Hmmm I see...

So, to what point do you think the Pirates should be able to keep up with the players? 

I mean, I don't think Pirate Carriers (Large Hulls) fully outfitted with level 5 weapons and defenses should be a thing as they should always remain beatable by most players once they got a good military force up and running. Also, lore-wise and gameplay-wise it'd be difficult to understand how Pirates could manage to get the same weaponry than a full-fledged Empire with 6-10 systems.

If you think otherwise please do not hesitate to explain why, though

As of my most recent games with the Riftborn Patch, Pirates can be either acceptable challenges, or supremely annoying hindrances.

What do you think of the Pirates' initial spawn timing?

The spawn timing should be delayed slightly, as I have had pirate ships which can wreck my early scouts (since I can't afford to upgrade them yet) at turn 7.  This is particularly frustrating for Horatio, who has to pay additional industry for ships.  I would say that pirates could start spawning at Minimum Turn 15, but 20 would be more acceptable, and would be akin to Endless Legend.

What do you think of the Pirates' spawn frequency?

The frequency is too high, and in many cases is either absurd or doesn't really fit with the lore of the faction (more on that later).  In one of my most recent Vodyani games, I was draining essence from a minor faction (the Niris, I think) and they created a pirate vessel in orbit to attack me, every single turn.

What do you think of the Pirates' relative strength?

Pirates have an unpredictable strength (which is appropriate, because... pirates), however two things come to mind when thinking about rotten pirate encounters; "Too early", and "But I just got better ships".  In the first case, pirates would spawn so early that I would have to run around in circles with my scouts not really being able to explore, and constantly having to retreat because combat was unwinnable.  In the second case, I would just have researched Efficient Shielding, gaining access to more dedicated combat ships, building those ships, and setting them to protect against the source of the pirate ships, when they would magically have built a larger more powerful vessel to challenge me the next turn.  "Haha, now I have 5 ships in orbit, that should keep you at bay for... Ok Now You Have A Giant Ship and Two Little ones Attacking me?  HOW?  Did You Just Research Efficient Shielding Too???"  Pirates are wild and inconsistent, but it really shouldn't feel like no matter what your empire has, they just got a special tool to beat you.

Do you have any other remarks, feedback or suggestion?

One thing that is really weird, from a lore standpoint, is that all pirates come from minor factions... including pacifists.  "Oh no, the Pacifist Pirates are coming to get me"...  "These Scientists are really out for blood"...  "Not the Ecologists, they are going to destroy my fleet!"...  It seems really odd that minor factions with specific political ideologies, especially those dedicated to peace, are still inclined to create pirate fleets at an awe-inspiring rate.  A suggestion:  Change the priority and behavior of ships / fleets being constructed by minor factions according to the politics of that specific minor faction.

Militarists - Creates pirate vessels, puts them together in fleets to attack ships and reduce FIDSI of neighboring systems within constellations.  (basically behaving the way they do now)

Ecologists - Creates a small fleet of ships that remain in orbit around their home system, they force you to stop in their system before being allowed to move again, and will defend themselves if they are attacked.

Industrialists - Acts similarly to Militarists, but creates fleets of fewer, stronger ships.

Religious - Creates small ships and sends one to each and every system within the constellation where they stay in orbit and disrupt FIDSI until they are destroyed.

Scientists - Creates a fleet of ships that stay in orbit and protect their home system, also creates scout ships that move through the constellation without attacking anyone.

Pacifists - Creates small ships, very slowly, one at a time, that move through the galaxy.  If these ships are encountered by a major faction, there is a chance that the ship gives the faction a quest, otherwise the ship disappears.

All in all, I think that pirates are necessary to the game, I would just like to see some balance changes so that they are not constantly spawning, constantly annoying, and I am never being attacked by pacifists.

This is, mind you, all from the current 0.2.0 beta build.

What do you think of the Pirates' initial spawn timing?

The spawn timing is acceptable. A slight delay wouldn't hurt, but that might clash with the roadblock that pirates essentially are.

What do you think of the Pirates' spawn frequency?

Initially, they spawn at a reasonable tempo, but a few dozen turns in it gets absurd. This may be linked to the larger amount of minor factions that are currently active in the beta build. From turn 40ish onwards, most turns I had to click through (on average) about 15 fleets worth of pirate ships, with most "fleets" consisting solely of a single vessel. These were engagements with only two of my own fleets, and it gets incredibly cumbersome and annoying.

What do you think of the Pirates' relative strength?

Pirates feel appropriate in their current strength. From what I summize, they're not intended to be dominating powers, but they do require the player to adequately defend themselves and/or their vulnerable vessels.

Do you have any other remarks, feedback or suggestion?

I noticed that, even while I was destroying dozens of pirate ships per turn, the heroes assigned to the aforementioned two fleets were barely gaining any XP whatsoever, while the hero I had assigned to my home system was leveling up every other turn. Fleet-assigned heroes desperately need to gain more XP.

CappinCanuck wrote:

One small point to take into consideration from a lot of beta testing experience in the past is to wait a bit before making changes.  Overall, it seems like a happy medium, perhaps with a few tweaks, except for the Horatio.  A race that has only been released, on a test build nonetheless, for 4 days.  Might be worth waiting for the general release and letting people get playing the new race and then revisit it.  

