Digitalhawk96 wrote:
How could you tell good sir!

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
Amplitude should have the game released - be it a stable or a beta - and also publish one mod (or more) of their own with tweaked values.



"Aplitude's +1 MOD" - THis mod is used to test updated values to rebalance the game in the next patch. There is no guarantee any of the changes tested here will actually make it in to the stable game.

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
Say the player wants to research a tech level 3 but has only 9 tech level 2 weapons. He would able to do so, but with a "This technology is too advanced!" penalty, having to pay 20% more science to unlock it. It still allows for beelining, but the further the player goes, it gets diminishing returns. In the other hand it could be an investment, to snatch a tech early andcompensate by either trade or war afterwards.



This is a sci-fi game, the player shouldn't have to be bothered with hard locked eras.

pax368 wrote:

I have two thoughts to share on your colony building. The options for manpower, dust and influence mimic having supply ships speed up the creation of the colony, without the need for actual fleets and ships, which is nice from a micromanagement standpoint.

The system I have a problem with is the influence option to pull food from the nearest star system. On multiple occasions I have had a civilization colonize a system next to one I have been growing quickly, and when they use the influence option to steal 50% of the food growth, I suddenly go from having hundreds of spare food at that system, to being HUGELY in the negative. While I can understand some of that is intended, I have lost 3 or 4 population in my system before the neighboring star system turned into a colony. This can be stopped by blockading the system that is developing, but it would also be nice to have this prevented if you have your system protected by a fleet.

Alternatively, I would suggest having an outpost put the neighboring system down to zero growth rate, much like building a colony ship did in ES1. A little bit more intuitive than losing several population on your system before another empire gains 1 population on its new colony.

What about having colony ships able to 'invade' outposts you make speeding up colony production like a ground invasion but with less guns and death, expending the ship in the process?

I have two thoughts to share on your colony building. The options for manpower, dust and influence mimic having supply ships speed up the creation of the colony, without the need for actual fleets and ships, which is nice from a micromanagement standpoint.

The system I have a problem with is the influence option to pull food from the nearest star system. On multiple occasions I have had a civilization colonize a system next to one I have been growing quickly, and when they use the influence option to steal 50% of the food growth, I suddenly go from having hundreds of spare food at that system, to being HUGELY in the negative. While I can understand some of that is intended, I have lost 3 or 4 population in my system before the neighboring star system turned into a colony. This can be stopped by blockading the system that is developing, but it would also be nice to have this prevented if you have your system protected by a fleet.

Alternatively, I would suggest having an outpost put the neighboring system down to zero growth rate, much like building a colony ship did in ES1. A little bit more intuitive than losing several population on your system before another empire gains 1 population on its new colony.

I am really not a big fan of the current trade system, particularly intra-empire trading.

Food, for instance, should be traded through any linked systems in your Empire. Then, being blockaded takes on a whole new meaning as your system slowly starves too death because they do not produce enough food on their own.  Industry and Dust could also similarly be generated behind the scenes for linked systems via intra-empire commodities trade.  This is much like how one city produces circuit boards and then exports them to another city for assembly into larger components which are then exported elsewhere for final assembly. Even if it required a system upgrade like a space port before the system started adding to the empire's trade network, it would make it feel more like an empire and less like a bunch of isolated systems.  This could, in-turn, lead to other imperial improvements, like generating new space lanes between empires within x radius to speed travel between them based on trade.  In this manner, when a system is blockaded, it actually has a slight impact on the empire as a whole. It would also be nice to see more options for inter-empire trading. Particularly if there is a surplus of food or production in your own empire that could be traded. Bonus points if doing so increased your influence across the galaxy as other empires became more reliant on your trade goods or coin. 

Influence peddling is also awkward in the current build. You see that minor civilization over there, just stockpile influence and go buy them... right? There is no subtlety to it at all. It is like identifying the tiny screw on your glasses and then removing it with a sledge hammer. Influence between civilizations normally comes in four flavors: Culture, Trade, Diplomacy, and Intimidation/war. You already have a mechanic in place for Culture (the influence borders), so why not use trade, diplomacy, and intimidation to take over civs?

