That's a very interesting look into Craver society and biology.



Given that the lowest casts seem to be content to do whatever their Bishop/Queen decides, I guess Craver integration into a different society works by virtue of the Bishop/Queen saying "Don't eat these people." and being the one to vote on behalf of the thousands of lower-caste Cravers.

I suppose that the carvers "leaders" are more like large think tanks that collect everyone's view and thought about the goverment and the problems of the hive and speak for the entire swarm.

each leader controls their own hive/swarm and gives information to the next in chain of command till they reach the top and that is how there "government" works every one gets a say but they just get drowned out in the ocean of voices.

I heavily suggest reading the book, even though they are very, very different from the movie, they are a sci-fi classic. You have to keep the time period it was written in (1958) in mind, though, this is a pretty heavily pro-military piece of fiction.

I conceive that the task of a military is to rescue the pacifists before they would getting eaten by somebody who won´t starting to extinct them before he had the most effective medium. And it isn´t the task that everybody live in it.

"1984" countervail against me, i prefer books of daily horror and clearly undefintely like "the colour out of space". Films in which it is possible to interpret the Aliens as an covered operation peacekeeping force like in the first part of "Predator" are enough for me.

I´ve never believed that there is somebody who could hate even Santa Clause but maybe: it seems that it is possible.

Travisk wrote:
People here should watch Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda. You can, quite easily, have species co-exist with one another even when one or both have inherent weaknesses that harm co-existence.

- In Gene roddenberry's Andromeda almost all "aliens" were genetically modified humans.

-They had a god like race on top of their "Commonwealth".

-In the end coexistence didnt worked and war was all over the place.



- btw: I wanted to kill myself while watching the last season of it. Worst thing I have ever seen. (And I liked the early seasons even if made with low budget effects).



About the Cravers:



They are most probably organized like the Zerg without the Overmind (where each breed had its own cerebrates).

Thats why there is the Starcraft Addon "Brood Wars" were Kerrigan won the control over the swarm at the end of this Zerg "Civil War" and substituted the cerebrates. (And started to use less independent queens in their place)



And we already know that there are plenty of Craver Queens out there. A pacifistic Queen would allow aliens to live and work with her craver swarm.



They are not not like the Borg or Consensus of Parts (Andromeda ugh) but more like the Zerg during the time after their Overmind was killed.



They do have/use hive minds but are not truly hive minded as an entire race.





Evil Queen->evil Cravers

Good Queen->good Cravers.

No Queen-> You realize that even drones are quite intelligent beings.



Like the "Rachni" from ME.

Frogsquadron wrote:
Spitballing here since I'm not Jeff (Slowhands), but what if the reason the Cravers have no independent thought is not that they're unable to develop it, but that having these higher subtypes around inhibits or overrides Cravers thought processes?



This could lead to interesting subquests when a peaceful planet-side Cravers population starts getting "agitated" by the presence of an orbiting Cravers fleet... 3

Sounds like an Indoctrination Theory to me.



Free the Cravers!

Teslaflux wrote:
That was an very interesting read about the Cravers.

What exactly is the role of the Bishops?

They are most probably like Overlords in Starcraft.



Overmind--->Cerebrates(Queens)---->Overlords(Bishops)---->Zerg units (Drones)



Governors, local control units etc call them as you like.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
If there is a subtle mention of He Who Meddles, I'm going to shed a tear.

You would not be the only one. The lore is one of the srongest points in this franchise and I love how all the games bind together.



EDIT: Necrophages were my first faction in EL, so it just adds to the awesomeness factor.

Frogsquadron wrote:


@Falkner: presumably this time around quests will give us a better insight into the hive-mind of the Cravers...

If there is a subtle mention of He Who Meddles, I'm going to shed a tear.

ImPulsar wrote:
I never liked Starship Troopers because it was at no time clear who has started the war( i only know the films), it was clear that the Insectoids should look like a dictatorship but a colonies of Ants, Bees or Termites are in reality more like an extended tribal family, during the Humans looked unintended more like members of a dictatorship.

