I would like to address some issues with the WeatherKin posted over in your entry, Hinin.

-Some consider them not diplomatic enough.  I have recently made edits to try to make them slightly more diplomatic.  Once a faction sees that they get a Constant Rainfall benefit on their planets, it will in fact encourage them to be more diplomatic towards the WeatherKin.

-Some consider them to have no clear motivations.  I would say this is mostly true, as they are so alien that it is hard to relate to their agenda.  I like this part myself, because I find it interesting when, in sci-fi books I've read, humans try to understand unknown aliens by applying their own motivations to the aliens actions, but still end up with more questions than answers.  But I did try to add that they are interested in  and are curious about Applied Science tech.  And the most clear motivation is... the WeatherKin just want to rain on everything!  Which could be to aid any allied/minor faction, and also to repopulate themselves as the water evaporates and forms new clouds.

-Some consider them formless, which is close to being ethereal and not something the devs prefer.  I have written that they do have specific forms in the shape of weather patterns, as well as bio-organic tendrils that can help them operate machinery and learn new technologies.  They can interact with other factions, mostly through producing rainfall and strange clouds shapes/rainbows.  I would say the WeatherKin seem to understand the motivations of other factions more than other factions understand the WeatherKin, but one thing is clear, they are open to diplomacy and will accept most any diplomatic offer.

-Some consider they would not mesh well with the new senate feature.  This portion of the game would not be scrapped for them, but instead of directly speaking, the WeatherKin would be more emotive, instead of saying "I agree with this proposal" they would possibly emote "The WeatherKin bend light into a strange rainbow".  This would leave the interpretation up to the player, but within the senate system, it might be more clear that they have agreed.  

-Some consider the ships to be incompatible with ES2's design.  I only described what the colony/scout ships would look like, massive globules of dust-enhanced water.  I didnt want to go into too much detail, since that is for phase 2.  But I feel a spaceborn weather pattern would have some static form that could house weapons and modules, in the form of static, concentrated dust overlays.  There could be a spinning space tornado with stationary bands of transparent technology.  This would not require a redesign in my opinion.  

Thanks for your comments, I hope I have cleared things up a bit as to how I see the WeatherKin working.

Sounds really good and very different kind of "normal" races, good luck with this! :]

Ok, first things first: really unique proposal. In the terms of how different alien races can be it literally pushes to the edge of understandable and imaginable. 

The text below can be ignored, or not.

But their description still leaves more questions, than answers.  All factions in game are not just pictures, but also a specific gameplay. So here comes the question: how interesting it will be to play as such faction.

My point is (please, do not consider this as an insult): if it passes to the top 3 and second round, it must be carefully tested by game designers, that this faction will be interesting and playable in all situations.

They are very dependent on interaction with other races, because they themselves are too passive (they cannot declare war or peace, etc.). But here comes the problem: in EL the AI is also too passive. Except the fact, that it constantly become more and more angry at anybody for no reasons. This can be solved by devs (and I hope it will be addressed). So it is wouldn’t be interesting to play as this faction, but only to see them as your neighbors.

Senate and interactions with minors/major factions – this is a huge problem in their lore. WeatherKin can understand other races, but others cannot understand them. Any nation or civilization just cannot exist with the absence of normal communication.

Personally I think that this is an amazing proposal as it provides such a unique style of gameplay and flavor lore. It's a bit too passive for me personally, but I think it'll be good for the game to have, and even if it doesn't make it through I'd be sad if it wasn't made into a minor faction.

Thank you for your comment!  The WeatherKin reply with:

Basically, if you colonise a Desert planet as a Wetherkin, it will turn into a Tropical one after 5 or 10 turns, then into a Jungle one after 15 and finally into an Atoll one after 20.

Another example is: Steppes ==(5-10 turns)==> Terran ===(15 turns)==> Forest ===(20 turns)===> Ocean.

Also you could change the Ocean/Gas Giant bonus trait to a Flooded/Gas Giant one.

The reasons why I'm suggesting this change are:

1) If the terraforming progression system is anything like the one in ES1 then this is probably how ES2 will end up doing it, so he closer your suggestion is to actual gameplay, the easier it will be to implement.

2) This will help the faction actually have some choices in what planets they may end up with, ensuring that they don't fall behind or vastly outperform other empires when it comes to one of the FIDS. You wouldn't want to end up with a lot of planets that give massive science output but little else. In multiplayer you will get rushed and annihilated because you don't have the industry to build squat.

This way, you can at least plan your economy ahead. 

I agree with this idea : it gives more stability to your trait and balance it a lot (and relates it more to GDD, which is always better).