The new tech era thing is also not my favorite. I do agree that while the tree from ES1 was charming, it didn't tell much of a story. I think that was largely because the whole tree was revealed from the very beginning, so the story of how you get there was already written in stone. The current era thing also has no real narrative. It reminds me strongly of Civ V, minus the sense of progression. One thought on what might be interesting is to have all future techs beyond the next available hidden so that the player gets a sense of actual discovery. Then, give each tech three to five pre-requisites. Once the player reaches a majority (two-thirds or three-fifths) the tech is revealed. If a tech is researched prior to all of its pre-requisites, they are revealed as well, and available at a slightly reduced cost. This system would add the discovery narrative as well as adding a 'hindsight' narrative.  

For colony building, I have mixed thoughts. On the one hand, the current system makes sense, but only when the occupation of the system is in a state of competition between one or more empires. That is something I don't run into often (largely due to map size and the painfully slow ramp up in the early game). Why are there not more manual ways to speed up colonization? Maybe a 'supply ship' that could shuttle goods/people from more developed systems to the newly founded one, with each such run influencing the speed at which the outpost develops. If we assume that a newly formed outpost needs people, infrastructure(industry), and food to grow to the extent it is considered colonized, that leaves room for interesting choices in gameplay. Assume also that an outpost needs 20 points of each plus a minimum of 5 turns (time) to grow to a colony . If a transport ship could carry 10 units of one type to that outpost, then six transport ships could, in theory, carry enough food, people, and goods to knock the time down to 5 turns. That generates interesting strategies and fleet options for occupying new systems. In conjunction with the mechanics already in place, it makes colonizing a planet almost as strategically satisfying as warfare. Do you build up your colony ship and all your transports before setting out? Is one system better for generating transports of a particular type due to their FIDSI outputs? Is it worth giving up population from an existing system to speed up the growth on a new one? Could it be used as a form of over-population control? What about laws that banish criminals to settle new colonies? (As Australia was for Britain) And if another civ jumps in on you, you still have the mechanics that are already in place to handle settling conflicts, only now it is deeper and richer because you have options.

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
1) On planet surface, and EL boroughs



I like the way EL plays in that we can expand the boroughs and automatically increase our city's output.



How I envisage this working on ES2?



Every planet, surface-wise should be "divided" as a buckyball (buckminsterfullerene) like a football (soccer).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminsterfullerene





Unfolded:



These would be "political regions" and be upgradable individually, similar to how the boroughs are created in EL, boosting the planet's output.

The "political geometry" then would be comprised of 32 regions, regardless of planet size: 12 pentagons and 20 hexagons.



Each territory would have a distinct terrain. Rather, 5 of the triangles on each territory will have one single bonus - so each territory have equal properties and are equally desirable to be built upon.



Planet sizes would influence production values with a % modifier for FIDSI and militia replenishment, rebellion time which would apply to the final planet production.



This fits nicely with the 'system level up' mechanic. An outpost can have up to 4 territories occupied: the outpost foundation and 3 'boroughs'. This leaves 28 territories, and every time a policy is enacted, 4 additional expansions are possible, except the last upgrade, when the whole planet becomes "improvable" (is that a word?).

This does not limit specific regions from being enhanced; rather, it is a cap on max number of enhanced regions.



The system's improvements would no longer be a generic construction which you queue up. Rather, every system improvement would also act as a 'borough', improving one tile on one planet. Each building will also have pluses and minuses which will change the output of that specific territory as well. A mega-factory would reduce food by 100% but increase industry by 200% for that tile only, in addition to the 'system effects'. So the player will be keen to choose wisely where to expand.



The initial outpost would be a jack-of-all-trades and unlock only a few population slots.

As for generic city expansion ( the "borough" improvement), initially a generic 'megalopolis' improvement is available, which just adds up the undelying tile production to the city. Later, other improvements are unlocked via technology.

Before or alongside terraforming there should be 'biospheres' to unlock slots to even make population growth possible on planets which as inhospitable for the player's race. Biospheres on planets with friendly environments would reduce expansion/overpopulation penalties, so the effort is not lost if the planet is terraformed later.



In a space system, the outpost->planet surface expansion would not be restricted to building in adjacent tiles, like the city expansion in EL. The player can build the improvement in any tile.







