Umbral Choir Making-Of, Pt 2: Inside a Game Design meeting

first vision going to be soooo interesting, i cant wait!

I love you guys, but you've really got to do something about making the AI understand the systems it uses better.  Halfway through a game, the AI just falls apart vs. a human on normal and hard.  Please, please put more effort into the AI so we don't need to rathet it up to insanely cheaty mode for competition.  

Note - I'm not even that good of a strategy gamer.

I think a race that is virtual in beeing sound really cool

Beeing able to manipulate and spread insecurity over some sort of propaganda into other players systems.

Also able to take over planets via overthrowing the goverment and controlling them behind the scenes... (kind of like a puppet planet)

To play like you are the one big baddy in the chair that controlls everything without ever be seen.

The virtual aspect is so that this race could only have one home system and have almost unlimited population there due to them only beeing data.

They could be a sideproduct to the sophons enfer who broke free

An idea that could be fun for the hidden approach : As they can settle systems without beeing noticed, they could be focus on expantion victory by making traitors systems counting as colonized systems. So they conquer all systems of the galaxy even if these systems seem to be in control of other factions.

As for their secret start-system it can be :

-a system outsid of any constellation (it allow to have a special system fitting with the faction, with a special strating planet, as for other factions, but it mean that exploration may be complicated without some modification on the UC tech-tree).

-a system with no special starting planete, just randomly choose in the galaxy (easier to balance for exploration but how to adapte the conquest victory ? By making a ordinary planete into a special starting planete, but hidden for other players ?).

non agressive playstyle you say? Hmm, I would like that feature introduced myself. As far as I can see practically all factions end up killing each other =D

Vision 1: The Hidden Approach 

Suggestions:  Perhaps the UC are so Incomprehensible that enemies cannot exactly figure out which system is their home system.  Maybe the UC are so advanced they are able to create shield systems that lure enemies to them and masquarade as the home system, but are just a clever distraction.  This could even induce some sort of Madness in the enemies that effect their gameplay with a malus.

Vision 2: The Disguise Approach 

Suggestions: Maybe the UC aren't only able to mimic other factions, but also minor factions and even Weather-like anomalies.  This would make enemy players very suspicious of all features of a planet, knowing that any of them could be the UC in disguise.  Perhaps this could require an advanced technology to perform a more thorough scan, like when you do a security check on cities in EL.

I feel like Switzerland it.... should be called Switzerland if we go with option A)

Option B) Oh yea... thats the one.  Always the hard way. 

and @ Lo Fabre :P LOL

Amplitude, I really, really, love you guys.

The next step was to tackle the identified problems: how do you make a hidden faction confront others and hold territory on the map? The answer came naturally with the feature we’ve chosen for spying, and that we hope you’ll like. We can’t give away too much, but we can at least let you know it will mainly take place in the scan view. It’s totally possibe that the UC’s territory will be more prominent in scan view than in galaxy view… but we still have a lot of work and testing to do before we can tell you that for sure.

So what about if the UC can take over a system. If it can siphon resources, why not just take it all and basically control it? It could appear as if the planet had really bad production which could make the AI or player create more infrastructure and the UC can just bask in all the resources they have gained. Now how to get rid of them frm your system is something I am too lazy to think of at 3 in the morning so Ill just get back to studing for chemistry quizzes and stuff.

I too enjoyed the thought of the first one more than the second. The asymmetrical faction thing is absolutely what Amplitude is best at (the biggest selling point of the Endless games, outside the aesthetic and world building) so I can't wait to see what they've come up with!

The second also would depend pretty heavily on AI/player interaction. If you got the positioning and such of your systems and fleets just so then you might be able to fool a player, but otherwise nope. And I don't know if the AI can really handle being "fooled" in a satisfactory way. Would you really have been able to do Illuminati shenanigans and incite - or sway - wars between them, and have it feel as intended? Or would it just come off as you being able to simply wipe away both other factions but choosing one bc that's how your faction works?

When I read about "population merging" I thought that this would be an awesome idea for Tall playstyle for every faction, not just the UC. 

As I have said in my "making tall playstyle viable" thread, we do need more opportunities for empires to develop their systems. If all empires could merge their pops into bigger pops per system, food would finally be more useful and you could have a choice between sending your population away, or merging them and having bigger FIDSI because of % bonuses that way!

The Disguise Approach could be fun, but very hard to play and, indeed, very agressive. The hidden approach looks easier to play and very "ghostly". I prefer this one.

But having one doesn't mean that nothing in the other may be intresting.^^

It was all going great but as soon as I read " gameplay in a few months" I was like this  >=|

I personally like the idea of vision 1 more as I'd enjoy a more subtrafuge faction one that allows mind games etc like how the Mowgar and Forgotten worked in EL.

