Technologies:



Ubiquity - the more empires know it, the cheaper it is for other empires to research it. Knowledge propagates.



This is good to compress the technology gap, making it more viable for an empire behind the curve to catch up.

Just as feedback I should say that I liked the tech tree in Endless Space more than the one in Endless Legend. It gives more freedom and it is less complex. Also techs leading to other techs and the web design fits the game better I think.



My only complain about the tech tree in Endless Space is, that some easy to develop techs are high on the list. Like creating an alliance or loading siege troops on ships. How can those techs not be available since the beginning?



I'm sure Endless Space tech tree would be good for this game if you fix the little flaws like I mentioned.

Frogsquadron wrote:
The last GDD has been posted recently, but I'm sure you still want more right? So to keep the momentum going, here's a new one!

I must admit I already lost the momentum after the long period of waiting after the first two GDDs and its a little bit hard to regain it right now.

Frogsquadron wrote:
We want to give the player freedom on how they approach available technologies.

This is something I do not understand in your reasoning. You talk alot about freedom, but compared to earlier games, you clearly show that you will take that freedom away from players. The mechanics in research tree you describe are clearly there to take freedom in researching technologies away from players. Those are mechanics constricting freedom in a big way compared to earlier titles, because you want to combine constrictions from both Legend and Space titles, which means that in the end the players will be far more constricted than free in their choice of available technologies. I understand that you want to create a mini-game in research tree, but to say that you want to give freedom to players here is clearly a lie and a false advertising. I hope you will think about it before you start your advertisement campaign, because some customers may be later very displeased with your poor choice of words.



Edit: I additionally wanted to express my concern about something that came to my mind. I remember that EL research tree was extremely boring not only because of eras, but also because of the fact that only some techs were really needed. What does it mean? It means that each time I was researching (no matter what faction I played), I was always taking the same route in my research. I personally believe that is a huge flaw. Now you say that you want to implement both systems and additional ones in ES2 and I already see where does it leads to. It leads to the same research path in EVERY game. What was beautiful in ES research tree was the fact that I had the choice to concentrate research on various parts of my empire. I was researching either science/industry, or diplomacy/food, or exploration/colonization, or military. I had the choice to concentrate my efforts somewhere depending on my current needs. In your new design my only choice will be the same path of research over and over again. I will wait until the game comes out with a definite opinion, but I'm already getting the feel that there is a major flaw in game design here. After reading responses in this topic I see I'm not the only one who expresses concerns about the research tree, which I believe should already be very alarming for you.

Sry if I overread it somewhere:

What do you think about showing an On-Planet view not only based on Outpost-Level, but also representing every upgrade, anomaly, and the population counter?

I would love to see the diversity of mining-colonys, forgeworlds, desert trading posts, and coruscant-like galactic centers.





On a somewhat similar note: please alow for multiple anomalies! Friendly Locals would fit so well into a Garden of Eden. And there is nothing like acid rain nailing you to the floor with the force of 20 G's :-). It just creates a lot more possible scenarios with the same basic elements.

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
I wouldn't go as far as giving a tech away for free, but I would make that every era unlocked reduces the research costs for all previous eras, so all older techs become cheaper.

This wouldn't be a huge bonus, but would be shared across factions. In other words, every faction which goes up an era would reduce the tech cost for all previous eras for all empires.



This compounds with my other idea: ubiquity - every faction which has already researched a tech makes subsequent researches of this tech cheaper for all other factions.



This 'shared tech cost compression' makes the game more competitive, and makes it harder of an empire to go tech-rampant on late game, with a bunch of trailers in the back with no winning chance.

Having techs become cheaper based on eras and empires sounds really good. It allows people to catch up on techs if they have fallen behind without making it too much off an advantage due to it being delayed so that the most recent techs are always the same for everyone and you can't just have leech off the tech leader with a few turns delay.

Int the tech trees on each era:



I think they should be wider (more techs per era) in each era, compared to EL ones. I'd shoot for at the very least twice the number of techs per era compared to EL.

I think that one interesting way to explore it, is to break down the tech into each having a single effect, and having more, cheaper techs.

So each tech would be either a building unlock, or an empire-wide effect, or a ship hull or module unlock.

It would be interesting to have some either-or paths, where the player would choose to develop one or another tech, locking out the other in the tech tree. In this case, the other effect would be still achievable by trade with another empire which researched it.



...



