Yes but does dust bonus from unhappy stack between city bonus and empire wide bonus for example?

Think of it this way. L1 boroughs are on the edge of the city - the frontier. Harsher conditions, more likely yo be attacked/face the trials of this planet. L2 boroughs are insulated from this, there is a buffer between the populace and their environment. A L1 borough might have houses for the poor and warehouses but the L2 boroughs have the guilds, more guards, banks, they are the centres of education, wealth and commerce.

CaptainPatch wrote:
I wonder about the rationale behind this one. As I see it, "Level 1" is that part of a community that has started to build up rather than out. Essentially, "uptown". Just looking at cities in general, "uptown" generates a greater amount of wealth per square meter than the surrounding "downtown" areas. Things are there that that people want to buy and merchants are more than happy to sell. It may be more crowded uptown, but it is where the cultural centers are found, jobs are to be had, and recreational opportunities abound. Downtown is mainly residential and industries that are too imposing to fit in uptown. Given a choice between having community that is ALL downtown or a community with some uptown and some downtown, I think the majority of people like the idea of there being an uptown. Dissatisfaction generally doesn't start to arise until it is the residential areas that are being piled on higher and deeper -- as in on top of the usual uptown structures. Too many people and not enough of the other stuff is what generally makes for an unhappy community. The "sea of humanity" is what makes life in the Big City unpleasant. But to go from happy people building a new community to an unhappy metropolis takes a LOT of time. So why the negative morale hit happening immediately?

So the rationale I can think of, if this makes sense, is that new districts are basically urban sprawl. I agree that the immediate hit to approval doesn't necessarily make sense, but the end result kind of does, which is that a well-planned city creates economically supported districts that generate more wealth and approval. My Vaulters capital is a dismal place because I was unaware of how this system worked, so with each expansion, I was just land-grabbing, expanding as much as possible, which meant no districts were levelling up, unsupported by any of the surrounding area. So I guess what's happening is that more established districts which are well-supported with surrounding neighborhoods are healthier and happier. Of course, in our own society, this is not even close to what often happens to older city districts, but maybe we can just assume that Auriga's societies know how to economically support their neighborhoods, so city centers are being 'built up' instead of turning into slums.

More on disapproval: /#/endless-legend/forum/9-tips-tricks/thread/3702-approval-rating-effects

Understanding expansion disapproval (the short version, for new players):



1) Increasing approval, while not yet "fervent", is a priority second only to increasing industry.

2) Don't let expansion disapproval stop you from settling a new city or making war. Another city is almost always better than the hit you take for it.

Lots of new player activity sighted. This thread may help you.

Empire expansion reduction does indeed seem to be only applied to the -10 penalties to approval accumulated for each city other than your capital. This makes those techs much less valuable if you do not own several cities, and should not be rushed, but instead picked up mid game as you empire grows from conquest or settlements.



Updated some of the OP to clarify.

The important thing is not the number of level 1 districts. The important thing is total levels per districts, and the curve to get there.



You can see that from a 10 tiles stick you get 18 levels. From a 10 tiles triangle you get, again, 18.



The candy bar is less efficient, the one you show has 11 tiles for 19 levels, so at 10 tiles you will be missing 2 levels compared to the other models.



My favorite stays the stick, since it offers a more consistent curve, when you add a district you can expect a level each time after you get it rolling.



Most of the time I am fast expanding so I start with the small triangle (the 6 tiles one) then turn it into a stick by expanding in a direction. This gives a small approval bump early on, then normalizes later even if it is a bit less efficient than a pure stick or triangle build. But it is still better, because it give extra approval early, when you need it most. Later on boosters relieve some of the approval pressure.



That being said, the most logical and optimal way would be to adapt to the terrain you have at hand, using the right model depending on desirable tiles you want to exploit.

The most efficient borough placement for approval is the triangle, because there are only three tiles that are not level 2. The hexagon is least efficient as it has six tiles that are not level 2. Most other builds I have experimented with have four tiles which are not level 2, such as the "candy bar".



Obviously approval is such a small consideration when it comes to city placement, but worth knowing.



The unfortunate part is that early game when it's a bit more expensive to maintain boosters and empire plans and thus difficult to maintain approval that way, it is also when your borough placements are least approval-friendly.



Unresized http://i.imgur.com/TDouItv.png

Can someone help me verify a theory. I am beginning to wonder if the technology and hero skills that reduce disapproval by a % may be limited to specific penalties.



For example, does the 25% reduction to empire disapproval apply to all negate modifiers in all cities, or just the -10 accumulated for each city, or does it only apply to your disapproval rating for your Empire and not individual cities at all?



I will look into it when I have time, further assistance woukd be appreciated.

I went ahead and added the information on the thresholds to the original post. They may need adjusting as people verify the information.



