Logo Platform
logo amplifiers simplified
Frogsquadron

Frogsquadron

6 years ago Sep 19,2018, 14:32:17 PM

Umbral Choir Making-Of, Pt 2: Inside a Game Design meeting

Reply
4 576 Views
31 Comments

Hey everyone,


This blog post is the second of a series focusing on the creation process of our upcoming Umbral Choir. We will be covering the game design aspect, then the art, and if everybody's on their best behavior, finish with a G2G vote or two! Ever wondered how the secret sauce was made? Here's your chance!


Today, we are stepping into a game design meeting and looking at how decisions are made.





The stakes for this meeting were pretty high: in the balance, the main gameplay attributes of the Umbral Choir. The ES2 Game Design team had created two visions of the faction, both ambitious and bold new designs, but each had its drawbacks. Today's meeting was about which vision the team would eventually go for, with Spacetroll making the final call. Let's take a closer look at them!



Vision 1: The Hidden Approach (Umbral Choir's Ghillie Suits)


The hidden approach is about playing as tall as possible, kind of like Endless Legend's Cultists. To achieve this, it uses features like:

  • Population merging, allowing the Umbral Choir to keep "growing" while remaining withing the confines of a set system
  • This set system is their unique system, hidden from the rest of the galaxy. In case of emergency, this system can be evacuated
  • The faction relies on a mix of "haunts" (all names between brackets are placeholders), which are systems secretly settled by the Umbral Choir but appear empty, and "traitors" that siphon resources off of the systems they have infiltrated



Vision 2: The Disguise Approach (Umbral Choir's Enemy Uniform)


The disguise approach is about pretending to be another faction, and blending in with them. To achieve this, it uses features like:

  • The ability to disguise its systems & fleets like somebody else's, and mess up diplomacy
  • Systems that start in a "virtual" state and need to be disguised into somebody else's to become "physical" systems
  • Fleet construction is only possible on systems that have a physical presence
  • Otherwise normal number of systems and economy



At these stages, the two visions sound amazing and we can picture the way they would play out. When you can picture yourself picking up this faction and defeating your best frenemies? That's when you know you've struck design shinies. Not all that glitters is gold, though, and both of these have drawbacks, either in terms of gameplay, or in terms of production. Some of them are more significant that others. Remember: if it's a cool idea but it's almost impossible to make, it's not a cool idea, it's a cool dream.


Let's play a game, you and I. Grab a piece of paper, or open Notepad. Put on your thinking cap. Look at each vision above, and find a couple of pros and cons for it. We'll see under the break below if you've found the same reasons why each design can work, and can be problematic, as our designer team.





Here is a picture of Jhell holding a bunch of knives, just so you don't see our answers by accident.

He looks so happy!



Happy with your answers? Alright, let's look at what you got. Well, sorry, we can't *actually* do that, share your findings in the comments if you want to compare notes. Here's what we found for each vision.



Vision 1: Hide-&-Seek Superchampions

Pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall


Vision 2: Masters of Disguise

Pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


As you can see, each proposition had pros and cons. The first one was very innovative, and the designers really wanted to try and design a tall faction as this is a recurring demand from the community, but the inherent "hidden" nature of the gameplay created other risks, like passivity, or a lack of interactions with other players.

On the other hand, the second approach was way more agressive in the playstyle, in a subtle way (not Hissho or Cravers-like). However, this came with other constraints that didn’t allow the faction to have a very asymmetrical economy, and with the risk of having a high AI dependency for this approach to succeed. Therefore, we decided to try our hand at innovation and go for the hidden approach!


The next step was to tackle the identified problems: how do you make a hidden faction confront others and hold territory on the map? The answer came naturally with the feature we’ve chosen for spying, and that we hope you’ll like. We can’t give away too much, but we can at least let you know it will mainly take place in the scan view. It’s totally possibe that the UC’s territory will be more prominent in scan view than in galaxy view… but we still have a lot of work and testing to do before we can tell you that for sure.



More on gameplay in a few months... and more on the Umbral Choir next time, with a blog in which we'll show you how we created the art of the faction!



Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Copied to clipboard!
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 2:13:36 AM

My biggest issue with vision 1 is that it might be TOO unique.  It would also give the UC the exact same problem that plagues the Horatio and Vaulters.  Their difficulty would be dependant on the map settings.  For example, if there are few/no minor factions, the Horatio suffer.  If there are few/no pirates, the Vaulters lose one of their biggest advantages.  If the map is too large, and players are spawned great distances away, the UC in vision 1 would suffer drastically, as it might be a great many turns before another faction is encountered, and therefore open to "haunting" 


Additionally, what would their "favourite FIDSI" be?  To explain, all the current factions have some resource that they seem to favor/have an affinity for.  Horatio: Food, Riftborn: Industry, Sophons: Science, UE: Influence, etc.  Possibly it could be influence, but that is mostly used to direct negotiations, which seems to defeat the purpose of a stealth faction.

Updated 6 years ago.
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 20, 2018, 12:13:01 AM

Several cons for Vision 2, especially in regard to diplomacy manipulation if I understood what I read correctly: 


The AI likely won't be able to handle disguises, both using and detecting them which becomes a big problem if it's the faction's main shtick.


In PvP (or Umbral Choir AI against player) you run into same risks as the Roving Clan privateers in EL: namely that despite their disguise the ownership is not too hard to figure out due to positioning, player communication and possibly other factors like unit stats. The problem is also compounded further by disguising as another faction and sheer scale. How do you realistically disguise immobile systems and fool a player into thinking a specific normal system in certain position isn't owned by the Umbral Choir? What about systems that are being colonized? Alternatively, if you want the Umbral Choir to have disguised systems all around the galaxy instead of expanding in their own neighborhood and instantly giving away their general position, how do they defend their spread out empire without Vaulter teleportation?

  • tl;dr Condensed empire is an instant giveaway to UC's general position regardless of disguise, while a spread out empire is very difficult to defend without turning UC into Vaulters movement wise.


How do you handle war and other diplomatic relations when disguised as another empire and not just as generic pirates? You can't attack in enemy territory in anything but war or cold war with Religious sticky law, or with a hypothetical unique ability that allows the Umbral Choir to ignore these limitations. But either way that also beats the point because if you see disguised ships attacking in your territory, ignoring normal game rules (i.e. the actual diplomatic relations you have with a faction being disguised as) you can instantly recognize them as belonging to the Umbral Choir unless the empire being disguised as already has the same exact relation to the victim, i.e. war. Alternatively you could give the Umbral Choir the ability to directly manipulate other empires' diplomatic relations (essentially declaring war in place of the disguised empire) and spark a conflict that way but it comes with its own share of major issues as well. 

  • tl;dr Conflict with actual diplomatic relations between empires being disguised as vs. diplomatic relations with UC, can make UC easy to spot when they disguise themselves as other empires. On the other hand if UC abide by existing diplomatic relations it makes disguised ships only useful in an already ongoing war.


On the other end how does a player who already knows a disguised system is actually owned by Umbral Choir declare war and attack them? Declare war on the Umbral Choir which is an instant giveaway? Since the attacking player can obviously only invade and move in systems of opponents they're actually at war with, and not the hapless victim being disguised as unless they happen to have the same diplomatic status. Basically the invading player can just fly from system to system in order to check out whether they belong to UC. Or is the player forced to declare war on the main faction being disguised as, despite knowing it's not actually their system? That seems to open up stuff for abuse as well.

  • tl;dr How can diplomatic relations be handled when a player wants to attack disguised UC territory?


Vision 1 and stealth playstyle definitely seems like the more realistic approach without hitting as many roadblocks.

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 8:09:56 PM

Particularly i didn't like the evacuated aproach for the UC. I'd prefer it in another kind of faction. To protected it from the obliterator you could make the citadels imune to utterly desctruction or add a special feature for the umbral like making the system invisible with the map's fog (maybe with a special building from the research- or quest-  or a special module to the ships - it would be cool if you could make the system invisible by protecting the neigbhord system with ships with that special module).


- Crazy ideia: With a empire with just one system it will be very difficult to stay competitive in wonder building. So, thinking that we already have a strategy resource focused faction ( Vaulter) and try to compensate the wonder difficulties how about make a no Strategy Resource faction? You could make the wonders and buildings cost no strategy resource but cost 50/100% more industry. And to compensate the lack of strategy modules, add a spy action to decrease the power of the enemy ships (like the one in endless legend that decreases the morale). In the lore you could make the choir umbral worship a Lost that don't accept the strategy resources because they are the essences of another Lost (there's a Lost of pure Titanium, pure hyperium,...) or something like that.

Besides, it won't make the wonder victory easy because they only have one system, so just one wonder.