Also: With a wider tech tree, it should be possible to broaden gameplay variety with a limited randomization of the tech tree in the following manner:

1) It would be a game set-up option, randomized tech tree would be an optional setting before the game begins, so players can use a standard tech tree.

2) a limited number of techs can be poked out of the tech tree on each era, becoming available only by quests, not research.

3) Other small number of techs would be shifted up or down one era.

Meedoc wrote:
We prefer to use an era structure compared to the web shape of Endless Space tech tree because:

• Structuring the game helps tell a story and control the game pace / progress; imposing constraints lets us create tense and interesting choices for the players.
• We like the idea of permanent increase cost we introduced in Endless Legend; and how it reinforces the feeling of choosing your path through the tech tree in opposition to the “collect them all” of Endless Space tech tree (which had its merits).
• Regarding the link, we want them to be able to create specific relationships between some technologies but we don’t want a tech tree full of them. They are tools for a better balancing, and that will allow to reinforce some choices.
  
  

I suppose the era system is okay (although I'm still not a big fan of it), as long as the tech tree is as large and deep as the original Endless Space. The tree felt really well-thought-out, as opposed to Endless Legend's, which felt much smaller and a little underwhelming. I love the complexity of Endless Space's tree, as well as the in-depth and scientific-sounding tech descriptions.



I agree with Hiyouren that the tech tree links should be frequently used, as well as about the era-related tiered cost increase. With the era system in general, I felt a little rushed to start researching the next era when I unlocked it, forcing me to leave behind technologies that I would've unlocked otherwise. Although I'm not exactly a completionist and will leave behind techs that I don't see any real benefit in, even in ES1, I'd rather be able to "collect them all" if I want to.



I also prefer having all of the technologies in one big circle/web/cluster rather than separated into different circles like in Endless Legend. The original Endless Space had the technologies in different tiers separated by circles, but still in one big image. Perhaps you could do a similar view to the original endless space while having these tiers be the eras? This would also make the game look and feel more like the original ES than Endless Legend, while retaining the era system.



Also, I love the new trade system, and am happy about the naming of companies, the piracy... pretty much everything you've said about it.

Garak wrote:
One feature they've already announced for the tech tree is that research one set of techs can unlock another tech for free. Using this feature, you could set up the tech tree to automatically "back-fill" previous-era techs.



So like researching the Era 3 dust techs automatically unlocks Era 1 and Era 2 dust techs, if you skipped those earlier (or maybe just Era 1). Since you can have multiple dependencies, you could even take it further and say there's one particular Era 3 tech (History research?) that unlocks all the T2 stuff you have now but skipped. Or even a T3 tech that unlocks the entirety of Era 1, with no other dependencies. But if you did this, then you would probably want to say that unlocking Era 4 requires X Era 3 techs, not just X techs in general.

I wouldn't go as far as giving a tech away for free, but I would make that every era unlocked reduces the research costs for all previous eras, so all older techs become cheaper.

This wouldn't be a huge bonus, but would be shared across factions. In other words, every faction which goes up an era would reduce the tech cost for all previous eras for all empires.



This compounds with my other idea: ubiquity - every faction which has already researched a tech makes subsequent researches of this tech cheaper for all other factions.



This 'shared tech cost compression' makes the game more competitive, and makes it harder of an empire to go tech-rampant on late game, with a bunch of trailers in the back with no winning chance.

One feature they've already announced for the tech tree is that research one set of techs can unlock another tech for free. Using this feature, you could set up the tech tree to automatically "back-fill" previous-era techs.



So like researching the Era 3 dust techs automatically unlocks Era 1 and Era 2 dust techs, if you skipped those earlier (or maybe just Era 1). Since you can have multiple dependencies, you could even take it further and say there's one particular Era 3 tech (History research?) that unlocks all the T2 stuff you have now but skipped. Or even a T3 tech that unlocks the entirety of Era 1, with no other dependencies. But if you did this, then you would probably want to say that unlocking Era 4 requires X Era 3 techs, not just X techs in general.

Absolutely adoring the majority of this yet again. Still majorly concerned about the tech side of it though... I really didn't like the Era system in EL - Maybe I just didn't play it right, but I found that if I was in a bit of a rut, I had 2 choices:

1 - Stop researching things and try to sort out my empire.

2 - Continue researching things and risk sending myself further into the rut with an Era unlock, making everything more expensive.



