds of battle.
Research
The story of Endless Legend lasts a few hundred years, during which we pass from an age similar to our pre-medieval into the near future. Our characters will move from bronze swords to laser swords, and we will learn to master magic from basics as simple as a fireball fight up to the destruction of mountains, transforming a desert into an oasis, or opening a way to parallel worlds!
There are two ways to advance a people: science and quests.
Science
Science progresses through the accumulation of the Science resource, generally created in areas regarded as prosperous that encourage trade and the exchange of ideas. Scientific discoveries require constant investment and can only be achieved gradually. It is often via this branch that the player discovers mechanical and economic improvements.
Quests
By completing quests, the player seeks to find lost technologies used by the ancient inhabitants of Auriga. These technologies are often very powerful, and cannot be discovered otherwise.
As the Quest tree is generated randomly, it does not necessarily unlock the same items each time. This adds an element of the unknown from game to game. The main Quest tree for each faction allows the player to unlock buildings, abilities and weapons that are unique to their faction.
Diplomacy
Using diplomacy we have the opportunity to interact with other players. There are three main areas of interaction: Diplomatic treaties, coordination, and trade.
Diplomatic treaties
These treaties govern relations between players -- peace treaties, treaties of cooperation, alliances, or even Cold War. Cold War is the default state, and it allows players to attack anyone outside the empire borders.
Lasting peaceful relations allow empires to grow their trade and research. But in order to sign such agreements, empires must gain favor with their diplomatic partners -- one does not engage in peace without being certain of the other's good intentions!
Coordination
Coordination gives the opportunity to propose cooperative strategies for combined actions between empires, such as: Attack Player X in 10 rounds, attack or defend city Y, make a secret alliance against Player Z, etc..
Trade
Trade holds an important place in Endless Legend. Resources can be bartered at any time on a commodities exchange, but you can make specific arrangements with other players to exchange at preferential prices.
Your commercial exchanges will lead to the creation of physical trade routes on land and on sea, which will be vulnerable to attacks and plundering by robbers or enemies.
But most of all, a single interface will permit players to buy and sell anything and everything in the game, which obviously affect the prices of these items for all players.
Winning the Game
In a sandbox game like ours, it is important to provide the tools and motivation to the player to play and win as they wish. War is only one way to succeed, because we will encourage players to show superiority in other important fields such as economics, science and diplomacy. In total we have eight possible victory conditions, all of which are totally different.
VIP FEEDBACK
We've had some interesting discussions with our VIPs once again (okay, tons of questions and requests! ):
BATTLES! Of course, we saw this coming. Unfortunately, we will not reveal much about them for now: a proper game design document should discuss those a bit more in details in the upcoming weeks. What we can say so far is that compared to Endless Space, you will have more possibilities and ways to automate your actions; unit placement and the terrain will highly influence the battle as well. Combats will take place in real time though all players (including the ones fighting) should be able to manage their cities and such as everything takes place on the same map!
Seasons: there will be season events, just like factions (minor/major) can take advantage of seasons. We're still looking at possibilities when it comes to reflecting seasons on the terrain (different textures for instance). As for pathfinding: it will not be affected by seasons.
Approval: the notion of approval will still be in Endless Legend. However, there won't be a tax rate system.
Minor factions: revolts aren't planned, but the idea is interesting. As for balancing: games will always be different and you won't necessarily spawn next to that one minor faction will incredible abilitie
I lose my breath from Reading about this game. Sounds like the fantasy strategy of my dreams so far. Game design, concepts and mechanisms seems really interesting, and it sonds like this will be a real strategical fantasy game. I'm in love already.
Combat seems interesting as well, and very innovative. My impression is that you walk arround with your army using only one tile at the time, but when combat happens, you Place the units out one unit a tile, then Battle happens in real time, but there can be many rounds a turn. Extremely interesting concept.
Holy.... Google Translate butchered that post when I put it in
but I actually think that is a very, very good idea. I mean, they said we will have physical trade routes now. And if the evil factions, who I am guessing do not rely on diplomacy as much, thrive during days of no sunlight (Winter, ie.) it makes sense for the 'good' races to have the disadvantage of trade routes being blocked during winter.