I heavily suggest reading the book, even though they are very, very different from the movie, they are a sci-fi classic. You have to keep the time period it was written in (1958) in mind, though, this is a pretty heavily pro-military piece of fiction.



@Falkner: presumably this time around quests will give us a better insight into the hive-mind of the Cravers...

Why is it important that the full time egg layers are hermaphroditic? Does the Eggs grow larger?

Slowhands wrote:
Hi all,

I am opening the doors into some Top Secret/Eyes Only/Format-C:-After-Reading stuff from the design and lore archives. The paragraphs below should help give a better idea of how the Cravers society could actually be a functional civil organism.

It would be great if all this lore is presented ingame. From what we've seen in ES1, some factions simply have no capacity for democracy. I don't mind changing the lore of factions in ES2 and in fact welcome any change that helps justify or at least acknowledges the gameplay mechanics. Ludonarrative dissonance should be reduced to a minimum.

Keymaster89 wrote:
I don't think that will be enough... They have an insect mentality... if you give them the food they want, they'll simply multiply esponentially until the food become a priority again... yes, maybe you can calm them down for a little while, but you'll simply make the problem worst... if you feed them, the responce is that they'll want more... it's the reason why they consume irrimediably their planets...

Normally I'd be inclined to agree, however, feeding the normal "citizens" wouldn't produce that many, as it says that quite a few of them die naturally on their own, and even then, they need to be Queens (Rare) to procreate. In this instance, it merely suggests that feeding them allows them to properly develop mentally.

Keymaster89 wrote:
I don't think that will be enough... They have an insect mentality... if you give them the food they want, they'll simply multiply esponentially until the food become a priority again... yes, maybe you can calm them down for a little while, but you'll simply make the problem worst... if you feed them, the responce is that they'll want more... it's the reason why they consume irrimediably their planets...

So... obligatory genetic manipulation policies to alter Craver genes in order to suppress their hunger?

haraf wrote:
Someone mentioned that feeding the Cravers would become less agressive or something. So for living peacefully together with the Cravers you must feed them.

I don't think that will be enough... They have an insect mentality... if you give them the food they want, they'll simply multiply esponentially until the food become a priority again... yes, maybe you can calm them down for a little while, but you'll simply make the problem worst... if you feed them, the responce is that they'll want more... it's the reason why they consume irrimediably their planets...

Someone mentioned that feeding the Cravers would become less agressive or something. So for living peacefully together with the Cravers you must feed them. What kind of a Society could merge from that? HIGH SECURiTY OFCOURSE! That would happen in that kind of Society. All the sinners are given to the Craver group to feed upon and every few year a few would be chosen to be sacreficed to the hive - lowering happiness but increasing borders/security or whatever, could be initated from empire plans -. Sounds interesting. Amoeba-Craver society for the win!



bear with my english, thanks

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I suppose Craver babies, if shown affection and given food so that they don't have to rely on violence and cruelty from very early on, would experience an immediate impact on what kind of hormones the body is producing, thereby affecting their aggression levels.



So while biology is an important factor in Craver aggression, biology is never rigid and set in stone, and it can be altered through different behaviours and environments (something we observe through numerous experiments on animal species). Indeed, the Craver proper are consciously bending their nature towards aggression through a deliberate policy.



So it is not inconceivable to have Cravers become part of a multi-racial society. And it is not inconceivable for them to develop individuality and become citizens if such a state of being is promoted within the polity.

An adopted Craver would be cool as hell.

Slowhands wrote:
Hi all,

I am opening the doors into some Top Secret/Eyes Only/Format-C:-After-Reading stuff from the design and lore archives. The paragraphs below should help give a better idea of how the Cravers society could actually be a functional civil organism.







As a general rule, somewhere around 2/3 of Craver society are some level of slave/worker that simply do what they are told. 'Democracy' is an alien concept, and on any planet with a significant Craver population there would be a wide discussion on what Cravers, at what age, are considered close enough to the ideal of a "sentient individual" to have the right to vote.



Here is some information on the roles in their society:

...

The Hermaphroditic full time Egg-layer Craver are the Mamas but who are the daddies?



What gender has the sterile Individuals.