Other times, it boosted me way above the competition, but I still didn't really like it. I dunno, I guess the tier'd cost also annoyed me, I hated how all of a sudden it took the greatest minds my empire had ever birthed - and a plethora of turns to simply work out a sewerage system. All because I favoured more situational techs earlier on.



I'm actually kinda scared of how you guys are planning to take on the tech, I loved ES1's tech tree.

Although, I think that if you do more than just 'sprinkle' a few tech-combos in there, it'd turn out better than EL. (Basically hoping the Technology combos [includingcertaintechsexcludingothers] isn't scarcely used. I think it'd benefit greatly if that became an integral part of the tech trees.)



Pretty sure I've expressed that on every GDD that mentioned the tech, must be boring by now, but hey - I Trust you guys to make a great game, still enjoyed EL even with the Era system, I know I'll love ES2 as well!

Perhaps for the tech tree, it would be possible to consider have 'node' technologies at each of the 4 ends of tree that, when researched, unlock the next era, and the next circle? These would basically act as bottlenecks along a certain tree's path. Too much of the research strategy in EL was dominated by the need to get to the next era, imo. This would allow people to progress more organically along the tree, while still creating hard cutoff points between eras.

Valannor wrote:
Just as feedback I should say that I liked the tech tree in Endless Space more than the one in Endless Legend. It gives more freedom and it is less complex.

Did it really give that much more freedom, though?



The nature of the tech tree forced one to research in all of them. For instance, if one wanted to specialize in warfare, we still had to research heavily from the Exploration and Expansion branch to unlock ships, from the Diplomacy and Trading to increase cap size, from the Applied Science to get support modules as well as strategic resources that advanced military modules need, and finally of course Galactic Warfare. Obtaining a scientific victory was easier if reached the last tech of each branch...etc.



It didn't really feel like one could specialize in one branch without heavily investing in the others.



Which is not to say that Endless Legend's tech offered that much freedom either. However, at the very least one could specialize in either dust tech or industry tech, which wasn't really viable in ES unless you are the Sheredyn.



So I hope that ES2's tech tree offers more freedom than both ES and EL.

I'm enjoying what has been described in the GDD as well as the Dev's responses to the first round of questions.

Looks like I'm a little late to the party/thread to get on the first round of responses. However, I'll post them anyways as I like to ask probing questions.



Luxury Resources:

I may be the odd-one in my dislike to the luxury resource approach akin to EL being implemented in ES2. In EL, it felt like too much resources (Tech + Ind + turns) where utilized to bring Luxury production into existence.



I'd like to see the luxury resources accumulate automatically (to a certain degree) upon colonization. With the player having the option to further increase/exploit production of their chosen luxury(s) through tech/buildings.



This system would allow factions to (eventually) experience the turn bonuses for all luxuries within their domain. It would also allow factions exploit the advantages of selected luxuries to a greater degree.

An exclusion policy (only one of the luxury resources can be enhanced per era) would work well for balance/player choices. Factions that focus upon peace/resources could have traits to exploitation more luxuries then normal (as an option).



Will there be luxury markets within ES2?

If there is; It would be nice to tie the different luxury(s) available/quantity based upon minor/major factions met. It would further increase the importance of exploring the galaxy.

It could also be a significant boon for trading companies to have the first local branches/HQs on minor faction worlds.



Colonization:

The propaganda promotion from outpost to colony is an interesting choice.

Will there be the option to dump more population(s) though colonizer ships to speed up process?



In ES, if a faction's influence ring already included an outpost, the outpost "gained" the faction's disapproval modifiers that colonies had (despite still being an outpost). Outposts beyond a faction's influence had none of these modifiers until they became full colonies.

Will this be the same in ES2?

Obviously, systems outside your influence area where best as you had 30 turns to pump their approval before taking the expansion disapproval hit colonies "gained".



Technology (The elephant in the room):

There are many ways to make population(s) unhappy in hostile, strange, and extreme living conditions and it shows with how much approval/propaganda/infrastructure is needed in ES1.



Players have expressed concerns with how science is generated in ES2 because approval technologies to overcome environmental and expansion disapproval are essential and numerous in ES1 (especially in huge galaxies). I'll exclude the Harmony as they have their unique difficulties.



With the implementation of Eras and ever increasing cost of research introduced from EL, factions whom science doesn't come easy/constantly will find it hard to achieve the numerous technologies needed to habitat differing types of planets plus offset expansion disapproval.



