Renaming Pacifist into...

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Oct 31, 2016, 8:20:10 PM

mixerria wrote:

Exactly this! Another example could be renaming the parties of the Lumeris like the families. (Not sure if that would be fitting the lore, though... but I guess you get the idea. :D) However, I am not sure what you mean by 'politically biased faction techs'.

Sorry, I can't help abusing the word "biased"

I mean faction techs that advance the faction's basic ideology.

This is a good idea, too. But in this case I'd rather not have the prevalent party and the type of government displayed as a title, but rather just as a sub-info.

Ok, that's good too. It will help to avoid weird long phrases like "Plutocratic Federation of the United Empire".

Anyway, it would be interesting if one was getting a bonus for diplomatic actions with a faction with a faction with a same or similar type of government.

Hah! This discussion is increasingly moving towards the Game Design sub-forum!

I really like this idea. A better relation between internal and external politics is what the current political system lacks. I would like develop your idea more specifically; and here I will interpret "diplomatic actions" as treaties (cooperation) and declarations (competition) alike.

While a "bonus" may be implemented in various complex ways, I will consider the simplest one to begin with - influence costs of diplomatic actions.

Theory: factions with the same prevalent party should have influence discount on treaties and declarations.

Justification: similarity of ideologies (ideologies of 2 states can't be absolutely identical) is a basis for either an increased mutual understanding or hatred. Let me explain with examples of attitudes.

Prevalent parties	Cooperation	Competition
Religious	They might be misled now but we are moving to a common goal of embracing the Sacred.	Burn the heretics!
Scientific	We+they=knowledge*2	Knowledge*fools=disaster
Industrialist	Alone, we are building a new empire. Together, we are building a new world.	Your empire is either a factory to acquire or a scrap to process. This way or another, keep away from my resources!
Ecologist	The environment they form might be non-idyllic for our species, but I am glad their new colony is not a toxic wasteland inhabited by zombie-worms any more.	Environment-friendly? Here, we call it pollution.
Militarist	We truly respect the way you fearlessly nuked this planet of disgusting unicorns.	I am confused: if militarists kill each other, is it war or friendship?
Commercialist	What about a joint venture?	Look, I bought that star system at the latest auction and I need it for my trade route. What?! You don't acknowledge our constellation's securities?!
Pacifist	Let's stroll hand in hand and smell flowers.	Our pacifism is stronger than your pacifism! (another reason for renaming Pacifists)

Conclusion.

In general terms, I hope influence costs of diplomatic treaties will be low and the proposed mechanics will be just a minor feature, but if the idea is expended, we will have situations where international framework will influence a players' decision on how to play domestic politics. What if an efficient cooperation with an ally or a stronger empire becomes crucial for survival? The other empire's "soft power" enters the stage and reconfigure your senate by your hands.

And who knows? Maybe, another day your stronger partner decides to change the authorities of your star systems as it often happens to satellite governments.

Updated 8 years ago.

Sotnik

Amoeba

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Nov 23, 2016, 6:38:52 PM

mixerria wrote:
mixerria wrote:
Sotnik wrote:
The damn mobile version of G2G does not allow to reply properly. I suggest brainstorming a bit more here and then create a topic in the Game Design sub-forum to sum up the proposals of our "joint work group" :).
If you'd like, sure, I'm in. ^^

I'm going to write a first draft for the different names of the parties for the factions and post it here.

Edit: Here is the first draft.

But before that, keep in mind, I don't see parties neccessarily as parties in a electoral democratic system. They could as well be just interest groups or even something else, depending on whatever faction/government one plays. That's why they may not have "party" in their name.

Party / interest group name
Sophons
Vodyani
Lumeris
Craver
Unfallen
United Empire
Horatio
Religious
Postrealism Party
Church of the Virtual Endless
Transcendence Party
Heroists
Spirituals
Propaganda Union
Church of Horatio
Scientific
Progress Party
Sect of Ascendance
Exploration Party
Assimilators
Seekers
Science Union

Industrialist
Builder Party
Sect of Creation
Production Party
Exploiters

Industrial Union

Ecologist
Environmental Party
Sect of Preservation
Growth Party
Eaters
Seeders
Agriculture Union

Militarist
Weapon Testing Party
Sect of Purgation
Acquisition Party
Expansionists
Augmenters
Arms Union

Commercialist / Pacifist
Cooperation Party
Sect of Collection
Trade Party

Commerce Union

Not finished, obviously. ;) UE and Horatio are only half-confirmed, so far. I had their ES1-background in mind when choosing their party names.