UndeadPuppy wrote:

Basically, if you colonise a Desert planet as a Wetherkin, it will turn into a Tropical one after 5 or 10 turns, then into a Jungle one after 15 and finally into an Atoll one after 20.

Another example is: Steppes ==(5-10 turns)==> Terran ===(15 turns)==> Forest ===(20 turns)===> Ocean.

Also you could change the Ocean/Gas Giant bonus trait to a Flooded/Gas Giant one.

The reasons why I'm suggesting this change are:

1) If the terraforming progression system is anything like the one in ES1 then this is probably how ES2 will end up doing it, so the closer your suggestion is to actual gameplay, the easier it will be to implement.

2) This will help the faction actually have some choices in what planets they may end up with, ensuring that they don't fall behind or vastly outperform other empires when it comes to one of the FIDS. You wouldn't want to end up with a lot of planets that give massive science output but little else.  In multiplayer you will get rushed and annihilated by human players long before you even get close to a Scientific victory, because you don't have the industry to build squat and defend yourself.

This way, you can at least plan your economy ahead.

The only issue with that is that means that the trait has almost no downside, something which as far as I can tell the author has actively tried to avoid. From what I can tell right now you trade off being able to choose exactly what type of planet you're running with for the ability to always have a good planet of X type. If you could choose the type of planet (as in science, dust, production), what would be the downside of the passive?

I've replied to your message. All hail the Wetherkind : they are so kind !

There is still a downside, only a not so crippling one. You basically get two more planet types, witch is not a lot considering you won't be able to use 16 other types... not for long anyways.

The biggest downside  is that you have no control over the auto-terraform trait that they have. That alone will affect your play style through the game, unless there are some late game techs you can research to control or stop it.

Maybe I'm just derp because I haven't followed the game play mechanics closely and am thus basing it off of ES1 gameplay, but the production isn't too horrible for top tier planets. Could be just me being stupid though, so please fill me in if I'm missing something.

It is possible to have great production with terran planets, but it requires extensive efforts in order to put the right buildings : rest of the time, it is nowhere near what a lava planet could produce.

UndeadPuppy wrote:

Literally, this faction will live or die based on how good the different Gas Giant bonuses are, because they are the only planets their affinity won't terraform (I hope).

I think the author said that they won't terraform Gas Giants in order to give the faction some chance to create IDS.

That will help for sure, but the problem is, systems are randomly generated and should you be unlucky enough not to find may Gas Giants in your constellation and be boxed in by AI/Player Factions  you would be at a massive disadvantage again.

I truly believe that allowing them to have Ice and Atoll planets will help them a lot in the long run.

That's awesome! 

Only 6 more hours to go, i'll be rooting for you.

And our hearts will sadden... all hail the Weatherkind !

EndlessCrashes wrote:

Just warning you, this reply will be rant-y.  So to address your suggestions:

-I suppose the WeatherKin could be in a Cold War to begin with, but they just don't understand it.  I guess it might be the opposite of the Cravers "Eternal War" trait how their only diplomatic action is to declare war.  Maybe the WeatherKin can only declare Peace or form Alliances.  I'm just not sure how to alter that any more.

-I have added a more thorough description of how planets would change when controlled by them, thanks for the idea!

-The WeatherKin might not 'feel' like a diplomatic powerhouse, but I think that is part of their charm.  I would say the Endless observed them taking over entire planets, flooding them, and spreading to other worlds like a strange beneficial virus.  I think that they are hard to understand could be fun in diplomacy.  Instead of completely understanding a faction you are dealing with, for example "Sure we'd love to join your alliance!" or "You have angered us!" the Weatherkin reply would just be a description, like "The clouds for long tendrils that swarm around you." or "The wind blows furiously as lightning crashes nearby."  This would leave the player to determine what exactly the WeatherKin are trying to say, instead of it being in clear english.  

I'd say they would interact with Minor Factions just fine, even though they are flooding the planets, I'm sure any Minor Faction could eventually migrate to the islands left on an Ocean world.  The WeatherKin government/senate would be hard to describe.  They operate like a planet wide organism and rarely form what could be considered individuals.  I'm not really sure how that system works so that would need to be something the devs would have to think of. 

I added a little bit to make it more clear on how to calm the WeatherKin down after being at War, thanks for the suggestion!  I also made it clear that they do not understand and cannot declare a Cease Fire, Cold War, or War, but it can be declared on them.  Also, factions at peace with them gain a continuous  bonus aside from the anomaly.  I also made it clearer that the WeatherKin do not offer trades, only rainfall, but other factions can request trades for their tech if at Peace or an Alliance.  They do not offer trades because they generally don't seem to care about possessions.  The whole 'diplomatic pacifist' theme is something I am trying to mess with, as it is a purely human trait that pacifists are diplomatic.  This may require a drastic restructuring of the tech trees, like with the Harmony.