SURFACE COMBAT, ORBITAL COMBAT



I am going to ingress in the combat territory because it ties in the 32 tiles I am proposing above.



The 32 tiles might be handy for the planet domination combat arena too. 32 tiles are a little bit too little though, it's half of chessboard. So my proposal is: For combat, each of the 32 tiles will be split in triangles, and the units would move from triangle to triangle. Obviously, the pentagons would be split in 5 triangles, and the hexagons in 6.

This gives us 180 different tiles to position units in the surface.

Fleets in orbit will give assistance from another layer of 180 triangle tiles.

The battle can happen on both layers and go up and down.

It's great that the difference between pentagons and hexagons becomes immaterial, since each triangle necessarily only has 3 neighbors anyway.

On a space game, it's unlikely that any unit will be purely melee, attacking only adjacent tiles, almost all of them probably will have at least 2 tiles range.

180 tile is also much more than the "combat theatre" of EL, which I always felt a bit cramped. The buckyball shape also allows the player to wrap around the planet chasing enemies.

Terrain-wise, each triangle will have its own terrain type, with height, mobility, visibility modifiers, as it would impact combat.



Each city 'borough' has militia units for surface and orbit.

Instead of having 'build once and forget' military improvements, or the plain tile improvements above, the player has access to military improvements which can be built multiple times:

Barracks for additional militia

Surface-to-orbit weapons

Tesla continental coils to secure territory/attack invading troops

Exploit natural phenomena such as 'cave systems' for additional defense

Ships may be able to deploy bombers to give air to ground support

Or fighters for air superiority

Or have other orbit-to-surface weapons with varying radiuses around the ship tile

Even have a massive scorcher beam which attacks only the tile directly below but does massive damage

And more (which I can't think up right now).

Players have expressed concerns with how science is generated in ES2 because approval technologies to overcome environmental and expansion disapproval are essential and numerous in ES1(especially in huge galaxies). I'll exclude the Harmony as they have their unique difficulties.



With the implementation of Eras and ever increasing cost of research introduced from EL, factions whom science doesn't come easy/constantly will find it hard to achieve the numerous technologies needed to habitat differing types of planets plus offset expansion disapproval.



The method of "Collecting all the techs" worked advantageously in ES1 as players wish to explore the galaxy, colonize every single world, conquer all comers, and transform the worlds into perfection. That requires many technologies to achieve, yet ES1 allowed it's players to do so!



Short and Sweet: Streamlining the technologies into something manageable with an Era Type approach is needed.

The Eras limited # of techs until the next era unlocked thus "missing" the optimal time to grab all essential tech within a designated era.



I enjoy the tech web from ES1, but I understand the design choice. I just hope there will be more direction in technologies than an assorted jumble of small tech bubbles within a larger bubbles.

I think that moving FIDSI production from one planet to another should be possible by means of domestic trades.



It could work like this: any two adjacent systems may do a domestic trade route. It is only 1 jump long. Surplus can be moved from one system to another.



Inside a system, each planet consumes its own food production. Each planet consumes its own food, and would-be surplus is consumed by planets with deficit, to then calculate a 'liquid' food surplus for the system.

You said that you need to apply a policy to convert the outpost into a colony. IS that policy the same unlocked through luxury resources? And if it is, are you forced to have at least one luxury resource to convert an outpost into a colony?

If you convert an outpost into a colony with planets in the same system colonized by other empires, what happens to other empire's pop? Will be different what each faction do with them? Will be converted into food by cravers? And what other factions will do to cravers?

What exactly means the X03/5 when you speak about number of available companies?

Can you explain more about the relation between trade routes and companies?

Will there be an specific GDD about trade routes and companies?

I'd like to see the luxury resources accumulate automatically (to a certain degree) upon colonization. With the player having the option to further increase/exploit production of their chosen luxury(s) through tech/buildings.

Will there be luxury markets within ES2? If there is; It would be nice to tie the different luxury(s) available/quantity based upon minor/major factions met. It would further increase the importance of exploring the galaxy.

I understand that you want to create a mini-game in research tree, but to say that you want to give freedom to players here is clearly a lie and a false advertising. I hope you will think about it before you start your advertisement campaign, because some customers may be later very displeased with your poor choice of words.