But I didn't see details of seasons in the post (besides in the vip section). For that matter, I did not even see a description of the scale of the turns. For example, 1 turn is 1 year in ES. But I think it would be cool if 1 turn was something like a month in EL, allowing for things like seasons, and creating a game that is 'shorter' than in ES. (I find it hard to buy that I am supposed to be leading my empire yet I'm still alive after 120+ years. It doesn't really matter, but I think it would be cool.)
So can we have clarification on this? is it just not possible? Because if it is possible, I think its worth at least a test or two.
It will be along the same lines. Just the customization in the game is a bit different, where we try to have less but more powerful traits.
ST
Pls give us enough traits so that we are able to create tons and tons of different races. Thats the thing i love so much in ES the diversity. There are unlimited possibilitys and in the Multiplayer one race rarely looks like another.
Also i saw how just "a few traits" can ruin the customizations menu.
The 4X Game "Stardrive" uses only "a few Traits" (about 20) and the Race Editor is extrem boring and there are 2-3 combinations which are the most powerfull and widely known.
Beyond this basic rule, units can be equipped as a result of technological breakthroughs or the exploits of heroes. Thus, an infantry unit equipped with silver spears will receive a double bonus: against riders and against lycanthropes.
Does this mean that I should be expecting werewolves? If so, I hope the game has a unique take on them. It otherwise looked like the emphasis was on avoiding blatantly stereotypical fantasy references and tropes.
Stealth_Hawk wrote: Holy.... Google Translate butchered that post when I put it in
but I actually think that is a very, very good idea. I mean, they said we will have physical trade routes now. And if the evil factions, who I am guessing do not rely on diplomacy as much, thrive during days of no sunlight (Winter, ie.) it makes sense for the 'good' races to have the disadvantage of trade routes being blocked during winter.
But I didn't see details of seasons in the post (besides in the vip section). For that matter, I did not even see a description of the scale of the turns. For example, 1 turn is 1 year in ES. But I think it would be cool if 1 turn was something like a month in EL, allowing for things like seasons, and creating a game that is 'shorter' than in ES. (I find it hard to buy that I am supposed to be leading my empire yet I'm still alive after 120+ years. It doesn't really matter, but I think it would be cool.)
So can we have clarification on this? is it just not possible? Because if it is possible, I think its worth at least a test or two.
Sounds great !
(and don't trust google translator - trust your german-speaking friend! )
Originally, I just spat out the two questions I had. After that, I decided to sit back, relax, and do a full (or at least more full) analysis of the Design Document.
They asked for comments and suggestions, so keep in mind that the following is just that. My opinion.
So prepare for a long-winded wall of text
First though I would like to throw in some more questions, because, after all, Inquiry leads to Conclusion, and Conclusion leads to Improvement, right? and I am not saying that these haven't already been thought of, or that they won't be fully addressed in another GDD.
Questions
1) Heros. These seem to be the life and blood of this game. If so, will there be a greater diversity of hero classes, and will they have a legitimate impact on the heros' ability to function? (
----- For example, I would hope there is at least 10 different classes, preferably more. Also, what I mean by legitimate impact, is that: While in ES and admin/corporate could lead a fleet, will the classes in EL be specialized to force the player to exploit them? So a Wanderer/Adventurer class combo would be best assigned to an army that can go fast and find artifacts more easily, and it would be absurd to do otherwise. (This would, of course, create a need for a larger starting hero pool than just 3, so the player can still get the heros s/he needs, but has the opportunity to hire 'specialized' heros.)
2) Speaking of units and armies, will they require actual population to create? Or will population sub classes fit this role?
3) Will there be a diplomacy mechanic involving minor factions? Or is conquering them the only way to go? It might be cool if a full scale diplomacy dynamic was given to the minor races, so the player would have to keep them happy with each other, otherwise your small factions might end up killing one another.
4) Will there only be strategic resources in the game? or will there be even more types than in ES? (Don't think we didn't notice the T-70 and Hyperium icons
*minor* Thoughts about Game Design
World Generation/elements
1) Increasing player experience in the world:
-----a) Variation. Variation everywhere. 10+ different variations of a terrain type gives worlds a unique feel. Ie, Mountainous jungles, swamp jungles, extremely dense jungles, A jungle with a completely different kind of tree, or Mountains: mountains that are snow capped (Yeah, I live in the Rockies so I'm a tad biased), Mountains covered entirely in snow, mountains that are a little bigger than hills, covered with beautiful shrubs. You get the point. 16 terrain types are boring if they are all the same. If they are given variants, they can easily feel like 160 different kinds of terrain.
