Ecologist Horatio?

Well, I'm not entirely surprised, Make The Galaxy Beautiful Again and all that, but it's a bit strange.

Well I had hoped to see the Automatons make a return. They would fit into the ecologist role pretty well. That is the one race I wanted from the first game to make a comeback.

Mailanka wrote:

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)

Some diversity within each faction is a good thing. However, unless we get some new ecology laws then that ideology is the only one that would be fairly useless to the riftborn. The others (apart from maybe religious?) all seem potentially applicable to them. Judging from their ideology wheel, they'll have the easiest time going industrial or science; probably a combo of both. In any case, it makes much more sense to have the unfallen be the predominantly ecological faction. 

Tortoiseer wrote:

Mailanka wrote:

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)

Some diversity within each faction is a good thing. However, unless we get some new ecology laws then that ideology is the only one that would be fairly useless to the riftborn. The others (apart from maybe religious?) all seem potentially applicable to them. Judging from their ideology wheel, they'll have the easiest time going industrial or science; probably a combo of both. In any case, it makes much more sense to have the unfallen be the predominantly ecological faction. 

That is, if they were redesigned. If not, then they are still Pacifists and the game will launch with no Ecologist faction.

The Unfallen are pacifists, maybe they are not Pacifists ?

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

The Unfallen are pacifists, maybe they are not Pacifists ?

They are supposed to be pacifists, but then again, the Riftborn were initially supposed to be ecologists.

Devs can change content that is not officially implemented yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they were changed to be Ecologists.

Then again, they might not have been, and we're stuck with no Ecologist faction.

UndeadPuppy wrote:

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

The Unfallen are pacifists, maybe they are not Pacifists ?

They are supposed to be pacifists, but then again, the Riftborn were initially supposed to be ecologists.

Devs can change content that is not officially implemented yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they were changed to be Ecologists.

Then again, they might not have been, and we're stuck with no Ecologist faction.

We also have to keep in mind that most of the Eco Laws give strength to empires that rely on species diversity. If the Unfallen's lore does not support this kind of gameplay, then Ecology wouldn't fit them.

Horatio are the Ecologists. Wiki is oudated on that, but it's also a bit behind on some other things. As we near release we'll review it to weed out the inaccuracies.

Frogsquadron wrote:

Horatio are the Ecologists. Wiki is oudated on that, but it's also a bit behind on some other things. As we near release we'll review it to weed out the inaccuracies.

That makes sense, so much so that I was surprised they were Religious in the first place; they're all about beauty, and few things are as likely to turn everthing into a garden as the Ecologist faction.  Now the Pilgrims can be properly Religious.

I meant "meant to be the Ecologists". As far as I am aware, this change is indeed implemented in Update 3 already.

Horatio => Ecologists

Riftborn => Industrialists

Mailanka wrote:

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)

I know. One of my favourite ways of playing the Horatio is going full on pop growth Ecologist. Great way to expand quickly.

Ecologist laws are great for that.

It's not "ecologist" in the strict environmental sense, it's more... "food-oriented". 

Frogsquadron wrote:

Horatio => Ecologists

Wow, I was right! omg

Frogsquadron wrote:

It's not "ecologist" in the strict environmental sense, it's more... "food-oriented". 

Makes sense for the Horatio to be Ecologists. They need all the food they can get.

Frogsquadron wrote:

I meant "meant to be the Ecologists". As far as I am aware, this change is indeed implemented in Update 3 already.

Horatio => Ecologists

Riftborn => Industrialists

That's great! I play them as Ecologists anyway because it fits their theme and the Eco laws are super OP....well almost as OP as the Religious ones, but still good for expansion nonetheless.

Frogsquadron wrote:

I meant "meant to be the Ecologists". As far as I am aware, this change is indeed implemented in Update 3 already.

Horatio => Ecologists

Riftborn => Industrialists

Was the decision to make Horatio ecologists made before or after update 2? I'm asking because it seemed that, with all of their emphasis on beauty and the cloning thing, Horatio wanted to be ecologists just as much as they tended towards religion, and while their appearance as religious in U2 made sense, it was also unexpected.

Also, about the Ecologist ideology in general: as you say, it's more about food, population, and happiness than an actual environmentalist mindset. At it stands currently the focus on population diversity (as biodiversity) is one of the few things, and the only key aspect of the ideology, that really fits with an environmentalist/ecologist mindset. (At least from my perspective as an environmentalist in the U.S.)