The method of "Collecting all the techs" worked advantageously in ES1 as players wish to explore the galaxy, colonize every single world, conquer all comers, and transform the worlds into perfection. That requires many technologies to achieve, yet ES1 allowed it's players to do so!



Short and Sweet: Streamlining the technologies into something manageable with an Era Type approach is needed.

The Eras limited # of techs until the next era unlocked thus "missing" the optimal time to grab all essential tech within a designated era.



I enjoy the tech web from ES1, but I understand the design choice. I just hope there will be more direction in technologies than an assorted jumble of small tech bubbles within a larger bubbles.



Trade companies.

Will companies be limited to only your colonized worlds or will players found branches on opposing faction systems?

If so, will each faction be able to have 1 of their companies on each system? (E.G. both cravers and (human race) companies)

I imagine an issue with Aggressive/science factions being less developed in trading companies than Economy players. Thus opening the opportunity for aggressive trade company founding (possible win condition?).



Trade routes.

Will there be localized trade (only within a single faction) and inter-faction trading?

Will trade routes have other effects on systems other then trading? (E.G. propaganda enhancement, espionage options, influence on local elections, etc.)

Civilisation went from a traditional era tech tree to a heavily Endless Space inspired "Tech web" in Beyond Earth btw, which people actually really liked unlike most other aspects of BE, so there's some evidence for an Endless Space type tree being better, especially for space games. I still really think it should be changed, and that a simple era tree is really a step backwards when you could have a fourfold open tech tree with links balancing it. I mean, with links and without a simple era tree.

The Cravers in ES1 got science from destroying enemy ships. It's probable that they will have a similar trait come ES2, perhaps also acquiring science through conquest.



While the Cravers would have a scientific disadvantage if trade and diplomacy could generate science, one must also realize that the Cravers don't have to waste time researching said trade and diplomatic techs. By the time an empire researched these, the cravers would have already researched military tech to make them dangerous and militarily ahead.

For Cravers alone, there should be a way to assimilate science.



Since they are diplomatically gimped, and have this thematic of overexploitation, they should be able to consume units of population of other species to gain science boosts.

Like they suck their brains, or torture them to death to extract information, or work until they drop dead, to further their science.

Just few thoughts about this GDD:



As said before, I think that different FIDSI coming from different sources is a good idea.



About Science, just complains made before: worried about diplomacy being a major source and eras.

The diplomacy as major source will only not nerf the cravers, but make aggressive play style difficult for science-related factions. May be this will be good for Sophons, but not sure what to do with Vaulters, I always played them pulling science and conquest, and major avoiding diplomacy. Have you considered just adding a third main resource for science or increasing the number/efficiency of secondary sources?

I liked the eras in EL and I think they're a good choice for this game, but not for ES(2). If you've decided this is the way, may be a good idea to cal ES1 tree fans will be make a tree web, with concentrically disposed circles defining the eras, and soften the difference within eras from EL (said taking the middle way)



About colonization, a pair of questions:

- You said that you need to apply a policy to convert the outpost into a colony. IS that policy the same unlocked through luxury resources? And if it is, are you forced to have at least one luxury resource to convert an outpost into a colony?

- If you convert an outpost into a colony with planets in the same system colonized by other empires, what happens to other empire's pop? Will be different what each faction do with them? Will be converted into food by cravers? Adn what other factions will do to cravers?



Finally, three questions about companies and trade:

- What exactly means the X03/5 when you speak about number of available companies?

- Can you explain more about the relation between trade routes and companies?

- Will there be an specific GDD about trade routes and companies?

Digitalhawk96 wrote:
Well i hope we can at least have a system where we have "Forgeworlds" in one system and "Agriworlds" in another system and create a link between such systems; one system creating excess food and shipping it to the other system and in return receiving industry as payment, in short, a localized trade network; even if its within one solar system or between systems. Of course they would benefit immensely connected but also suffer immensely if disconnected.



In fact I could make this sound better, would we be able to create local trade networks that ship food and industry to different systems to shift our surpluses of food and industry around?

I think what you're asking for, and Brazilian_Joe in his last post, will be partially covered by the food/industry produced by trade routes. Still I think that what trade routes will produce about food and industry has to be influenced by the planets they connect, making more or less what you're asking for in an automatic and way.



I hope Amplitude look into it, because your reasoning has lots of sense, but not sure hot to they can put into the game without increasing micromanagement

I think that moving FIDSI production from one planet to another should be possible by means of domestic trades.