A few ideas I have had are:

1.have starting system dissconected to everyone and hidden so you would need to scout it with probes to find it and even then it wouldnt be obviouse that UC are there

2.have UC start with warp travel so they can get out of thier system

3.maybe have thier scout ships be invisible requireing a new detection building or something present to reveal them

4.maybe have thier fleets invisble as well unless they do some form of interaction but weaker than other empires equivilant ships so you would want to flank systems or ambush ships and weaker armadas this would allow for gaurilla tactics.

5.have a privateer esc function that allows you to hide your fleets as pirates much like the vaulters can do so no one knows if it is you or not

6.Be able to cause dissent on planets etc(rebbellions) and then mind control the rebels much like morgawr do with cats paw/dissent

7.Since they are ment to be aincent and hidden allow them to know the start locations of all empires like how the drakken/ameboa did this would allow them to plan where to send spies.

8.Maybe give them a higher cap on thier blockade bonus so that they can generate more income with thier hidden/disgused(privateers) to also add to thier subtrafuge and stealthy tall status.

9.To encourage tall play maybe give them a bunch of very strong buildings but massive expansion penalty like how the Ally function in EL

Yet another good Dev Blog that I did not get a notification for, but otherwise cool stuff here

I really love the first idea and I m glad you decided in favour of it! Tactics to play factions tall is the one thing still missing in ES2 in my opinion. So I cannot wait to try out the new faction! :)

 have an idea on how to make vision 1 less passive.  These people predate the Endless right?  So perhaps they lack the affinity for dust that the Endless bestowed upon other factions (one way or another).  So their Haunts, on their own, have miserably low dust production (their capital must have normal dust production to compensate) but they can use the "traitors" to also subtly siphon dust off of enemy planets.  The enemy would not get a notification that they are being siphoned, they would just have to check up on their detailed breakdown of dust income and see that they are losing dust to "mysterious causes" or something like that.

As for vision 2, it doesn't need to be an "aggressive" playstyle, but it can be.  If the UC systems have a 1 turn production item that toggles them from a "virtual" to a "physical" system, then it allows the UC to expand unseen, but briefly appear to produce a fleet, then hide again.  Let's say that enemies can colonize on a "virtual" UC colony.  Similar to vision 1, the FIDSI of that system would be siphoned to the "virtual" colony, but it loses the ability to transform into a "physical" colony.  Therefore on smaller maps where an opponent is expanding rapidly, say a UE or a Riftborn, then the UC has the option to play defensively, by revealing themselves into a "physical" colony to stop enemy expansion.

I love the idea of the "virtual/physical" toggle, but my biggest issue with vision 2 is the player interface.  How will UC players choose who they disguise as, or will it be random?  Will UC vessels be disguised in the battle simulations?  That might prove difficult to implement, as the layout (and therefore capabilities) of UC vessels will no doubt differ from those they are trying to impersonate.  If the results of a battle are calculated by the simulation, then implementation of that idea might be impossible, but if the simulation just shows the results of the calculations, then its possible to make this happen.

Honestly, I'd prefer vision 2, just as long as we nix the whole idea about disguising.  The togglable hidden systems idea makes them sufficiently unique in terms of gameplay, but not so unique that they would be difficult to pick up and play.

Several cons for Vision 2, especially in regard to diplomacy manipulation if I understood what I read correctly: 

The AI likely won't be able to handle disguises, both using and detecting them which becomes a big problem if it's the faction's main shtick.

In PvP (or Umbral Choir AI against player) you run into same risks as the Roving Clan privateers in EL: namely that despite their disguise the ownership is not too hard to figure out due to positioning, player communication and possibly other factors like unit stats. The problem is also compounded further by disguising as another faction and sheer scale. How do you realistically disguise immobile systems and fool a player into thinking a specific normal system in certain position isn't owned by the Umbral Choir? What about systems that are being colonized? Alternatively, if you want the Umbral Choir to have disguised systems all around the galaxy instead of expanding in their own neighborhood and instantly giving away their general position, how do they defend their spread out empire without Vaulter teleportation?

• tl;dr Condensed empire is an instant giveaway to UC's general position regardless of disguise, while a spread out empire is very difficult to defend without turning UC into Vaulters movement wise.

How do you handle war and other diplomatic relations when disguised as another empire and not just as generic pirates? You can't attack in enemy territory in anything but war or cold war with Religious sticky law, or with a hypothetical unique ability that allows the Umbral Choir to ignore these limitations. But either way that also beats the point because if you see disguised ships attacking in your territory, ignoring normal game rules (i.e. the actual diplomatic relations you have with a faction being disguised as) you can instantly recognize them as belonging to the Umbral Choir unless the empire being disguised as already has the same exact relation to the victim, i.e. war. Alternatively you could give the Umbral Choir the ability to directly manipulate other empires' diplomatic relations (essentially declaring war in place of the disguised empire) and spark a conflict that way but it comes with its own share of major issues as well. 