There are of course some pros and cons for using faction-specific party names, though I'm not yet writing them down til the final suggestion. :P
If anyone cares: I made a idea here https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/ideas/67-different-party-names-for-each-major-faction

Thank you for the initiative! I have little time for G2G nowadays, but I am looking forward to study your Idea submission asap!

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Nov 23, 2016, 2:01:35 PM

mixerria wrote:
Sotnik wrote:
The damn mobile version of G2G does not allow to reply properly. I suggest brainstorming a bit more here and then create a topic in the Game Design sub-forum to sum up the proposals of our "joint work group" :).
If you'd like, sure, I'm in. ^^

I'm going to write a first draft for the different names of the parties for the factions and post it here.

Edit: Here is the first draft.

But before that, keep in mind, I don't see parties neccessarily as parties in a electoral democratic system. They could as well be just interest groups or even something else, depending on whatever faction/government one plays. That's why they may not have "party" in their name.

Party / interest group name
Sophons
Vodyani
Lumeris
Craver
Unfallen
United Empire
Horatio
Religious
Postrealism Party
Church of the Virtual Endless
Transcendence Party
Heroists
Spirituals
Propaganda Union
Church of Horatio
Scientific
Progress Party
Sect of Ascendance
Exploration Party
Assimilators
Seekers
Science Union

Industrialist
Builder Party
Sect of Creation
Production Party
Exploiters

Industrial Union

Ecologist
Environmental Party
Sect of Preservation
Growth Party
Eaters
Seeders
Agriculture Union

Militarist
Weapon Testing Party
Sect of Purgation
Acquisition Party
Expansionists
Augmenters
Arms Union

Commercialist / Pacifist
Cooperation Party
Sect of Collection
Trade Party

Commerce Union

Not finished, obviously. ;) UE and Horatio are only half-confirmed, so far. I had their ES1-background in mind when choosing their party names.

There are of course some pros and cons for using faction-specific party names, though I'm not yet writing them down til the final suggestion. :P

If anyone cares: I made a idea here https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/ideas/67-different-party-names-for-each-major-faction

Sotnik

Amoeba

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 8:40:07 PM

radlawnmower wrote:
The problem with naming them something like "commercialist", "economist", "mercantile", or "capitalist" is that it is only a good fit for the Lumeris. It would make no sense for the Unfallen and most likely the unrevealed Minor Factions to be named this.
How about instead, it is called something like "cooperative" or "interdependent". Something that really says "I go out of my way to work with others instead of against them". I would say "harmonious", but there are obvious issues with that.

Hi! We have multiple issues with Unfallen.

1) There is currently no justification for them being obsessed with Dust, so the technological way of "Pacifists" is not suitable for them.

2) They are overdependent on food due to their mechanics.

3) Their ships are Unfallen species surviving a very extreme environment.

= Unfallen will be Ecologists. Even if they don't start as Ecologists they will become the ones after the 1st election. And their lore favors this ideology.

The only way to avoid a shift to Ecologist ideology is to give them a trait amplifying "Pacifist" party by Ecologist techs and buildings. But this trait is already occupied by Lumeris (Hedonism). Solution: replace ecological Hedonism of Lumeris by religious Hedonism or change the trait in another way. However, this does not address the item 1).

The alternative I like more is to allow Unfallen being inherently Ecologist while giving them faction-specific Ecologist techs/buildings that promote a peaceful gameplay if their traits are not enough.

mezmorki wrote:
Commercialist sounds clunky. What about Mercantile?

I thought about that before the word Commercialist was proposed by AndreasK. The issue with "Mercantile" is that it implies a reference to one of economist theories which does not correctly reflect ES2 economics. However, if this word does not have such a connotation in English it can be appropriate. I will note at the OP.

VieuxChat wrote:
Isn't the ability to understand others and work with them called "empathy" ?
So shouldn't they be empathists ?

I suppose this word is too positive for ES2 and shares the drawback of "Pacifist". The United Empire can become kind and good - as well as Cravers and any other faction (though I still hope "UE" is a placeholder). But it will be really immersion breaking if Pacifists or Empathists declare war on me - and they will from time to time.