-----b) The Winter days should feel just as magical as the summer days, just in a slightly darker way. This is important, otherwise the player will be bored with the graphics half of the game.
2) Increasing Player belief in the terrain. If the terrain doesn't make sense to the player, it will distance them from the game (for me, anyways) So temples and such should be found in highly defensible positions where the player would believe a civilization would put them. I can't give advice on how this could be accomplished from a programming perspective, but I don't think its completely out of the question. (For example, you could assign varying levels of "MP" to areas, and weighting them such that the game would rather place them there than somewhere else)
3) Cities. I can't speak for everyone else, but I found that only colonies in ES got kinda boring, (as long as you lump outposts in with colonies). I always thought it might be worth looking into mining outposts and such, which have little to no defense and allow the player limited access to the resource that is present there. I think this would help keep the number of cities lower, allowing a decreased amount of micromanagement, something that plagues the ES late game for me. (Also, low amounts of cities allows you guys to not have to worry about AI governors as much.)
Minor "player" Thoughts
1) I believe it would be for the best if minor factions were disassociated with the player they belong to, from the perspective of the enemy. After all, if you send them to raid trade routes to weaken a powerful enemy, you don't want them to know exactly who is doing it (in theory)
2) Travelers/Nomads/Wanderers may be able to add some lore and immersion to the game if they are implemented in a non-cliched way. Perhaps they could even serve to link the player to a world bigger than the map. (Although I would preffer the map to be so massive it encompassed all of Auriga, if that was doable.)
3) I assume revealed places on the map won't be able to be *fully* view able at all times by the player unless units are present. (based on how other games of this genre do it). If this is the case, I think it would be helpful, if not just cool, if there was a hero class that could evade the enemy, in the same way a scout is good at following them. For example, if you want to monitor a temple you just found before you take control of it (again, another assumption), It would be helpful to leave one of these 'spy' heros behind to keep an eye on the area, with his ability to remain invisible to the enemy being determined based on experience and what abilities the player picked for him.
Construction
1) Improvements should be more immersive, rather than just numbers on a page in my opinion (btw, great job on those icons!)
This could be accomplished by giving all improvements added effects, and showing the building in the city (the latter doesn't look like a problem). So for example, if you build a University, it should A) appear on the map, and B) Give your society more "philosophical" points, or something to that affect. So they have an effect not only on your city's FIDS output, but on their mindset as well. This would also present a way for the citizens' thoughts to be more quantifiable than in ES.
But this applies most to Defense Improvements. In fact, I thought I heard something about this, but Ill still say this: Seeing Defenses in effect is awesome. Awesome beyond belief. Especially since terrain and unit position have so much effect, things like archer towers could make a big difference.
2) Having building units *might* be cool, and would allow a new hero class specific to construction. They could either build in the field (Ie, making bridges to allow more commerce and better transportation of armies) or, they could add a percentage boost to the city with regards to it building improvements. For example, the city could get -30% improvement building time while this hero and his team were at the city. From a balance point of view, I did not think too hard about this suggestion, though.
Again, I am not trying to impose ideas. Merely, I am writing whats on my mind.
I already talked my fair share on seasons and turn scale, so I won't belabor that point further.
And these suggestions are only based on details I noted from the post, and the concerns they generated.
@ Nasarog: Exactly, imo it would be better to have more traits that affect many different things and have multiple tiers
Stealth_Hawk brought another question; will the temples be like in Civ 5 where they disappear after you search them, or could you build a city around them or rebuild and repopulate them?
Sovereign wrote: Pls give us enough traits so that we are able to create tons and tons of different races. Thats the thing i love so much in ES the diversity. There are unlimited possibilitys and in the Multiplayer one race rarely looks like another.
I hear you guys. I definitely don't want to loose that customization richness either. Just what I want to avoid as much as possible, is to have traits that are not game changers.