The first ecologist building is... a supermarket. That's not something that we view as particularly aligned with our values, honestly. It seems more like a holdover from the previous game that was labeled ecologist because that's how you distributed the goals and tendencies of each ideology. Many other things would make more sense in that role... that building could be a series of parks integrated into urban centers, for example, because IRL maintaining green/natural spaces for public access is an important and well-received goal of environmental groups. Another weird decision was making the luxury-boosted industrial farm an ecologist building, which again doesn't really align with environmentalist ideals but makes sense in-game as ecologist=food.

You know, I think a problem with FIDSI values being tied to individual ideologies is that it leaves no room for more complex development of those ideologies as they are represented in the game world. Industrial farming makes sense for an Industrialist party, but not for Ecologists, who would prefer a system that emphasizes diverse crop management that might require more complex effort to reach the same yields, but would have much less of a negative impact on the environment. Why should all influence buildings be religious? Diplomacy between empires is not managed based on who has the best-supported religious organizations, nor is all influence possessed by any group inherently based on values of something as 'greater' than themselves.

Tl;dr: this developed into a rant without meaning to. If at some future point you could develop the ideologies so that FIDSI yields were not tied as obsessively with individual ideologies, that'd be cool.

So Environmentalism is more of a support of all forms of life, including sapient, than the self-restriction it implies in our current technological and political climate, while the Religious party isn't so much a support of spiritualism than a movement to unify people under a common cause.

Orbotosh wrote:

So Environmentalism is more of a support of all forms of life, including sapient, than the self-restriction it implies in our current technological and political climate, while the Religious party isn't so much a support of spiritualism than a movement to unify people under a common cause.

Ecologist is more of a Multicultural, liberal, agricultural, self-sustaining empire than the greenpeace hippies we usually think of.

Orbotosh wrote:

So Environmentalism is more of a support of all forms of life, including sapient, than the self-restriction it implies in our current technological and political climate, while the Religious party isn't so much a support of spiritualism than a movement to unify people under a common cause.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the religious political faction. A common cause is not enough by itself. I mean the cravers are extremely unified in the common cause of eatin stuff but they are not particularly religious :)

It must be a unity driven by some sense of divine destiny, perfection, beauty, or similar mandate. I would not be surprised if the Horatio population (post update 3) derived ecological support from religious influences. 

Tortoiseer wrote:

Orbotosh wrote:

So Environmentalism is more of a support of all forms of life, including sapient, than the self-restriction it implies in our current technological and political climate, while the Religious party isn't so much a support of spiritualism than a movement to unify people under a common cause.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the religious political faction. A common cause is not enough by itself. I mean the cravers are extremely unified in the common cause of eatin stuff but they are not particularly religious :)

It must be a unity driven by some sense of divine destiny, perfection, beauty, or similar mandate. I would not be surprised if the Horatio population (post update 3) derived ecological support from religious influences. 

A hybrid ecological-religious political stance sounds like it would fit with them, sort of how the Pilgrims are Scientific-Religious. Still, reflecting on what's been written in this thread and others since my post, I'm not entirely sure I'd think the Horatio make more sense as primarily Ecologist rather than primarily Religious. The divine mission is strong with them, and though encouraging beautiful planets is often tied to Ecologists, for them the prime beauty, that which is above all other considerations, is Horatio; and the beautiful planets stems from their desires - it's secondary, adjunct.

The Ecologist political faction in this game is kind of hard to interpret, honestly. They want biodiversity (or cultural diversity) and peaceful growth. Their standard law allows for pioneering of new and unusual planet types, which is really cool but doesn't tie into the acceptance/encouragement of other species. And then there's the whole food thing.

This is a 4x game that doesn't utilize limited resources as a mechanic to shape gameplay (think about games like Age of Empires or Starcraft, where resource deposits are limited and their exhaustion breeds conflict), with the possible exception of the Cravers and their planetary depletion mechanic. Because of this, the 'self-restriction/self-limitation' that's inherent to environmentalist mindsets today doesn't really apply; some other aspect of that ideology needs to be emphasized in its place. Which I guess is 'ecologists = healthy land' -> 'healthy land=food'.

Last race are basically living trees and flowers. I doubt they will be anything other than ecologists. :P

Pretty sure the Unfallen will indeed be the ecologists ;)

They are designed as pacifists.

Except the Unfallen were designed from the get go as Pacifists.

I'm not saying that Amplitude can't change their minds and make them Ecologists, but that seems unlikely.

This political imbalance can only be resolved by adding the Automatons as a DLC faction. *hint* *hint*  

The Riftborn senat on the stream had a ecologist majority, so the wiki is probably wrong.