I got my inspiration from books by Stanislaw Lem, Solaris and Fiasco to be precise.  I'm not sure if you have heard of those books, but I can summarize.  In Solaris, scientists discover a strange gas-like planet and are studying it, but cannot understand it.  It seems to react to being observed, and eventually strange clones of people the scientists know start to appear on their space station.  The clones have no idea what Solaris is trying to do either.  Eventually the people on the space station are driven insane and some become suicidal.  In Fiasco, a space ship is sent to a far away planet to make first contact with its inhabitants.  Only the aliens on the planet have absolutely no interest in talking to the humans.  The alien technology is so confusing to them than they eventually start responding with hostility, and damage a good portion of the alien world.  In both books, the alien forms are never truly seen nor are they understood, leading to disastrous results.  I would say my idea of WeatherKin is a more positive, peaceful spin on that kind of alien encounter.

-And finally, your disapproval with my cloud-bumping.  I have two basic goals with my involvement with this contest.

1. To introduce a truly alien faction and win the contest!  (Highly unlikely at this point)

2. Demonstrate how there are unfair aspects of the G2G system lately.  (I'm probably one of the few who actually care)

DevilDog keep bumping his post through comments, and I'm sure he knows it is getting more attention.  He already has over twice the votes of 2nd place and three times the views of second place.  I havent found the G2G forum rules against that, do you have a link to them?  If it is against the rules, maybe they shouldn't allow contest posts to be moved to the top with every comment.  Its pretty unfair for a contest forum, posts should stay in order of posting date.  Its also unfair that for some reason we can vote for the entries this early, before people have even posted their faction ideas.  That is one of my main issues of this recent quest.  He was one of the first posters, and his entry has soaked up tons of votes. People are still posting faction ideas, and they aren't getting a fair chance at getting viewers and votes.  Most people have already voted for the Unfallen, and they arent going to unvote and vote for another.  Any undecided voters are going to see that the Unfallen is likely to win and they will vote for that.  Its likely they wont even read any new entries. They should have allowed all entries to be posted, had a deadline, and then allowed voting after that, just like they did in earlier contests.  Unfallen is going to win, and its unfair to other people.  I think its a cool idea, Treefolk in Space, but isnt entirely original and doesnt bring that much new to the Endless universe.  I've barely got 90 views so I dont think my bumping is really helping or people really care if its unsportsmanly.

I also dont agree with how the Quest contest was hijacked by someone who carried over the popular vote from the Dilemma contest by using basically the same plotline.  It gave the other entries an unfair disadvantage and no chance at all to succeed.  Had the winner posted an entirely new plotline for the Quest contest, that would have given us all an equal chance.  Also, you werent allowed to vote early, and when polling was finally allowed that popular guy posted and soaked up most of the voters who probably didnt even bother reading other entries.  I found the winner of the Quest contest to be too unoriginal, basic, and traditional, and added nothing really new to the Endless universe. I wanted something that broke the mold!

Perhaps the devs will notice my complaints and change the following contests back to the old system.  Or they will just think I am a sore loser.  Either way, I think my points are valid.  I love the way they handle their games, don't like how they handle the contests.  As these Amplitude games get more popular, and there are more contests and entries, these small things that are unfair will give certain people more votes overall. Really, the devs should be the ones picking the finalists, as it is their game and they know what fits best, then let the final 3 be voted on by the people.

And I could upvote you, but what would that really accomplish?  You have an interesting entry, not groundbreaking, doesnt bring much new to the game, but fits the theme more traditionally than mine.  You have more views than me, and are close in the vote score.  If I upvoted you, then you would be close to beating me!  I'm trying to win, lol.  If we all vote for each other, how will there be a winner?  How many times can we vote? Would either of us really benefit from me upvoting you?  I dont wanna comment on other posts just to get return votes.

So, thanks if you read through my entire rant.  I'm glad a few people is interested in my faction idea, and that you have suggestions to improve it, which I have tried to apply.  But we need to accept that the Unfallen will probably win, and the rest of us didnt get a fair chance due to early voting.

As much as it does come off as ranting I do kinda have to agree with you on this one. I do like the Unfallen as an idea but I have seen a few better (In my opinion) submissions with a fraction of the score and page time. It does seem like there's been a bit of a bad wagon effect happen. I also agree with you on how the entry itself is not amazingly ground breaking or innovates on the Theme of the contest. I know the feeling of sitting down a puzzling out a cool unique idea (Egalitarian Nomads) only to realize that your idea is being ignored in favor of sentient space trees. 