However, your suggestion made me think of another variant: Globalist. This word is a crossroad where Cooperation and Greediness meet.

mixerria wrote:

But before that, keep in mind, I don't see parties neccessarily as parties in a electoral democratic system. They could as well be just interest groups or even something else, depending on whatever faction/government one plays. That's why they may not have "party" in their name.

I find this idea even more important than creating additional party titles. The word "Party" looks weird in relation to a half of known ES2 factions.

There are of course some pros and cons for using faction-specific party names, though I'm not yet writing them down til the final suggestion. :P

I believe that if it even turns out to be over-complicated to have all the parties titled differently, the idea is quite useful in particular cases. For example, in compliance with the lore, Vodyani are always ruled by the Church despite a prevalent party. Consequently, they are inherently religious and the Religious party should be renamed into something like Purist Party.

Updated 8 years ago.

mezmorki

Amoeba

To boldly go... Or something...

mezmorki

Amoeba

17 400g2g pts

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 4:48:26 PM

Commercialist sounds clunky. What about Mercantile?

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 2:44:09 PM

Sotnik wrote:
The damn mobile version of G2G does not allow to reply properly. I suggest brainstorming a bit more here and then create a topic in the Game Design sub-forum to sum up the proposals of our "joint work group" :).

If you'd like, sure, I'm in. ^^

I'm going to write a first draft for the different names of the parties for the factions and post it here.

Edit: Here is the first draft.

But before that, keep in mind, I don't see parties neccessarily as parties in a electoral democratic system. They could as well be just interest groups or even something else, depending on whatever faction/government one plays. That's why they may not have "party" in their name.

Party / interest group name	Sophons	Vodyani	Lumeris	Craver	Unfallen	United Empire	Horatio
Religious	Postrealism Party	Church of the Virtual Endless	Transcendence Party	Heroists	Spirituals	Propaganda Union	Church of Horatio
Scientific	Progress Party	Sect of Ascendance	Exploration Party	Assimilators	Seekers	Science Union
Industrialist	Builder Party	Sect of Creation	Production Party	Exploiters		Industrial Union
Ecologist	Environmental Party	Sect of Preservation	Growth Party	Eaters	Seeders	Agriculture Union
Militarist	Weapon Testing Party	Sect of Purgation	Acquisition Party	Expansionists	Augmenters	Arms Union
Commercialist / Pacifist	Cooperation Party	Sect of Collection	Trade Party			Commerce Union

Not finished, obviously. ;) UE and Horatio are only half-confirmed, so far. I had their ES1-background in mind when choosing their party names.

There are of course some pros and cons for using faction-specific party names, though I'm not yet writing them down til the final suggestion. :P

Anyway, feel free to comment this draft.

Updated 8 years ago.

Sotnik

Amoeba

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 1:05:56 PM

The damn mobile version of G2G does not allow to reply properly. I suggest brainstorming a bit more here and then create a topic in the Game Design sub-forum to sum up the proposals of our "joint work group" :).

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 12:34:55 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
radlawnmower wrote:
The problem with naming them something like "commercialist", "economist", "mercantile", or "capitalist" is that it is only a good fit for the Lumeris. It would make no sense for the Unfallen and most likely the unrevealed Minor Factions to be named this.
How about instead, it is called something like "cooperative" or "interdependent". Something that really says "I go out of my way to work with others instead of against them". I would say "harmonious", but there are obvious issues with that.
Isn't the ability to understand others and work with them called "empathy" ?
So shouldn't they be empathists ?

The "empathist" party of the United Empire would be the laughing stock number one, for sure... :P But to be honest, your idea actually reflects the spirit of the pacifist party pretty well, I guess.

Anyway, this just shows how good faction-specific party names would be. I will add a suggestion today.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

25 400g2g pts

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 11:36:35 AM

radlawnmower wrote:
The problem with naming them something like "commercialist", "economist", "mercantile", or "capitalist" is that it is only a good fit for the Lumeris. It would make no sense for the Unfallen and most likely the unrevealed Minor Factions to be named this.
How about instead, it is called something like "cooperative" or "interdependent". Something that really says "I go out of my way to work with others instead of against them". I would say "harmonious", but there are obvious issues with that.

Isn't the ability to understand others and work with them called "empathy" ?

So shouldn't they be empathists ?