It is becoming clear to me that I need to go back through and make a real distinction between Empire Approval and City Approval. They are two sides of the same coin, but have unique interactions as well, and I don't feel the post currently expresses this well enough. I'll keep editing till it sounds better.



Thanks for all the input so far and keep up with the feedback and information so I can continue to provide a quality resource for new players.

Ah it is a text bug then, good to know thanks.

In fact you have a bug or you did quote the wrong penalties as in the xml files (those that drives the effects in game) the city bonus/malus are only for food and prod while the empire bonus/malus are only for dust/science.

VieuxChat wrote:
Dust bonus from unhappy ? From happy you mean ?

Yes all the bonuses stacks. So an extatic city in an extatic empire will get the Food/Ind/Dust/Science Bonus.

Yes and no. Look at the list of bonuses i posted for cities. You will notice that they all affect food and production, except "unhappy" that affects dust and science.

Dust bonus from unhappy ? From happy you mean ?

Yes all the bonuses stacks. So an extatic city in an extatic empire will get the Food/Ind/Dust/Science Bonus.

Hey guys, I've been reading a lot of threads about this topic and figured we could condense all the knowledge into one easy to read thread. Enjoy.



Approval is a measurement of how Happy and motivated your empire is. It is measured in 2 ways that are basicly two sides of the same coin, but with subtle differences. The reason you should care and be aware of Approval is because depending on your levels, you can incur massive penalties or bonuses to your FIDS output, which is essential to success in EL.





City Approval: Each individual city has its own unique approval rating. This rating will always start at 60% approval, which is content and impresses no modifiers to FIDS output. However, many factors can manipulate that rating. City Approval directly affects Food and Production output for a city, and influences your Empire Approval.



Empire Approval: your empire approval is located on the Empire Summary page. It is basicly the average of all your cities individual approval ratings. Empire Approval holds the same threshold bonuses and penalties as city approval carries, but instead applies them to your science and dust output for all your cities.



Below is (hopefully with enough community input) a comprehensive list of the various modifiers to be aware of.



Approval Thresholds:



These are the same for your empire and each individual city. City approval affects only food amd production in that city, while Empire Approval Effects dust and science in all cities.



Rebellion :

0-14

-50% FIDS



Unhappy

15-39

-20% FIDS



Content

40-60

No effect



Happy

61-89

+15% FIDS



Fervent

90-100

+30% FIDS



Negative modifiers to Approval:



1. Each city owned creates a global -10 empire expansion penalty to the approval of all cities. So three cities owned by a faction will generate -30 approval in each city. *see special rules below regarding capitol cities.



2. Each level 1 district built by a city applies a -10 approval penalty on that tile for that city only. A city with two level 1 districts will generate -20 approval on tiles in that city.



3. When a newly conquered city is taken, it will start at 0 approval and slowly gain it back over several turns, up to the maximum amount of approval available after all modifiers are taken into account within your empire. Adding temporary buffs like luxuries or purchasing city structures that increase approval do not increase the rate at which you will gain this back, but raise the maximum amount achieved once the allotted period of unrest is completed.



4. A city that is under siege will incur -10 hit to approval until the siege is broken.



Positive modifiers:



1. All capital cities start with a palace structure pre-built as the city is founded. This structure is unique and removes the -10 global approval penalty to all cities the capital city would normally generate, in addition to generating gold, providing an extra militia slot, fortifications buff, and counting as an extractor should you build your city on a resource deposit (once the appropriate tech has been learned of course)...whew!



2. Activating luxury resources temporarily increases happiness by X amount in all cities for there duration. Having multiple resources active at once stacks these buffs, but they cannot increase a city above 100%. Adding more cities to your empire increases the cost of Activating the booster effect. This can make it hard without using the market to maintain a boost indefinitely as your empire grows.



3. Anomaly tiles with a +8 bonus or greater often generate a flat amount of approval for the city that includes them as one of its tiles; usually between +10 and +20 approval. Mouse over Anomalies to pull up their details and check for approval, as it does not show up on the FIDS overlay.



4. Some heroes have an ability to remove the -10 global penalty a city generates if they are the governor of a city. These are unlocked in their skill tree. This does not stack with the palaces effect, and so they are best used in non-capital cities.



5. Some heroes have an ability to reduce the negative approval penalties in a city they govern by a %. This modifier should stack additively with any other % reduction modifiers. So 25% reduction to negative approval from a technology, plus another 25% reduction from a hero = 50% reduction to negative modifiers in that city which he governs.



6. Building up districts to level 2 status increases the approval on that tile from -10 up to +5. There are several good threads that detail efficient city building. Here is one that is a bit dated, but still has sound information if you dig through it.



https://www.games2gether.com/endless-legend/forum/9-tips-tricks/thread/3824-building-big-efficient-cities-borough-streets-leveling-districts



7. Several technologies will allow for the construction of individual city structures that provide a flat approval bonus to the city they are located in. They also generally apply various other bonuses to FIDS when approval thresholds are reached. Remember that mid to late game, large established cities with decent FIDS output benefit more from % modifiers than further flat bonuses. Approval modifiers for a Fervent (+30%), or Happy (+15%) city can significantly increase all your FIDS production.