• tl;dr Conflict with actual diplomatic relations between empires being disguised as vs. diplomatic relations with UC, can make UC easy to spot when they disguise themselves as other empires. On the other hand if UC abide by existing diplomatic relations it makes disguised ships only useful in an already ongoing war.

On the other end how does a player who already knows a disguised system is actually owned by Umbral Choir declare war and attack them? Declare war on the Umbral Choir which is an instant giveaway? Since the attacking player can obviously only invade and move in systems of opponents they're actually at war with, and not the hapless victim being disguised as unless they happen to have the same diplomatic status. Basically the invading player can just fly from system to system in order to check out whether they belong to UC. Or is the player forced to declare war on the main faction being disguised as, despite knowing it's not actually their system? That seems to open up stuff for abuse as well.

• tl;dr How can diplomatic relations be handled when a player wants to attack disguised UC territory?

Vision 1 and stealth playstyle definitely seems like the more realistic approach without hitting as many roadblocks.

Touko wrote:

Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Alright, these are my notes: 

Vision 1 pros:

• Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
• Strong asymmetry

Cons:

• Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall

Vision 2 pros:

• Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
• Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

• Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
• Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success

I did pretty good, dont you think?

:)

LOL

i realy do like the second vision, wonder how the empire you disguised as see you.
and i think i have a cool idea how to make them not just another "agressive" faction.

ok, hear me out.
how about giving a small fleet the abillity to "HIDE" in a natural/frandly/"caldwar" system. it's will give you vision on that system, and the abillity to perform a "Sneak Attack".
in wich will give your fleet a big fat combat bonus for this battle only. (but only small fleet can hide, less then your cap for sure)

now there game play will revolving more about seting Traps , compared to the "agressive" playstyle we all know and love. still an agressive faction, but in a different way.

OK OK SOME HASTY THOUGHTS HERE

Vision 1. Wow that one is cool! I can imagine their special home system as an isolated node and them starting with baryonic shielding researched. Their home system can have a huge vision radius so that they can find other constellations. It gives me some illuminati vibe, like this secret court where they rule the whole universe through spying and sabotage..

Pros:

• Very lore friendly, given that other factions could have never heard of UC before.
• Counteracts early agression
• Home system can be a 10 planet supersystem??? *_*
• Honeycomb Scope finally useful? xD

Cons:

• Risk of a non-interactive gameplay for other players (Where is my enemy??? o_O)
• Super tall factions are weak to obliteration as it is..
• Population merging sounds like Horatio?

Vision 2. Don't feel like diplomacy is good enough in this game to support this kind of gameplay. Also, that kind of stuff feets some digital race more. But, anyway:

Pros: 

• You could send disguised populations to another empire's system to grow here like viruses and tear its economy apaaaart!!!
• You could use other empires' unique traits and affinities??

Cons: 

• No reason to keep your systems "virtual"?
• That kind of disguise can be easily uncovered, unless you can somehow move your systems..

@Leothehero2110

AI won't be able to handle it properly

honestly, i think this faction will be awesome regardless, but i have a though. since this empire is all about trickery, what about ‘fake’ hyperlanes. you can create ‘hyperlane links’ between 2 close systems, hide it until necessary, then release it on an enemy when it is opportune to you, and make something ‘go wrong’. this would automatically be planned on the ship router, so any unobservant players/ AI would fall into it. now, for the ‘go wrong’ part, how about causing a 50% health removal on all ships that used the ‘hyperlane’ due to a malfunction in the hyperdrive and removing all the movement points.

now, we can either get the hyperlane to disappear, oooooor the hyperland becomes visually colored red to the player that crossed it, and they will no longer be able to traverse it. this is so that the player themselves can use it to trick other players (say do ctrl click to move a fleet across while being chased, and the enemy tried to use the fake hyperlane thinking its real).

also, i suggest ‘hiding’ hyperlanes as an option too, to make navigation around the systems more difficult for enemies in the early game, although the umbral choir can still use it themselves.

also, as you mentioned, maybe the hyperlanes would have an indicator if viewed in the scan mode that something is wrong with them without traversing them.

also, what about ships built in “traitorous systems”? maybe you can get them to have a hidden malus when fighting your ships, or maybe apply maluses at will (say, sabotageing them while they are fighting someone else).

Wasn't thinking 'bout the pros and cons, but when i saw your two vision, for me it was directly the first vision. And with the pros and cons, it stays THE one for me. I hope this will go on the update, and i really want to test it!

The stuff at the end there reminds of Star Wars: Empire at War:Forces of Corruption, how one faction could weave a web of corruption across every system in the map. I definately love playing tall and being sneaky so you have my interest.