Edit: I additionally wanted to express my concern about something that came to my mind. I remember that EL research tree was extremely boring not only because of eras, but also because of the fact that only some techs were really needed. What does it mean? It means that each time I was researching (no matter what faction I played), I was always taking the same route in my research. I personally believe that is a huge flaw. Now you say that you want to implement both systems and additional ones in ES2 and I already see where does it leads to. It leads to the same research path in EVERY game. What was beautiful in ES research tree was the fact that I had the choice to concentrate research on various parts of my empire. I was researching either science/industry, or diplomacy/food, or exploration/colonization, or military. I had the choice to concentrate my efforts somewhere depending on my current needs. In your new design my only choice will be the same path of research over and over again. I will wait until the game comes out with a definite opinion, but I'm already getting the feel that there is a major flaw in game design here. After reading responses in this topic I see I'm not the only one who expresses concerns about the research tree, which I believe should already be very alarming for you

How exactly are branches placed, and what is their effect?

Are branches always the beginning and end point of trade routes?

Do trade routes always take the shortest path, or the most valuable?

If they always recalculate to the most valuable, but they also produce luxuries from systems they pass, how can we be sure our companies won't suddenly decide to run a different route and cut of access to a luxury resources we desperately need?

Are trade routes internal or external, and if the latter, how do we control which enemy empire/systems they trade with? Do they just go to the “same” company in a different empire?

Will we be able to raid trade routes? If so, how will they be visible on the map?

uqcu wrote:
I did wrote in my post that this is actually a positive side of this type of tech tree. It gives you the ability to grab less important techs as well, which means you will have the ability to use additional game mechanics to more extent. It also forces you to think hard about the strategy you should implement, because you need to plan ahead and if you fail at it, then you will have to pay the consequences. Therefore I personally think without a doubt, that ES research tree is the best (or at least one of the best) I ever saw.

Slashman wrote:
Actually, a tech web is just as limiting. It locks you into take a string of techs that you might not want in order to get to one that you really, really need.

uqcu wrote:
I completely disagree with this idea. Many game developers already proved many times that they know nothing about game balancing. Not once game communities which were allowed to mod games were able to create great community patches that were balancing various games in a truly wonderful way. Therefore Amplitude should forget about balancing because it will take alot of their time, which they can use on creating games (which will allow modding) and content for them instead.

Fully agree with the idea and statement. In reality we never say that humanity has entered a new era just because some guy/group of scientists discovered something or created a new technology. We say that humanity has entered a new era only when that technology has started to be widely used around the world. Thats not all. From the gameplay side of things the era system implemented in EL is completely nonsensical, it takes away what was great in ES. As The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote: A tech web offers some structure that helps in decision making, yet also challenges the player to plan ahead to ensure that he grabs prerequisite technologies. - Planning ahead creates hard decision making, which has been completely removed in EL and made the research completely unsatisfying due to complete lack of thinking and planning behind it. In EL player was never hindered by the fact that he didn't researched some technologies because he didn't had to. In this way many technologies were completely useless and the best part? Those technologies contained some of the game mechanics implemented by Amplitude that ended up never being used by players. Therefore the amount of gameplay strategies and options has been limited. The content is there, Amplitude worked on it, but it isn't used because of that nonsensical research system, where technologies are becoming more expensive as we research. Amplitude is not only controlling the game pace, they also prevent players from using all the content that game has to offer. Therefore I'm strongly against this system and I really hope that it will be removed from ES2. I won't buy a game which suffers from a bad design choice.

KnightofPhoenix wrote:
I sense a Warhammer 40K fan.

Digitalhawk96 wrote:


I hope at least, that one tech doesn't just do one thing. Perhaps its placeholder right now, but I think I seen "Isolation Shields" in one of the screenshots so far; if I remember correctly this Tech in Endless Space just led into "Public-Private Partnerships" building which produced Science based on pop and had a dust upkeep. Something I hope for is that most techs will not be so one sided and will do a little more than simply providing one resource or path type.

Valannor wrote:
I see your point. Maybe it doesn't give you much freedom but can military go forward without researches on other branches of science? I mean you should first discover the element to be able to make a weapon out of it. Maybe this is not extreme freedom but I think the web design is "convenient".