It sounds as though the Riftborn were originally intended to be the Ecologist faction, and the G2G Contest winner was the Pacifist one, but after the results of the contest they were swapped around. Also - I'm not sure how to quote from a different thread, but Devildog made an interesting comment here:

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/65-general/thread/24081-worries-about-creative-stagnation?page=1#post-228675

"And forget what you think you know about them. They've...evolved for the better!"

It makes me think that perhaps they have been redesigned to have more of an ecological focus. I guess we'll see in a month or so...

Mailanka wrote:

Cassadore wrote:

The Riftborn senat on the stream had a ecologist majority, so the wiki is probably wrong.

But you support and maintain an ecological ideology (in part) by building food-producing buildings and the riftborn don't eat food.  You build their pops, which means you want lots of industry, which is going to support an industrial political stance.  I mean, maybe they're doing it to be perverse or there's some other clue that we're missing, but if the wiki is wrong to list them as industrial, I find that counterintuitive.

Another way to do it is by building scout ships, which is the Riftborn's purpose here: exploration and gathering of knowledge about this universe to save their own. IMO, they could fit an eco-sci mixture.

According to the wiki, the Riftborn are Industrialists which means that there will be no faction starting with the Ecologist ideology when the game launches.

Like Trump, Amplitude has given up on the environment.

This saddens me greatly because the Ecologist party has some of the best laws in game.

Mailanka wrote:

ImperatorTempus42 wrote:

Mailanka wrote:

Cassadore wrote:

The Riftborn senat on the stream had a ecologist majority, so the wiki is probably wrong.

But you support and maintain an ecological ideology (in part) by building food-producing buildings and the riftborn don't eat food.  You build their pops, which means you want lots of industry, which is going to support an industrial political stance.  I mean, maybe they're doing it to be perverse or there's some other clue that we're missing, but if the wiki is wrong to list them as industrial, I find that counterintuitive.

Another way to do it is by building scout ships, which is the Riftborn's purpose here: exploration and gathering of knowledge about this universe to save their own. IMO, they could fit an eco-sci mixture.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but when your population depends on you having a lot of industrial buildings, and industrial buildings run counter to ecology, ecologism seems an odd ideology to follow.  They're also not really explorers so much as people trying to solve the problem our universe imposes on theirs, or so is my impression, and they seem an extremely ordered society, so that also makes sense for industrialism.  Finally, we have a new ecological minor race, which proves nothing, but they often pair the new major faction with a minor faction that has an opposing ideology, so an Industrial major faction across from an Ecological minor faction makes sense.

Of course, the wiki has been wrong before (Pilgrims are currently Religious, not Scientific, despite what the wiki says) and naturally, things can change, but I see a lot of arguments in favor of the wiki being correct.  And, of course, if you're willing to accept that the wiki could be wrong about their ideology, it's as easy to accept that the wiki could be wrong about their heroes ideology.

Let me give you my point of view about some of the issues you raise.

1) Why are you assuming that their pop depends on having a lot of industrial buildings? 

I mean, sure, they are not growing their pops and build them instead, but don't forget that they also receive a big bonus to production per pop and also have the ability to accelerate their production while on meantime slowing their opponent's by using their time dilation ability.

Besides, one could argue that Sophons are more in need of all the industrial buildings they can get, since their home planet yields absolutely 0 industry. 

2) IMHO the explorers theme fits them extremely well. This is not just another galaxy they got themselves into, but is instead a whole new universe with a new set of rules. What you take for granted is probably completely illogical for them and requires further study if they're about to unlock its secrets and find a way to close the rift that is.

3) There is only one example of minor faction opposing the major that came with a patch.

UE (industrialists) were followed by Pilgrims (Religious), Amoeba (Ecologists) & Z'Vali (Scientists):     So only Amoeba are opposite

Horatio (Religious) were followed by Tikanan (Militarists), Eyder (Religious) & Gnashast (Militarists): No opposing minors

So I don't see a pattern here.

4) Considering the Wiki, we already know that it is not wrong about the Riftborn leader's ideology, because it is the same as in the stream. That particular character was they only available, he was leading the Ecologists party, and they were in the majority.

Wouldn't you agree at least that if Eco is not fitting for their playstyle, they wouldn't rise to that much power? 

vahouth wrote:

@Malainka you miss my point.

Each major faction starts the game having only the hero of their main ideology.

In the stream we saw that the only hero available to the Riftborn, was the ecologist one.

Therefore they are Ecologists. It's as simple as that.

If that were the case then the population wouldn't be ideologically inclined towards industrialism, or have the trait anti-environmentalist.

Great...so basically if the Unfallen haven't been changed to Ecologists then the game will launch without a faction based on this ideology.

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)