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 9:48:40 AM

radlawnmower wrote:
The problem with naming them something like "commercialist", "economist", "mercantile", or "capitalist" is that it is only a good fit for the Lumeris. It would make no sense for the Unfallen and most likely the unrevealed Minor Factions to be named this.
How about instead, it is called something like "cooperative" or "interdependent". Something that really says "I go out of my way to work with others instead of against them". I would say "harmonious", but there are obvious issues with that.

That's annother reason why faction-specific party names would make sense. (See some posts above)

radlawnmower

Amateur

radlawnmower

Amateur

15 400g2g pts

8 years ago

Nov 1, 2016, 1:30:12 AM

The problem with naming them something like "commercialist", "economist", "mercantile", or "capitalist" is that it is only a good fit for the Lumeris. It would make no sense for the Unfallen and most likely the unrevealed Minor Factions to be named this.

How about instead, it is called something like "cooperative" or "interdependent". Something that really says "I go out of my way to work with others instead of against them". I would say "harmonious", but there are obvious issues with that.

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Oct 31, 2016, 11:16:01 PM

Sotnik wrote:
mixerria wrote:

Exactly this! Another example could be renaming the parties of the Lumeris like the families. (Not sure if that would be fitting the lore, though... but I guess you get the idea. :D) However, I am not sure what you mean by 'politically biased faction techs'.

Sorry, I can't help abusing the word "biased"
I mean faction techs that advance the faction's basic ideology.

Ah, I seem to understand. :D

This is a good idea, too. But in this case I'd rather not have the prevalent party and the type of government displayed as a title, but rather just as a sub-info.
Ok, that's good too. It will help to avoid weird long phrases like "Plutocratic Federation of the United Empire".

Especially not only if it is too long but also when it seems to contradict itself, just as in your example. ;)

Anyway, it would be interesting if one was getting a bonus for diplomatic actions with a faction with a faction with a same or similar type of government.
Hah! This discussion is increasingly moving towards the Game Design sub-forum!
I really like this idea. A better relation between internal and external politics is what the current political system lacks. I would like develop your idea more specifically; and here I will interpret "diplomatic actions" as treaties (cooperation) and declarations (competition) alike.
While a "bonus" may be implemented in various complex ways, I will consider the simplest one to begin with - influence costs of diplomatic actions.

Hmm, reducing influence cost (as a bonus) for beneficial actions would indeed make sense, although I'm undecided about hostile actions being cheaper.

Theory: factions with the same prevalent party should have influence discount on treaties and declarations.
Justification: similarity of ideologies (ideologies of 2 states can't be absolutely identical) is a basis for either an increased mutual understanding or hatred. Let me explain with examples of attitudes.

Prevalent parties Cooperation Competition
Religious They might be misled now but we are moving to a common goal of embracing the Sacred. Burn the heretics!
Scientific We+they=knowledge*2 Knowledge*fools=disaster
Industrialist Alone, we are building a new empire. Together, we are building a new world. Your empire is either a factory to acquire or a scrap to process. This way or another, keep away from my resources!
Ecologist The environment they form might be non-idyllic for our species, but I am glad their new colony is not a toxic wasteland inhabited by zombie-worms any more. Environment-friendly? Here, we call it pollution.
Militarist We truly respect the way you fearlessly nuked this planet of disgusting unicorns. I am confused: if militarists kill each other, is it war or friendship?
Commercialist What about a joint venture? Look, I bought that star system at the latest auction and I need it for my trade route. What?! You don't acknowledge our constellation's securities?!
Pacifist
Let's stroll hand in hand and smell flowers.
Our pacifism is stronger than your pacifism! (another reason for renaming Pacifists)

This is a nice idea how this game mechanic could be displayed.

Sotnik

Amoeba

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Oct 26, 2016, 8:56:03 PM

Hi aliens!

It might be not a big issue, but I suppose the term "Pacifist" may be a bit misleading or inconsistent for players and game designers alike.

1) Pacifist laws and techs are mainly focused on trade, finance and happiness; the latter is often represented via techs and buildings related to consumerism. All these phenomena could be associated with peace but only to a limited extent. Moreover, in some cases war could be more beneficial for such a pace of social development when you need to capture economically crucial nodes or eliminate a competitor.

2) The other ideology titles propose some direction of development, some vision of the future and means to achieve it. On the contrary, "Pacifism" implies constraints, it dictates what you should not do but does not propose any driving agenda.