8. Several technologies, once unlocked will apply a global % reduction to all negative empire expansion approval modifiers accumulated on each city. The % reductions should stack additivly with all others of the same kind. For example, 2 technologies each worth 25% reduction should apply a 50% reduction to empire expansion penalties. This only applies to the accumulated -10 approval modifiers collected by having multpile cites. It will not reduce the negative approval from tiles in your city created by level 1 districts.



9. Once your faction reaches the second age, the second tier of one side of the Empire plan offers a flat +25 approval to all cities for the duration of that plan. Keep in mind the more cities you possess, the more influence this flat bonus will cost to activate.



Faction Specific Modifiers:



Vaulters: when vaulters activate their holy resource booster, expansion disapproval is reduced by 50% to all cities for the duration of the booster effect. This stacks additivly with other global reductions such as those from the technology pools, but again is limited to the -10 approval hits for owning multiple cities only. Not from tiles collected via level 1 districts.





More to come as I have time and the community adds input.

The empire wide effect are the same numbers but for Dust/Science

Here's what I can tell from experience, close but maybe not 100% accurate :



Rebellion :

0-14?

-50% food

-50% production



Unhappy

15-39?

-20% dust

-20% Science



Content

40-59?

No effect



Happy

60-89?

+15% Food

+15% Production



Fervent

90-100

+30% Food

+30% Production



Those are the city effects. I am not sure how the empire wide effect intact with those, if at all.

I'm trying to find the limits on various approval status before I add them to the thread. I can verify that happy status starts at 65% approval and someone else said Fervent starts at 90%. If I can get verification of all the thresholds myself or from somone in the community I will add it to the main post.



Also, updated wording on how districts add or subtract approval for better clarity.



I don't mind a civil sharing of ideas on the why's of how the game works/should work, but this post is primarily for educating new plsyers on how the game does work. Any help or ideas in improving the quality of that information is most appreciated.



Thanks!

I think you need to look on it from a more abstracted way and what it represent...



A city in the game is a mini game within each province and would most likely represent the industrial areas of a province, be it one or several real cities or settlements. When you sprawl your Districts out you add more civilized lands that are harder to control, Level 2 Districts means more opportunity for control, cultural entertainment, job and commercial opportunities thus it counter the effect of losing control.



The Approval rate is not just peoples happiness but also a way to combat corruption and keeping tabs on people, the ability to tax them or organize them into a more cohesive and directed force to produce more stuff for less labour.



If you look at the real world both food and production was in general more efficient in urbanized societies and cultural exchange more rewarding. Keeping your cities together would simulate this fact. I think it is not good to look at the mechanics in the game as what they do but what they simulate from an abstract point if view.

I could see an initial negative hit when first establishing a new city. (People dismayed by seeing their friends and relatives pack up and move to places unknown.) But when a level-1 District is added, Happiness in that city should increase because it adds more living room, city resources, and a "rah, rah, team!" factor because the home city is becoming more awesome. A District that adds only one of no hexes might cause a Happiness hit because it IS jamming in more people into a limited area without also adding additional living space. And the only way that I can think that adding a new city is viewed as a Bad Thing for the empire would be if somehow that new city was in competition with an existing city, cutting into its revenues and profits. But that alone would hardly account for an empire-wide Happiness hit.



Contrary to the Happiness improvement when a District goes from level-1 to level-2, it seems to me that would actually cause a Happiness decrease. "Urban renewal" causes population displacement for new construction and demolition of older (usually tenements) structures. In the _long run_ it's a Good Thing, but initially more people are upset than gladdened.

CaptainPatch wrote:
I wonder about the rationale behind this one. As I see it, "Level 1" is that part of a community that has started to build up rather than out. Essentially, "uptown". Just looking at cities in general, "uptown" generates a greater amount of wealth per square meter than the surrounding "downtown" areas. Things are there that that people want to buy and merchants are more than happy to sell. It may be more crowded uptown, but it is where the cultural centers are found, jobs are to be had, and recreational opportunities abound. Downtown is mainly residential and industries that are too imposing to fit in uptown. Given a choice between having community that is ALL downtown or a community with some uptown and some downtown, I think the majority of people like the idea of there being an uptown. Dissatisfaction generally doesn't start to arise until it is the residential areas that are being piled on higher and deeper -- as in on top of the usual uptown structures. Too many people and not enough of the other stuff is what generally makes for an unhappy community. The "sea of humanity" is what makes life in the Big City unpleasant. But to go from happy people building a new community to an unhappy metropolis takes a LOT of time. So why the negative morale hit happening immediately?

