That would be rather peculiar and convoluted. A faction that could declare war can attack a converted village without declaring war. But a faction that cannot declare war cannot attack a converted village because it can't declare war? That's warped.



To clarify, the converted village I tried to attack was in a region I had recently settled. (The villages there had already converted.) Further, I _did_ have a Peace treaty with the Cultists outstanding. However, if in general attacking converted villages does NOT require a declaration of war, then I _should_ have been able to attack a converted village with no restriction in my own region. (Essentially evicting trespassers/squatters.)

I found out that if you capture the Cultist one and only city all of the villages they converted, including ones in your territory will become passive.

Antistone wrote:
But I don't recall there being any buildings that gave major summer-only food bonuses later in the tech tree; have I forgotten some?

I think Public Graineries is one. But for sure, there are Fish Farms and Irrigation. There are also several techs that improve Food production per Food-producing hex. With Winter Shelters, those keep going full blast all Winter long without being reduced by a percentage.

CaptainPatch wrote:
Given that I only play on Endless

Careful; the devs carelessly used "Endless" as the name of both a game speed and a game difficulty. I'm guessing from context that you mean the speed.



I don't think that extra food in winter is inherently better than extra food in summer, even if it makes the difference between starving or not; e.g. if you get +10 food for 10 turns and then -10 food for 10 turns, your final population at the end of that time should always (if I understand the mechanics correctly) be exactly the same as if you had +0 food for 20 turns, and the fact that you got the +food earlier than the -food might even mean you had extra population somewhere in there, which is a benefit even if you ultimately lost it. That said, I don't think I have ever had one of my cities end up with negative food production, even during winter with zero workers assigned to food.



If it causes "+food in summer" bonuses to work during winter, that could make a noticeable difference in the early game, where the +10 food from Seed Stores might be a substantial fraction of your city's total food output. But I don't recall there being any buildings that gave major summer-only food bonuses later in the tech tree; have I forgotten some?

Antistone wrote:
Winter gives -1 food on terrain with food (at least initially, in my experience). Later on, it may give additional food penalties (such as -25% food on city), and it's not clear whether Winter Shelters protects against those as well

The most distinctive thing I've noted is that even in Winter, a city's population with Winter Shelters keeps on growing in Winter. It also makes a 7-hex location with only 4 or 5 one Food values viable. Given that I only play on Endless, Winter can last between 20 to 30 turns. That's a long time with a significant Food penalty in effect. (I had also been assuming that the production penalty was nullified by Winter Shelters, but from what you say I was apparently in error.) In cities that don't have Winter Shelters, I would normally have to divert some population from Industry to Food just to keep people from starving. I count those people NOT having to be assigned to Food production as being that much more benefit from the Winter Shelters. Further, from what I've seen, it seems like other Summer-only Food production facilities keep on producing during the Winter. (It's the only way for me to explain that my larger cities are still producing several hundred food during the Winter turns.)

CaptainPatch wrote:
I used offset "Winter Shelters" (10) -- perhaps one of the most valuable ten point investments I've seen

Really? Hm.



From a quick check in the faction editor, Winter Shelters appears to be a tech that unlocks a building that makes a city immune to winter food penalties. I haven't actually used it, and it's not clear from the editor whether selecting Winter Shelters for your faction actually gives you the tech or only the right to research it (it's not in the starting tech category, but its popup says "available and unlocked", which matches the popup for all starting techs and none of the other non-starting techs, which say "available, to unlock").



But Food Efficient (+1 food on terrain with food) is 25 points. I realize that something could technically be "the most valuable ten point investment" even if it is a thousand times worse than a 25-point investment, but theoretically value should be proportional to the number of points, so Winter Shelters "ought" to be worth 40% of Food Efficient.



Winter gives -1 food on terrain with food (at least initially, in my experience). Later on, it may give additional food penalties (such as -25% food on city), and it's not clear whether Winter Shelters protects against those as well (the hero skill "Cold Operator" doesn't appear to, but seems like it should--I reported that as a bug here).



If you're getting -1 food on terrain with food and +1 food on terrain with food, those should cancel out, so Food Efficient appears to provide all the same benefits of Winter Shelters during winter (at least in the early game). But Food Efficient also provides that same benefit in summer, while Winter Shelters does not.



Would you say that winter is in effect during 40% of all turns in your games? In my games so far, I believe it's been less than 20% (summers lasting >25 turns and winters lasting ~5--and you start in summer, which is important because early-game bonuses have more time to compound). Which suggests Winter Shelters is probably worth more like 20% as many points as Food Efficient, not the 40% it actually costs.



If it does block the "-25% food on cities" effect, too, then it may be worth a bit more...but then again, Winter Shelters also presumably cost industry to build in each city, cost dust to maintain (even in summer), are rendered redundant if the governor has Cold Operator, and benefit any enemies who manage to capture your city--none of which are true of Food Efficient. So I still have a hard time seeing how Winter Shelters could possibly be worth 40% as much as Food Efficient.



If I'm right, does that make Winter Shelters overpriced, or Food Efficient underpriced? Not sure. If Food Efficient is underpriced, then Industry Efficient, Dust Efficient, and Knack for Knowledge probably are, too. If Winter Shelters is overpriced, then a lot of other technology traits may be, too.



Or have I undervalued Winter Shelters in some way?

Ulto wrote:
"Unable to declare war" is only worth 5 points and believe me, it is not worth it at all.