Stealth_Hawk wrote:
1) Heros. These seem to be the life and blood of this game. If so, will there be a greater diversity of hero classes, and will they have a legitimate impact on the heros' ability to function?
Actually Heroes are just one stone of the game's foundation. We want the Empire to be at the center of the game, with its people, research, units, commerce, industry... Of course being able to go on huge quest, and completing them, will give a big advantage, but they are not the center of the game.
Stealth_Hawk wrote:
2) Speaking of units and armies, will they require actual population to create? Or will population sub classes fit this role?
no, not at the moment.
Stealth_Hawk wrote:
4) Will there only be strategic resources in the game? or will there be even more types than in ES? (Don't think we didn't notice the T-70 and Hyperium icons
We have 6 strategic resources, and 15 luxuries. They all can be mined,harvested, stocked, and therefore traded.
Stealth_Hawk wrote:
1) Increasing player experience in the world:
-----a) Variation. Variation everywhere. 10+ different variations of a terrain type gives worlds a unique feel. Ie, Mountainous jungles, swamp jungles, extremely dense jungles, A jungle with a completely different kind of tree, or Mountains: mountains that are snow capped (Yeah, I live in the Rockies so I'm a tad biased), Mountains covered entirely in snow, mountains that are a little bigger than hills, covered with beautiful shrubs. You get the point. 16 terrain types are boring if they are all the same. If they are given variants, they can easily feel like 160 different kinds of terrain.
We are working on their variants, due to altitude. Yet, it is very important for us, that players can easily read a terrain's gameplay value. So here we have to juggle between Variety, and strategic planning.
Stealth Hawk - Good post. I agree with everything you said.
T41 - That an interesting prospect.
Space Troll - THere are 3 Fantasy 4x tbs games out right now that set the standard I think: Fallen Enchantress, Eador:Motbw, and Warlock:MotA. In all three of them the Heros play a crucial role, and each one takes a different tack to manage the Heros and their retinue. I think I like Eador's the best because each hero class is unique. Elemental has an amazing skill tree, and Warlock has the best integration. You have 3 very strong templates to look at and to get ideas from. They also handle magic differently. I like that in Elemental you have unique schools with their own specific needs, and in Warlock you have a randomized tree. In Eador, you see that their isn't a single spell that can't be countered. Another thing, there can't be any unit or group of units that doesn't have a soft or hard counter until the very late game.
No one says that you need to copy any of them, because you don't. but since they will be compared together, you need to keep that in mind too.
Strategic vs luxury resources is something will have to wait and see, but I do not think that 6 is enough. It needs to be double that.
This game has so much potential, I can hardly keep my excitement in check.
I wish I had jr VIP access so I would be in the know. But oh well, this is good enough. You all engage us and even sometimes enact some of our suggestions. Like I had stated elsewhere...
/throws money at them
Take it.. take it.. it's burning a hole in my pocket. I am so happy with you guys that I am even willing to try Endless Dungeon, and I tend to dislike those types of games.
Actually Heroes are just one stone of the game's foundation. We want the Empire to be at the center of the game, with its people, research, units, commerce, industry... Of course being able to go on huge quest, and completing them, will give a big advantage, but they are not the center of the game.
Well, I meant to phrase that in more of a way to say that your life and blood will be deprived from you without heroes. But that's my fault.
And can we please, please, have more than just empires in this game? empires are nice and all, but they get kind of boring since bigger=better, not just in ES but in real life (woohoo my affinity for Political Science just came in handy!)
Nation-States would make me so happy. A race like this wouldn't have the need to consume, but would rather benifit from staying small, "pure", strong, and above all, keep loyalty high. So yeah. City states would be pretty awesome for a game like this as well. And city leagues would encourage player cooperation ten fold.
I know Empire is often used a generic term, so I am not trying to hold it against you. But it does refer to a specific kind of country, so I am just trying to be clear.
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Analyzer Officer
I know nothing. To learn more, come visit us @ eXplorminate.net
VIPNasarog
Analyzer Officer
36 700g2g ptsReport comment
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Fanatic
True to Amplitude since the Beta of Endless Space One.
Sovereign
Fanatic
17 400g2g ptsReport comment
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Voyager
Stealth_Hawk
Voyager
23 700g2g ptsReport comment
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