I struggled with the pirates a bit with the Sophons for example until I got better with them, keeping pirates in mind, and better at the game in general.  Now, I would say the pirates are barely worth a consideration in the early game and should be buffed.  

Just a thought.  Might be worth letting everyone ruminate with all the races, new content, and get a bit of time in each before looking at the balance of the races or pirates.

This guy is talking God's honest truth.

One small point to take into consideration from a lot of beta testing experience in the past is to wait a bit before making changes.  Overall, it seems like a happy medium, perhaps with a few tweaks, except for the Horatio.  A race that has only been released, on a test build nonetheless, for 4 days.  Might be worth waiting for the general release and letting people get playing the new race and then revisit it.  

I struggled with the pirates a bit with the Sophons for example until I got better with them, keeping pirates in mind, and better at the game in general.  Now, I would say the pirates are barely worth a consideration in the early game and should be buffed.  

Just a thought.  Might be worth letting everyone ruminate with all the races, new content, and get a bit of time in each before looking at the balance of the races or pirates.

WeaponizedCaffeine wrote:

Hmmm I see...

So, to what point do you think the Pirates should be able to keep up with the players? 

I mean, I don't think Pirate Carriers (Large Hulls) fully outfitted with level 5 weapons and defenses should be a thing as they should always remain beatable by most players once they got a good military force up and running. Also, lore-wise and gameplay-wise it'd be difficult to understand how Pirates could manage to get the same weaponry than a full-fledged Empire with 6-10 systems.

If you think otherwise please do not hesitate to explain why, though

To me, it seems by mid-game the pirates shouldn't really be much of a threat unless part of a quest line. By mid game most other factions should be discovered and i feel like the game would be revolving around the factions. Like in endless legend, by mid game the units being produced by the minor factions are non-existant because the minors have been pacified or the units that spwn are just brushed aside. Just curious. What is the current spawn rate for the pirates?

Ship capture and / or old ships found from old ES1 dying empires ? Or those barbarian pirates that would be former Vaulters ?

So here's the situation. I am playing as the Vodyani. Starting around turn 10 the pirates seem to start spawning. Almost every turn after turn 10 I am attacked by between 1 and 4 pirate ships. Even after completing the 1st Vod quest to destroy the pirates, they spawn at a very high rate. From turns 10 to 25 I must have fought 20+ pirate ships. Is this normal behavior? is it a bug? or am I missing something about keeping pirates from spawning. Do they spawn from minor factions? It just seems like a massive excess.

nalgasucia507 wrote:

All three feedback and suggestions above my post are exactly what I was thinking.

I would love to see them scale with time. Even late game they could become a quest everybody gets because a pirate lord has stolen several dreadnaughts and plans to kill everybody. So when you locate their den (could be a system with no lanes in middle area of map or a system right in the middle of map) you could ally with them and direct their attacks or crush them with a very high reward. (10*currentincome)

There could also be pirate havens (one per constellation) that are too strong to deal early game (maybe in the middle of the galaxy where there are lots of resources) and thus provide great reward but great risk as well.

They spawn rate and when they spawn is fine, they just need to be able to merge and prioritize targets/destination.

I really like these ideas!

I feel like the pirates spawn at a good time in the game. I feel like they spawn too frequently, but that may be because their fleets are never merged. Having 3 pirates battels in a single turn is more annoying than it is challenging. I like the concept of the pirates, but at times they just feel like they get in the way of the game when they swarm. It's just a thought, but would it be reasonable to have pirates favor orbiting systems that haven't been colonized rather than rush homeworlds? That would still help to prevent mass expansion I think. Maybe have an an algorythm for the pirates that's something similar to 

highest priority - raid/attack outposts developing into colonies

secondary priority - partol uncolonized space attacking all non pirate ships

tertiary priority - riad/attack colonized systems

To me this seems more along the lines of what a pirate would do. To pick off the weak points and never really enguage into the main force of a faction. 

Thank you for your response. I'm glad Amplitude takes the time to listen to the community :D

Here's my take : I've played sphons then lumeris and the result has been quite different. 

With lumeris they were swatted quite early and I didn't mind them most of the time, to the point I even felt lacking "action". 

With the sophons, due to the huge issue of industry on their homeworld I couldn't afford ships for a long time (and worse, I played in slow setting) soon there were huge pirate fleets circling around my planets. But here's the catch. I let those 10 cp strong fleets do their things since they didn't invade and I wasn't using my manpower for anything. Way later I build a couple T2 hulls and starting cleaning the mess but the whole things felt weird. 

Weird because I couldn't stop the pirates at all for a big while, and weird because I could still trade and let them siege my systems...

In retrospect : spawn time is fine, increase may be too strong. 

I'd like to have them both affect me more and me handling them more too.

Aka if they win battles they start increasing (it's likely to be the case already). Let them have pirate systems/havens after a while, that I can clean up to make things safer. Make the population not be too happy about them roaming free in our systems. And of course, as Lumeris, let me bribe them to scuttle out (and see other factions maybe ? tee hee~) 

Thank you for your feedback!

make them be able to merge fleets

Yep, that's the plan. As I told phanemy, Pirates merging into bigger fleets is the intended behavior  It just doesn't really work for now

Once the game is balanced, we might learn to love the pirates for building XP for fleets and heroes, like the barbarians in Civ. It's just a bit rough right now in the early game.