Ecologist Horatio?

Well, I'm not entirely surprised, Make The Galaxy Beautiful Again and all that, but it's a bit strange.

Well I had hoped to see the Automatons make a return. They would fit into the ecologist role pretty well. That is the one race I wanted from the first game to make a comeback.

Mailanka wrote:

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)

Some diversity within each faction is a good thing. However, unless we get some new ecology laws then that ideology is the only one that would be fairly useless to the riftborn. The others (apart from maybe religious?) all seem potentially applicable to them. Judging from their ideology wheel, they'll have the easiest time going industrial or science; probably a combo of both. In any case, it makes much more sense to have the unfallen be the predominantly ecological faction. 

Tortoiseer wrote:

Mailanka wrote:

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)

Some diversity within each faction is a good thing. However, unless we get some new ecology laws then that ideology is the only one that would be fairly useless to the riftborn. The others (apart from maybe religious?) all seem potentially applicable to them. Judging from their ideology wheel, they'll have the easiest time going industrial or science; probably a combo of both. In any case, it makes much more sense to have the unfallen be the predominantly ecological faction. 

That is, if they were redesigned. If not, then they are still Pacifists and the game will launch with no Ecologist faction.

The Unfallen are pacifists, maybe they are not Pacifists ?

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

The Unfallen are pacifists, maybe they are not Pacifists ?

They are supposed to be pacifists, but then again, the Riftborn were initially supposed to be ecologists.

Devs can change content that is not officially implemented yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they were changed to be Ecologists.

Then again, they might not have been, and we're stuck with no Ecologist faction.

UndeadPuppy wrote:

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

The Unfallen are pacifists, maybe they are not Pacifists ?

They are supposed to be pacifists, but then again, the Riftborn were initially supposed to be ecologists.

Devs can change content that is not officially implemented yet. I wouldn't be surprised if they were changed to be Ecologists.

Then again, they might not have been, and we're stuck with no Ecologist faction.

We also have to keep in mind that most of the Eco Laws give strength to empires that rely on species diversity. If the Unfallen's lore does not support this kind of gameplay, then Ecology wouldn't fit them.

Horatio are the Ecologists. Wiki is oudated on that, but it's also a bit behind on some other things. As we near release we'll review it to weed out the inaccuracies.

Frogsquadron wrote:

Horatio are the Ecologists. Wiki is oudated on that, but it's also a bit behind on some other things. As we near release we'll review it to weed out the inaccuracies.

That makes sense, so much so that I was surprised they were Religious in the first place; they're all about beauty, and few things are as likely to turn everthing into a garden as the Ecologist faction.  Now the Pilgrims can be properly Religious.

I meant "meant to be the Ecologists". As far as I am aware, this change is indeed implemented in Update 3 already.

Horatio => Ecologists

Riftborn => Industrialists

Mailanka wrote:

UndeadPuppy wrote:

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

I want to highlight this.  When I'm discussing the Riftborn as Industrial I'm referring to their base ideology, what they develop most keenly, but note that at least the latest few Major Factions have been increasingly politically complex, and I think that's a good thing.  They give you an opposing minority faction, and they offer quests that push you in a variety of directions.  I was following the Sheredyn questline for the UE, and it pushed me in a distinctly militaristic bent.  Are the UE Industrial?  Yes, in the sense that their default stance pushes them in that direction.  Does that mean you cannot play them militarily?  Definitely not.

I have no idea in which directions they'll push the Riftborn, but I'd be disappointed if the only correct way to play them was Industrial (or whatever)

I know. One of my favourite ways of playing the Horatio is going full on pop growth Ecologist. Great way to expand quickly.

Ecologist laws are great for that.

It's not "ecologist" in the strict environmental sense, it's more... "food-oriented". 

Frogsquadron wrote:

Horatio => Ecologists

Wow, I was right! omg

Frogsquadron wrote:

It's not "ecologist" in the strict environmental sense, it's more... "food-oriented". 

Makes sense for the Horatio to be Ecologists. They need all the food they can get.

Frogsquadron wrote:

I meant "meant to be the Ecologists". As far as I am aware, this change is indeed implemented in Update 3 already.

Horatio => Ecologists

Riftborn => Industrialists

That's great! I play them as Ecologists anyway because it fits their theme and the Eco laws are super OP....well almost as OP as the Religious ones, but still good for expansion nonetheless.

Frogsquadron wrote:

I meant "meant to be the Ecologists". As far as I am aware, this change is indeed implemented in Update 3 already.

Horatio => Ecologists

Riftborn => Industrialists

Was the decision to make Horatio ecologists made before or after update 2? I'm asking because it seemed that, with all of their emphasis on beauty and the cloning thing, Horatio wanted to be ecologists just as much as they tended towards religion, and while their appearance as religious in U2 made sense, it was also unexpected.

Also, about the Ecologist ideology in general: as you say, it's more about food, population, and happiness than an actual environmentalist mindset. At it stands currently the focus on population diversity (as biodiversity) is one of the few things, and the only key aspect of the ideology, that really fits with an environmentalist/ecologist mindset. (At least from my perspective as an environmentalist in the U.S.)

The first ecologist building is... a supermarket. That's not something that we view as particularly aligned with our values, honestly. It seems more like a holdover from the previous game that was labeled ecologist because that's how you distributed the goals and tendencies of each ideology. Many other things would make more sense in that role... that building could be a series of parks integrated into urban centers, for example, because IRL maintaining green/natural spaces for public access is an important and well-received goal of environmental groups. Another weird decision was making the luxury-boosted industrial farm an ecologist building, which again doesn't really align with environmentalist ideals but makes sense in-game as ecologist=food.

You know, I think a problem with FIDSI values being tied to individual ideologies is that it leaves no room for more complex development of those ideologies as they are represented in the game world. Industrial farming makes sense for an Industrialist party, but not for Ecologists, who would prefer a system that emphasizes diverse crop management that might require more complex effort to reach the same yields, but would have much less of a negative impact on the environment. Why should all influence buildings be religious? Diplomacy between empires is not managed based on who has the best-supported religious organizations, nor is all influence possessed by any group inherently based on values of something as 'greater' than themselves.

Tl;dr: this developed into a rant without meaning to. If at some future point you could develop the ideologies so that FIDSI yields were not tied as obsessively with individual ideologies, that'd be cool.

So Environmentalism is more of a support of all forms of life, including sapient, than the self-restriction it implies in our current technological and political climate, while the Religious party isn't so much a support of spiritualism than a movement to unify people under a common cause.

Orbotosh wrote:

So Environmentalism is more of a support of all forms of life, including sapient, than the self-restriction it implies in our current technological and political climate, while the Religious party isn't so much a support of spiritualism than a movement to unify people under a common cause.

Ecologist is more of a Multicultural, liberal, agricultural, self-sustaining empire than the greenpeace hippies we usually think of.