It's essentially standing in for population disapproval. Though I'd have rather seen -10 approval per pop, +10 approval per borough, an additional +5 for level 2 districts. Would have been more natural, and made boroughs more important for gaining lots of resources and combating disapproval. It's essentially the same net effect as current implementation.

gap81 wrote:
We can speculate about the rational all we want, and i am sure there would be some pretty interesting arguments on either side, but the reality is that Endless Legend isn't reality. Its a Video Game,

Essentially, the "It's just a game" counterargument. I've never been comfortable with that kind of explanation. Overall, most games are simulations. They generally try to utilize a "reasonable" set of cause-and-effects. Such as attacking the units of competing empire WILL adversely affect your diplomatic standing with that empire. Don't produce enough food to feed the population and population WILL decrease AND Happiness will drop. Even if a game is Fantasy or far future Science Fiction, there is an expectation that certain causes WILL yield reasonable and understandable effects. That's why it is somewhat jarring when the effect doesn't seem to jive with the cause that generated that effect.



Is it _really_ too much to ask that effects should reasonably match the causes that generate those effects?

Yes, great post and nice summary.



I wish the Vaulters didn't get the expansion disapproval reduction when their holy resource is activated. Doesn't make total sense to me thematically, and in my opinion, makes them a bit OP. I see them as a moderate sized emoire focused on research - and this bonus gives them too much reward for being expansionist/militaristic.

Only thing missing from this guide is detailling the different aproval levels. I know fervent starts at 90%, but I am not clear on the threshold between rebelion, content, and happy.



What would also be useful is a reminder of the different effects of each level.

Great guide over all! Keep up the good work!

Thanks, fixed the typos. please point out any more you see as well as any errors as some of my information may come from dated sources and previous iterations of the game...or it may just be plain wrong. =p

We can speculate about the rational all we want, and i am sure there would be some pretty interesting arguments on either side, but the reality is that Endless Legend isn't reality. Its a Video Game, and a dam good one at that. I am willing to let the developers take some liberties with their game design in an effort to make a game that provides a cohesive and unique feel. The game by its very nature is hopelessly and perfectly imbalanced to a T...and makes for a pleasurable and markedly different playing experience than many other 4X style games of a similar nature.



I think the biggest reason for the Approval system as a whole was to create a mechanic that controls the pace of the game. Unlike many games were mindless expansion and aggression rule the paths to victory, Endless Legends system provides plenty of benefit to expanding a fairly large empire and exploiting every tile you can...just not as quickly as possible. It requires careful planning, forethought, and a focus on city management and empire building that goes beyond what many games even dream of doing. To this end it also makes the game very deep (read complicated) and strategic (read detail oriented) that requires a players careful study and full focus to get the most out of their faction during a match.



That kind of play doesn't appeal to everyone, but to some its a beautiful thing and a challenge worth tackling. This thread in particular was an effort to make one of the more important, yet not every well known parts of the game more understandable and accessible to anyone who comes across it. I hope it helps, and feel free to discuss the rationale for the who what when where and whys if you must. I will simply sit back and enjoy the view.

Just some typos, mate:

gap81 wrote:


1. All capitol cities start with a palace structure pre-built as the city is founded. This structure is unique and removes the -10 global approval penalty to all cities the capital city would normally generate, in addition to generating gold and providing an extra militia slot.



4. Some heroes have an ability to remove the -10 global penalty a city generates if they are the governor



5. Some heroes have an ability to reduce the negative approval penalties in a city they govern

Great guide over all! Keep up the good work!

gap81 wrote:
2. Each level 1 district built by a city creates an additional -10 expansion penalty to approval in that city. A city with two level 1 districts will generate -20 approval.

I wonder about the rationale behind this one. As I see it, "Level 1" is that part of a community that has started to build up rather than out. Essentially, "uptown". Just looking at cities in general, "uptown" generates a greater amount of wealth per square meter than the surrounding "downtown" areas. Things are there that that people want to buy and merchants are more than happy to sell. It may be more crowded uptown, but it is where the cultural centers are found, jobs are to be had, and recreational opportunities abound. Downtown is mainly residential and industries that are too imposing to fit in uptown. Given a choice between having community that is ALL downtown or a community with some uptown and some downtown, I think the majority of people like the idea of there being an uptown. Dissatisfaction generally doesn't start to arise until it is the residential areas that are being piled on higher and deeper -- as in on top of the usual uptown structures. Too many people and not enough of the other stuff is what generally makes for an unhappy community. The "sea of humanity" is what makes life in the Big City unpleasant. But to go from happy people building a new community to an unhappy metropolis takes a LOT of time. So why the negative morale hit happening immediately?

Please add feedback if any details were missed, are flat out incorrect, or need reworded for clarity.



Thanks!