I had been thinking that it was actually ten points, but checking the New Game stats, I see that I used offset "Winter Shelters" (10) -- perhaps one of the most valuable ten point investments I've seen -- with "Make trade, not war" (-5) and "Spendthrifts" (-5). Well worth the investment in my opinion. Unless a player is determined to conquer the entire map, I don't see an actual _need_ to be able to declare war. Just make sure the Cultists aren't in the mix.

In Endless legend, you can kill anything as long as you stay out of the player's territory.

If I remember correctly : "Unable to declare war" is only worth 5 points and believe me, it is not worth it at all.

True about the Hero, but it's nice having that +1 attacker, especially when ALL units have a higher Initiative than any of the opponents. Life is soooo much easier if my archers can take down nearly all opponents before they have a chance to move. Even better, all of the army pluses the Hero can provide makes the units much more potent.



_Did_ get a couple armies back over to that side of the map. And a good thing too, as the villagers were averaging about 6th level or higher. Plus any nearby Cultists armies roaming the area would come in as reinforcements. Had one battle where the village had FOUR waves of reinforcements. The reinforcements really didn't help them at all because once I blew through the four villagers, the reinforcements were arriving only two at a time because of the two reinforcement entry hexes limit. As a result, my six units + Hero eliminated about 20 units overall.

You don't actually need a hero to attack (or bribe/parley) a village, you can do it with any army. (Though the hero can earn some XP if they are leading.)

Antistone wrote:
I haven't played roving clans yet--are they unable to renounce a peace treaty and return to cold war, or just unable to declare "hot" war? If you can go to cold war, I would try that. If not, well, I guess you have to be careful who you sign a peace treaty with.

As far as I know, it is just that they cannot declare outright war. (I used the trait in a Custom design, rather than playing the Roving Clans.) I imagine going to Cold War (which is the closest thing to "Neutral") would remain an option.



The Cultists dropped the Peace status down to Cold War, but I haven't had any Hero-led armies anywhere in that region. I'll have to get one over there and see if I can un-convert some of those villages!

Well, the normal rules for fighting are:



war: you can attack that player's armies anywhere

cold war: you can attack that player's armies in your territory or neutral territory, but not in their territory

peace: you cannot attack that player's armies



It wouldn't be terribly surprising if converted villages work the same way--that is, you can attack them in cold war (except in their own territory), but not if you have a peace treaty.



I haven't played roving clans yet--are they unable to renounce a peace treaty and return to cold war, or just unable to declare "hot" war? If you can go to cold war, I would try that. If not, well, I guess you have to be careful who you sign a peace treaty with.

There's an approach I hadn't thought of. I'll have to give that a try.

CaptainPatch wrote:
I ran into this again because the Cultists came up as a Random. (I thought I had specified each faction, but obviously I hadn't.) The ONLY way to eradicate a converted village is to Attack it. That in turn requires that the player MUST be able to Declare War, or already be at war with the Cultists. (Anyone ever see a game where the Cultists Declare War? I would imagine that they just get by with converting villages, so no need to Declare War.) Unfortunately, my Custom race took the Roving Clans limitation of "Unable to Declare War". (I needed the extra 10 points for something else.) Which means that there is absolutely nothing that I (or the Roving Clans) can do to get rid of those darn converted villages.

You can always buy mercenaries and make them privateers (Era II research for clans and Era IV for everyone else, IIRC) - that way you can attack other factions without declaring a war on them, because these troops will count as 'independent' or neutral. That's how you win with Roving Clans the agressive way

Title says it all. Some other faction is converting villages in regions where it has no city, and likewise is building extractors in regions where it has no cities. If I build a city in that region, aren't they then trespassing/squatting? I'd like to take control back, but I'd rather not start a war to do so.

In my Vaulters game, I could attack converted villages in unclaimed territory, but could not attack converted villages in the Cultist's territory. I didn't have the chance to try attacking converted villages in my territory or a third parties territory. If that isn't how it worked for you, then it must be a hidden side-effect of the "can't declare war" trait.

Thalur wrote:
I don't know how the "unable to declare war" limitation works, but without it you don't need to be at war with them to attack the villages, it works just fine at cold war (at least for the ones not in their territory).

That's not how it worked with me. I initiated an Attack on a converted village and got a message that read "War Declaration Impossible -- In order to attack, you would need a declaration of war, but your faction doesn't have the right to do so." [Exactwording.]

____________________

A further complication: I had a quest tied to a specific village. (Too Many Chiefs) But before I got back to that village to complete the quest, it was converted. Now I can't Parley with the village and I can't close the outstanding quest.

I don't know how the "unable to declare war" limitation works, but without it you don't need to be at war with them to attack the villages, it works just fine at cold war (at least for the ones not in their territory).

I ran into this again because the Cultists came up as a Random. (I thought I had specified each faction, but obviously I hadn't.) The ONLY way to eradicate a converted village is to Attack it. That in turn requires that the player MUST be able to Declare War, or already be at war with the Cultists. (Anyone ever see a game where the Cultists Declare War? I would imagine that they just get by with converting villages, so no need to Declare War.) Unfortunately, my Custom race took the Roving Clans limitation of "Unable to Declare War". (I needed the extra 10 points for something else.) Which means that there is absolutely nothing that I (or the Roving Clans) can do to get rid of those darn converted villages.

Wiping their one and only city is usually best option and other players are more then happy to help you wipe them off the face of the game.