I never liked Starship Troopers because it was at no time clear who has started the war( i only know the films), it was clear that the Insectoids should look like a dictatorship but a colonies of Ants, Bees or Termites are in reality more like an extended tribal family, during the Humans looked unintended more like members of a dictatorship.

That was an very interesting read about the Cravers.

What exactly is the role of the Bishops?

I am not into ES lore that much but I got from wiki that certain species are more like zerg or machines. How could Cravers be citizens of a democratic, or any kind of empire?

"The lowest ranks are not capable of independent thought...The society has no idea of peace.". Or Sowers, who is a kind of reproducting terraformers, etc.

It also doesn't appear to be an absolute control (As in, the Queen is capable of independently managing their thoughts, like the Hive Mind would be for Tyranids, or Kerrigan would be for the Zerg), it just appears to be a social construct, similar to slavery in human history (People on the bottom simply did what the people up top told them to). Yes, they are "simple" creatures until age 6, but that is because they are intentionally kept from being able to consume enough to flourish.



Super stoked to see who's all in the sequel. Interested to learn more about everyone. =)

It seems to me that the Cravers are hive-based, but not necessarily operating within a hive mind. It seems like the cravers that are found on top of their very rigid hierarchy are capable of independent thought. This probably indicates that the lack of individuality in most Cravers is more a social phenomenon than a strictly biological one. But I could be misinterpreting things.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I suppose Craver babies, if shown affection and given food so that they don't have to rely on violence and cruelty from very early on, would experience an immediate impact on what kind of hormones the body is producing, thereby affecting their aggression levels.



So while biology is an important factor in Craver aggression, biology is never rigid and set in stone, and it can be altered through different behaviours and environments (something we observe through numerous experiments on animal species). Indeed, the Craver proper are consciously bending their nature towards aggression through a deliberate policy.



So it is not inconceivable to have Cravers become part of a multi-racial society. And it is not inconceivable for them to develop individuality and become citizens if such a state of being is promoted within the polity.

I think Cravers have a hive mind tho, so in the rare event that you found a live Craver grub floating on a ship that happens to be disconnected from their hive mind, I guess you can rehabilitate it from its primal urges and actually have it adapt to normal society. It would be cool to walk around some otherworld marketplace with a Craver bug friend. ^^

I suppose Craver babies, if shown affection and given food so that they don't have to rely on violence and cruelty from very early on, would experience an immediate impact on what kind of hormones the body is producing, thereby affecting their aggression levels.



So while biology is an important factor in Craver aggression, biology is never rigid and set in stone, and it can be altered through different behaviours and environments (something we observe through numerous experiments on animal species). Indeed, the Craver proper are consciously bending their nature towards aggression through a deliberate policy.



So it is not inconceivable to have Cravers become part of a multi-racial society. And it is not inconceivable for them to develop individuality and become citizens if such a state of being is promoted within the polity.

What a cruel destiny...

Crude selection, slavery, cannibalism and half of them dies at 6...

That sure is an effective insect strategy to produce a numerous and strong population.

BTW: "They have little sense of individuality or concept of self-worth, and accept being treated as cogs in a greater machine"... i still don't see how a slave or a drone Craver will have the will and the coscience to make a vote anyway...

I mean, if not instructed, the whole chain of the Craver society falls apart... without the proper command hierarchy, i see the Craver will die, or make another one that can instruct them, as the queen of the beehive is replaced as soon as she dies...

No one can rule a Craver beside another Craver...

Hi all,

I am opening the doors into some Top Secret/Eyes Only/Format-C:-After-Reading stuff from the design and lore archives. The paragraphs below should help give a better idea of how the Cravers society could actually be a functional civil organism.

The Cravers' is a hive-based insectoid race, something between ants and bees. They are large, however, taller than humans, and though certainly sentient they maintain the habits and culture of a eusocial insect. They have little sense of individuality or concept of self-worth, and accept being treated as cogs in a greater machine.



For a historical analogy, they are between plagues of locusts and hordes of invading barbarians. Like locusts they are not open to discussion or negotiation; they are driven by biological need and will simply keep going until they die or succeed. However, like a barbarian army they do have some level of coordination and hierarchy.