It could work like this: any two adjacent systems may do a domestic trade route. It is only 1 jump long. Surplus can be moved from one system to another.



Inside a system, each planet consumes its own food production. Each planet consumes its own food, and would-be surplus is consumed by planets with deficit, to then calculate a 'liquid' food surplus for the system.



Industry does not have a fixed consumption, since it's just used building up stuff.

Tech levels and some buildings would upgrade the maximum % of food and industry which can be relocated to another system via a domestic trade. Food buildings and tech raise food export limits, industry buildings and tech do the same for industry.



The interface to manage domestic trades could be in the phase lane itself:



In the middle of a phase lane, there would be a small trade symbol which when hovered expands to display 2 inobstrusive and not too big sliders: one for food and another for industry.

By default they lie at the middle, meaning surplus would be consumed locally by each system. The player can move food and industry surpluses individually on either direction by pulling the slider in on or the other direction.



Example with fictitious numbers:



Maximum surplus food export: 50%

Maximum industry export: 20%



Initial state:

System 1 produces 100 food surplus, 100 industry.

System 2 is adjacent to System 1 and produces 50 food, 50 industry.



S1<->S2 food slider is moved from the middle (0% to both sides) up until the middle of the right half, 50% food surplus going from S1 to S2.

S1<->S2 industry slider is moved to 20% export to S2. Slider cannot go any further without more industry buildings/tech unlock effects.



Second state:

S1 takes advantage of 50 food surplus (exports 50), and 80 industry (exports 20).

S2 takes advantage of 100 food surplus, 70 industry.



Player colonizes System 3, adjacent to S2 but having no connection to S1.

Player decides to give S3 a helping start.



S3: 10 food surplus, 10 industry.

S2<->S3 food slider moved to 50% to S3.

S2<->S3 industry slider moved to 20% to S3.



Third state:

S1 takes advantage of 50 food surplus (exports 50), and 80 industry (exports 20).

S2 takes advantage of 50 food surplus (imports 50, exports 50), 56 industry (exports 14).

S3 takes advantage of 60 food surplus, 24 industry.



Now player colonizes System 4, which is adjacent to both S1 and S2.

Player slides S2<->S4 food and industry slides to 50% food and 20% industry to S4.



S4: 10 food surplus, 10 industry.



Fourth state:

S1 takes advantage of 50 food surplus (exports 50), and 80 industry (exports 20).

S2 takes advantage of 50 food surplus (imports 50, exports 50 [25foreachS3andS4]), 56 industry (exports 14, 7 for each S3 and S4).

S3 takes advantage of 35 food surplus, 17 industry.

S4 takes advantage of 35 food surplus, 17 industry.



So the planets can receive surplus which adds to their 'personal surplus', and this is shared proportionately to the export sliders on each lane.

xfstef wrote:
Well no. They shouldn't leave multiplayer to die. Just because something is hard that doesn't mean that we should give up. I like to think that Amplitude love challenges.



So the next argument would be to allow multiple game modes in order to address both online and offline play. While this would seem like the best option to make everyone happy please consider that it would add a tremendous stress on the overall design of the game so that it remains fun and attractive in both circumstances, without breaking the core mechanics. This would also mean that the game would most likely feel like a completely different beast in online mode than it does offline which would make things unintuitive and frustrating to players.



I just hope people get the best management experience while still playing a game that is fun in multiplayer and doesn't bore you to death while waiting for your opponents turn.

I'm not saying don't even bother putting a multiplayer option in the game. What I am saying is they only have so much time to work on the game, and so many decisions about what to do. If it comes down to a decision that benefits a few while taking a way from the majority, that's something that needs to be well and truly analysed if it's the best one to do. For example, Forza Motorsport had a tremendous single-player component, but the concepts used there didn't always make for the best multiplayer game (Imbalances, slow progression, limited field of cars). Multiplayer was still in the game, just not as the primary focus. Could they have tried to reinvigorate the multiplayer aspect of racing games by forcing more decisions in the direction of multiplayer? Absolutely, and it might have even succeeded as in the cases of Test Drive Unlimited and Need for Speed. But it also would have alienated those who helped build them up in the first place.



I have nothing against multiplayer. Hell, I'll almost certainly use it to duke it out with my brother and friends when we can find time. But a 4X is one of those genres where singleplayer should absolutely be the primary focus.