Another cool feature would be they receiving more bonus from the system improvement , like instead of 20 jadonyx for 60 industry, they need 60 jadonys for 180 industry

Updated 6 years ago.
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 6:50:36 PM
Touko wrote:

Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Alright, these are my notes: 


Vision 1 pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall

Vision 2 pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


I did pretty good, dont you think?

:)

LOL

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 6:03:17 PM

i realy do like the second vision, wonder how the empire you disguised as see you.
and i think i have a cool idea how to make them not just another "agressive" faction.

ok, hear me out.
how about giving a small fleet the abillity to "HIDE" in a natural/frandly/"caldwar" system. it's will give you vision on that system, and the abillity to perform a "Sneak Attack".
in wich will give your fleet a big fat combat bonus for this battle only. (but only small fleet can hide, less then your cap for sure)

now there game play will revolving more about seting Traps , compared to the "agressive" playstyle we all know and love. still an agressive faction, but in a different way.

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 5:52:45 PM

OK OK SOME HASTY THOUGHTS HERE

Vision 1. Wow that one is cool! I can imagine their special home system as an isolated node and them starting with baryonic shielding researched. Their home system can have a huge vision radius so that they can find other constellations. It gives me some illuminati vibe, like this secret court where they rule the whole universe through spying and sabotage..

Pros:


  • Very lore friendly, given that other factions could have never heard of UC before.
  • Counteracts early agression
  • Home system can be a 10 planet supersystem??? *_*
  • Honeycomb Scope finally useful? xD

Cons:

  • Risk of a non-interactive gameplay for other players (Where is my enemy??? o_O)
  • Super tall factions are weak to obliteration as it is..
  • Population merging sounds like Horatio?

Vision 2. Don't feel like diplomacy is good enough in this game to support this kind of gameplay. Also, that kind of stuff feets some digital race more. But, anyway:

Pros: 

  • You could send disguised populations to another empire's system to grow here like viruses and tear its economy apaaaart!!!
  • You could use other empires' unique traits and affinities??

Cons: 

  • No reason to keep your systems "virtual"?
  • That kind of disguise can be easily uncovered, unless you can somehow move your systems..
0Send private message
0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 4:03:07 PM

honestly, i think this faction will be awesome regardless, but i have a though. since this empire is all about trickery, what about ‘fake’ hyperlanes. you can create ‘hyperlane links’ between 2 close systems, hide it until necessary, then release it on an enemy when it is opportune to you, and make something ‘go wrong’. this would automatically be planned on the ship router, so any unobservant players/ AI would fall into it. now, for the ‘go wrong’ part, how about causing a 50% health removal on all ships that used the ‘hyperlane’ due to a malfunction in the hyperdrive and removing all the movement points.

now, we can either get the hyperlane to disappear, oooooor the hyperland becomes visually colored red to the player that crossed it, and they will no longer be able to traverse it. this is so that the player themselves can use it to trick other players (say do ctrl click to move a fleet across while being chased, and the enemy tried to use the fake hyperlane thinking its real).

also, i suggest ‘hiding’ hyperlanes as an option too, to make navigation around the systems more difficult for enemies in the early game, although the umbral choir can still use it themselves.

also, as you mentioned, maybe the hyperlanes would have an indicator if viewed in the scan mode that something is wrong with them without traversing them.



also, what about ships built in “traitorous systems”? maybe you can get them to have a hidden malus when fighting your ships, or maybe apply maluses at will (say, sabotageing them while they are fighting someone else).

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 3:27:28 PM

Wasn't thinking 'bout the pros and cons, but when i saw your two vision, for me it was directly the first vision. And with the pros and cons, it stays THE one for me. I hope this will go on the update, and i really want to test it!

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 3:19:23 PM

The stuff at the end there reminds of Star Wars: Empire at War:Forces of Corruption, how one faction could weave a web of corruption across every system in the map. I definately love playing tall and being sneaky so you have my interest. 

0Send private message
6 years ago
Sep 19, 2018, 3:11:29 PM

Now, don't be shy, show your notes to the class...

Alright, these are my notes: 


Vision 1 pros:

  • Great non-military approach for the faction (no need to expand!)
  • Strong asymmetry

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Risk of rather passive gameplay overall

Vision 2 pros:

  • Cool as heck, high potential for "wow" moments
  • Economy is easier to handle for non-expert players

Cons:

  • Gameplay: Another "agressive" playstyle
  • Production: Very high reliance on a huge amount of AI work for success


I did pretty good, dont you think?

:)

Updated 6 years ago.
0Send private message
?

Click here to login

Reply
Comment