As a general rule, somewhere around 2/3 of Craver society are some level of slave/worker that simply do what they are told. 'Democracy' is an alien concept, and on any planet with a significant Craver population there would be a wide discussion on what Cravers, at what age, are considered close enough to the ideal of a "sentient individual" to have the right to vote.



Here is some information on the roles in their society:

...

Cravers are hatched, not birthed, and as such they lack any sense of parent or family. Eggs are plentiful in a high-tech society, so massive numbers of young are produced. Those who appear to be less than perfect are killed as soon as they hatch, and eggs that take too long to mature are destroyed. Queens whose eggs fall regularly outside the norm are destroyed as well. Nurseries are crowded, and the groups of young are never given quite enough food. They learn at a young age to fight; the weak or timid die quickly.

As soon as their exoskeletons are strong enough they are put to work. Though it takes years for one to reach maturity, most of what we would call childhood/adolescence passes in slavery. Slavery will continue until death, unless the Craver shows aptitude for management, science, architecture or warfare. All other functions in the society -- food supply, infrastructure, construction, transport -- are handled by slaves. The slaves die quickly but that is not important; dead slaves are a viable food source and more are always being hatched.

At maturity (roughly six standard Earth years), the Craver goes through a significant change. Slaves are fed for a week on an accelerated diet; at a time in the past it was the equivalent of 'royal jelly' but in this society it is a steaming and dangerous cocktail of prions and amino acids. This generally has one of several effects:

[LIST=1]

The Craver passes from sterile to hermaphroditic, and becomes a full-time egg-layer ( a fraction of one percent )

The Craver passes from sterile to female, and becomes a bishop ( 1 - 3% )

The Craver passes from sterile to neuter, and becomes a technician or engineer ( 3- 5% )

The Craver passes from sterile to drone, and becomes a soldier ( 12 - 15% )

Nothing happens ( 30 - 40% ) and the Craver retains a slave status, though grows larger and smarter, moving up the hierarchy to become a 'worker' and direct other slaves. Culling, selection, and assignment of job roles is nevertheless handled by others.

The Craver dies ( 40 - 50% )

[/LIST]

Spitballing here since I'm not Jeff (Slowhands), but what if the reason the Cravers have no independent thought is not that they're unable to develop it, but that having these higher subtypes around inhibits or overrides Cravers thought processes?



This could lead to interesting subquests when a peaceful planet-side Cravers population starts getting "agitated" by the presence of an orbiting Cravers fleet... 3

Democracy is general makes little sense in the context of Endless Space. You'd think that most races exploring the stars have long since left behind such an inefficient system or never developed it.

I think the most people imagine an Hive like a Swarm of Borgs from Star Treck but nobody think that a bee swarm could be more like an "Hive Five" (High Five)because your friends are everytime on your side. I think Craver wouldn´t live in their society if they have an bad feeling with it. And i think elections are the Human biggest step in the direction of an Hive.

...Human swarm intelligence :

Himmelslicht wrote:
I have watched the entire series, and pretty much all 'races' there are humans in different costumes.

That's mostly because we only have human actors though.

I have watched the entire series, and pretty much all 'races' there are humans in different costumes.

People here should watch Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda. You can, quite easily, have species co-exist with one another even when one or both have inherent weaknesses that harm co-existence.

No matter what explanation they come up with, it's just not reasonable for all the species in Endless Space to be able to co-exist peacefully and will always feel off and forced.

The only way I can imagine Cravers and Humans living together on one planet is with a gigantic wall between them.

I think alot about that topic too.



Or how could the Cravers integrate other species which are actually their "food" into their society?



Is it like? "Welcome to the Craver Swarm here is your election ballot to vote our new Queen?"

Like 2 Wolfs and a sheep vote what is gonna be their next meal.



Though we dont know much about the just in a sentence mentioned "government types" and I am sure the Devs will come up with a lore friendly explanation. For example "Cravers evolved via Dust and space magic into more or less reasonable beings".



And if not...well then we have to accept it as a game machanic and use our own imagination.



Also there will be already a pacifistic Craver Queen as a Hero in the Game (G2G) vote.