3) Industrialist and Ecologist, Religious and Scientific ideologies are at soft confrontations. They can co-exist in various forms like a recycling industry or studying supernatural anomalies and Endless ruins. As for Militarist and Pacifist, they are absolutely incompatible in respect of terminology and a senate split between them should feel like a civil war (or just beating pacifists because they are not really good at civil wars). But from the game design point of view, this situation is (almost?) ok, because "Pacifists" are not actually pacifists but rather...

and here I need your help < this yellow guy hints at the item 1.

UPDATE

The right naming is... Commercialist!

Thanks to AndreasK and his outstanding vocabulary the game eventually gets a chance to become a perfection!

However, there can be other good solutions! All the galaxies are totally hyped anticipating your proposals!

UPDATE

mezmorki proposed Mercantile

Sotnik (eventually) proposed Globalist

Updated 8 years ago.

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Oct 31, 2016, 5:51:58 PM

Sotnik wrote:
mixerria wrote:
Another idea may be that faction party has a different name for each party (icon/color stays the same, however). "Parties" or subfactions or whatever could have more lore-friendly names by that. Though I guess it could also be confusing to new players, I guess, it should not be that difficult to implement.

If anyone supports this, I might make a suggestion topic about this.
Hi! Do you mean, for example (obviously bad), renaming Religious Party into Virtual Church Party for Vodyani? That's an interesting improvement provided there are politically biased faction techs.

It might be also immersive and convenient to have an information on the prevailing party at the Diplomacy screen, like "Technocratic Dictatorship of Lumeris".

Exactly this! Another example could be renaming the parties of the Lumeris like the families. (Not sure if that would be fitting the lore, though... but I guess you get the idea. :D) However, I am not sure what you mean by 'politically biased faction techs'.

This is a good idea, too. But in this case I'd rather not have the prevalent party and the type of government displayed as a title, but rather just as a sub-info. (Post a suggestion topic if you like it, anyways; I'd still support it.) Anyway, it would be interesting if one was getting a bonus for diplomatic actions with a faction with a faction with a same or similar type of government.

Sotnik

Amoeba

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Oct 29, 2016, 11:45:28 AM

mixerria wrote:
Another idea may be that faction party has a different name for each party (icon/color stays the same, however). "Parties" or subfactions or whatever could have more lore-friendly names by that. Though I guess it could also be confusing to new players, I guess, it should not be that difficult to implement.

If anyone supports this, I might make a suggestion topic about this.

Hi! Do you mean, for example (obviously bad), renaming Religious Party into Virtual Church Party for Vodyani? That's an interesting improvement provided there are politically biased faction techs.

It might be also immersive and convenient to have an information on the prevailing party at the Diplomacy screen, like "Technocratic Dictatorship of Lumeris".

Updated 8 years ago.

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Oct 28, 2016, 8:59:28 AM

Another idea may be that faction party has a different name for each party (icon/color stays the same, however). "Parties" or subfactions or whatever could have more lore-friendly names by that. Though I guess it could also be confusing to new players, I guess, it should not be that difficult to implement.

If anyone supports this, I might make a suggestion topic about this.

Ansa

Craver

Ansa

Craver

11 600g2g pts

8 years ago

Oct 27, 2016, 11:09:57 PM

I just call my Craver zerg "Pacificators"...

VIPPangolinAdvisor

Fanatic

~Proud to be a SONE~ And also a maker of hundreds of videos for Amplitude's games ;)

VIPPangolinAdvisor

Fanatic

50 700g2g pts

8 years ago

Oct 27, 2016, 10:55:41 PM

AndreasK wrote:
They could call them commercialist

This, just so much of this!

Sotnik

Amoeba

Sotnik

Amoeba

8 years ago

Oct 27, 2016, 8:11:07 PM

AndreasK wrote:
They could call them commercialist

Yessss! This word! That's a turning point in the history of ES2! Thank you so much!

mixerria

Empire

"The Imperium of Man shall prevail, for the Emperor protects."

mixerria

Empire

8 years ago

Oct 27, 2016, 3:26:48 PM

AndreasK wrote:
Haha the poll options are great. I imagine it is a leftover from when they had more ideologies and decided to roll several into one. Or it is just an acknowledgement that trade generally works best in peace times. They could call them commercialist but I dont mind them being called pacifist.

Hmm, "Commercialist" has a nice ring to it, too...

AndreasK

Space Pilgrim

Thunder rolled... it rolled a six!