At the same time while I do think that Devildog has put a lot of thought into the idea, the fact that his submission has only left the front page maybe once or twice has certainly contributed to the massive score. In fact the Only major thing that I don't like about the contest is the fact that we vote with our G2G Score rather than just showing how many individual votes each submission has, giving some people a hugely unfair advantage and importance in the contest.  

Curious as to how you would win playing the WeatherKin? Their gameplay seems to favor Dust production, are they just angling for an Economic victory?

A very cool and unique idea here. I like it a lot! Haven't seen anything like it yet.

In ES2, planets are shared with other factions, how will these survive/grow if food is converted into dust? Also, I feel like the traits are awesome but don't necessarily fit the "diplomatic pacifists" theme. Could you make some alterations to have it fit the contest more, while preserving the lore you already have? I would hate for this to be rejected for this reason.

Also, be careful defining what they look like too much, as I think this is reserved for part II of the contest.

I was originally going to post a plant-like faction, but several entries beat me to it and are clearly winning, so I decided to go for something more unique that hadn't been posted yet.  I keep trying to suggest different creative ideas for ES2 from great sci-fi books I've read, but people seem to be going for more traditional things. 

I described how the WeatherKin coexist peacefully with other factions, and only convert  they have personally grown into .   I would add that they seem to recognize how other factions live and primarily reward them with beneficial rainfall to help them thrive, and only flood the worlds they control directly, probably leaving a few islands for any minor factions.

I think their non-violent nature shows that they are primarily Pacifists, and they can engage in Peace and Alliances.  Being Diplomatic is slightly limited because they are so hard to understand, but just now I edited the Incomprehensible defect slightly to allow them to continue trading while at Peace or in an Alliance.  I just think that they are so alien in their expressions that other Factions would not recognize an offer of Peace or an Alliance from the WeatherKin directly, but they obviously respond positively if offered such.  Any suggestions from the Devs or other members here are welcome.

And I'm not really trying to define what they look like with the pictures, just giving examples of what one might see if they met one, and how hard to interpret they can be.  Also I'm trying to keep my post bumped since these forums keep moving the most recently commented post up top, and those posts are getting the most views.  Thanks for your comments, you seem quite involved in this contest!

I still find this a neat creative idea, but I have some more suggestions:

• "Cold war" is really just a "neutral" state factions begin in. So their faction trait of not being able to declare it leaves a gap between war and peace, i.e. the neutral state.
• For the "Constant Rainfall" trait, maybe make the planets follow some sort of order, guided by what is layed out in the GDD here. For instance, going from a lava to terran planet is a big first jump.
• I like the idea of a semi-formless cloud-like species, but their lore sets them up to feel more like a minor faction rather than major. They don't feel right to be a galactic main stage diplomatic powerhouse because you have restricted them to not being able to understand/communicate with other factions. So how will minor factions be included in their empire? How will their government and senate work (a new central feature in ES2)? If it is "hard to convince them to return to peace", how does that fit the "diplomatic pacifist" theme set by the contest? Once a faction has made peace with the Weatherkin and received the anomaly bonus, is there never again any benefit to making peace with them?

And Finally, careful with the cloud-bumping you are doing. Though not strictly stated in the rules, this feels unsportsmanlike. Stick to trying to get more votes by either improving your idea or participating in discussions of other factions (people may return the favor *cough cough*). 

Like the new constant rain fall trait. Very neat, do gas giants under go the same transformation? Also 5 turns seems a bit quick, 10 maybe? If Gas Giants don't then they would seem like the best bet for industry and dust production, making the Weatherkin player value them more than usual.

Hi, i like your idea - very creative and nice lore.

However i dont think they would be a very good major race.

First of all they lack any drive of domination or agenda, except for making it rain (dust, hehe). They feel more like a (sentient) force of nature.

Also they are extremely powerful. The inherent terraforming mechanic means that there are no more shitty planets, simply wait 5 turns and it will be better. After 25 turns it will be the best for the race.

That they dont need any food is also a positive thing, as you can focus on other things.

The negative traits of the race would be that you can only build ships when you are at war ( i dont think you mean cold war, as you are automatically in cold war once you meet another race). What about pirates? They are lore-wise also a threat.

Always open borders + no warships also means that they are very fragile to rush attacks.

But the main point why they would not be good as a major race is... there are only 2 options to win - economic victory and research victory.

You cannot initiate trade - no diplomatic victory.

You cannot go to war - no domination victory and it is very unlikely to get an expansion victory.

This makes them incredibly passive and i think not that much fun to play - sorry.

I would welcome them as a minor race or as an event.

(Made a few changes to make the WeatherKin a bit more partial to a Diplomatic victory)

(Adjusted the Constant Rainfall to be more beneficial to Diplomacy)