ImperatorTempus42 wrote:

Mailanka wrote:

Cassadore wrote:

The Riftborn senat on the stream had a ecologist majority, so the wiki is probably wrong.

But you support and maintain an ecological ideology (in part) by building food-producing buildings and the riftborn don't eat food.  You build their pops, which means you want lots of industry, which is going to support an industrial political stance.  I mean, maybe they're doing it to be perverse or there's some other clue that we're missing, but if the wiki is wrong to list them as industrial, I find that counterintuitive.

Another way to do it is by building scout ships, which is the Riftborn's purpose here: exploration and gathering of knowledge about this universe to save their own. IMO, they could fit an eco-sci mixture.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but when your population depends on you having a lot of industrial buildings, and industrial buildings run counter to ecology, ecologism seems an odd ideology to follow.  They're also not really explorers so much as people trying to solve the problem our universe imposes on theirs, or so is my impression, and they seem an extremely ordered society, so that also makes sense for industrialism.  Finally, we have a new ecological minor race, which proves nothing, but they often pair the new major faction with a minor faction that has an opposing ideology, so an Industrial major faction across from an Ecological minor faction makes sense.

Of course, the wiki has been wrong before (Pilgrims are currently Religious, not Scientific, despite what the wiki says) and naturally, things can change, but I see a lot of arguments in favor of the wiki being correct.  And, of course, if you're willing to accept that the wiki could be wrong about their ideology, it's as easy to accept that the wiki could be wrong about their heroes ideology.

Well, here's the thing...

The Riftborn are supposed to be Industrialists according to the wiki, and yet, their first leader is an Ecologist.

I asked about it in the stream and they told me that they'll see what this is about, because the first draft had them as ecologists.

My guess is that the wiki is wrong. It's even hinted in one of the artwork where they hold a flower.

vahouth wrote:

Well, here's the thing...

The Riftborn are supposed to be Industrialists according to the wiki, and yet, their first leader is an Ecologist.

I asked about it in the stream and they told me that they'll see what this is about, because the first draft had them as ecologists.

My guess is that the wiki is wrong. It's even hinted in one of the artwork where they hold a flower.

"Matter deconstruction-experiment commencing in 5... 4... 3..."

Cassadore wrote:

The Riftborn senat on the stream had a ecologist majority, so the wiki is probably wrong.

But you support and maintain an ecological ideology (in part) by building food-producing buildings and the riftborn don't eat food.  You build their pops, which means you want lots of industry, which is going to support an industrial political stance.  I mean, maybe they're doing it to be perverse or there's some other clue that we're missing, but if the wiki is wrong to list them as industrial, I find that counterintuitive.

vahouth wrote:

Let me give you my point of view about some of the issues you raise.

1) Why are you assuming that their pop depends on having a lot of industrial buildings? 

Because if you need to build your population, and you want to build your population, it makes more sense to build industrial buildings than it does to build useless food buildings, and that creates Industrialism rather than Ecologism.

I mean, sure, they are not growing their pops and build them instead, but don't forget that they also receive a big bonus to production per pop and also have the ability to accelerate their production while on meantime slowing their opponent's by using their time dilation ability.

Besides, one could argue that Sophons are more in need of all the industrial buildings they can get, since their home planet yields absolutely 0 industry. 

I don't see how that's relevant.

2) IMHO the explorers theme fits them extremely well. This is not just another galaxy they got themselves into, but is instead a whole new universe with a new set of rules. What you take for granted is probably completely illogical for them and requires further study if they're about to unlock its secrets and find a way to close the rift that is.

Pure speculation

3) There is only one example of minor faction opposing the major that came with a patch.

UE (industrialists) were followed by Pilgrims (Religious), Amoeba (Ecologists) & Z'Vali (Scientists):     So only Amoeba are opposite

Horatio (Religious) were followed by Tikanan (Militarists), Eyder (Religious) & Gnashast (Militarists): No opposing minors

So I don't see a pattern here.

It's not proof that they're industrial, but it points more towards industrialism than ecologism.  For example, we now have three ecological minor factions: the Niris (new), the Epistis and the Amoeba, while only one Industrial (the Mavros).  If they wanted to have an Ecological race, and they wanted it to have an Industrial counterpart, their only choice is currently the Mavros.  Why not take the opportunity to introduce a new Industrial species, especially given the distinct lack of industrial ideology in the game?  If they want an industrial species counter-balanced by an ecological one, they have three minor factions to choose from.

4) Considering the Wiki, we already know that it is not wrong about the Riftborn leader's ideology, because it is the same as in the stream. That particular character was they only available, he was leading the Ecologists party, and they were in the majority.

Wouldn't you agree at least that if Eco is not fitting for their playstyle, they wouldn't rise to that much power? 

I think seeing an ecological majority in the stream is a good pointer towards their ecologists, but not proof.  They weren't at the beginning of their game, and we don't know the circumstances that lead up to it.  Also, we typically see a pattern of opposing ideologies in the minor race given to the major faction, thus it is reasonable to assume that, if they follow this pattern, that there's a strong pull towards Ecologism in the Riftborn empire from this minor faction counter-weight, and if you wanted to follow it and support it, you could.

What I'm saying is not that you have no leg to stand on.  They have an ecological hero, which would be weird for an industrial race (though note that the United Empire has an Ecologist hero, the Horatio and the Vodyani each have a Scientist hero, and the Sophons have a religious hero, so it's not that unprecedented, though the lack of a Riftborn industrial hero is definitely worth noting).  The stream seemed to show an ecological majority as well, and people tend to play towards the strengths of their race, and there's a lot that we don't know about the Riftborn.

But given that there's so little we know other than what they've told us, and given that they've told us that they're Industrial, I'm inclined to take them at their word.  It also makes sense, given that they need to build pops with industry rather than food, which is supported with Industrialism rather than Ecologism, and that we have far more counter-balance for Industrial factions than we do for Ecological factions.  Right now, if the Riftborn are industrial, we have a total of three Industrial factions (the UE, the Riftborn and the Mavros) and 3 ecological factions (the Niris, the Epistis and the Amoeba), which is much more symmetrical than the UE and the Mavros as industrial, and the Riftborn, Niris, Epistis and Amoeba as ecological.

We also don't know that things won't change, and there's a lot about the Riftborn that we simply don't know (one quick streaming does not make for a complete study of a race), so we'll literally know in just a week.  The only reason I feel any need to discuss this at all is that I feel like there's some pushback against the idea of them being industrial.  If it is, just let them be.  I'm pretty sure Amplitude knows what the balance of their factions is, and I'm sure one way or another, we'll see an Ecological major faction.

It makes sense to me that there probably won't be an ecological main faction assuming the Unfallen aren't getting the logical food bonus. The main path to becoming a major faction is aggressive expansionism and ambitious behavior, which is why there's an obvious slant in favor of Industrialism alongside both of the major Religious factions being transhumanist zealots. Environmentalism (at least in real life) is all about cautious self restriction, which runs counter to the central 4X strategy of colonization and industrialization. Note that although the benefits of Environmentalism are nearly universal, the Unfallen's unique biology/technology would explain why they would be the Ecologist main faction.

I don't know why people see Industrialist and Ecologist as completely incompatible. The Automatons blended these two aspects together along with isolationism quite well. 

The Pilgrims are both Religious and Scientific for example. There is no reason to paint them as complete opposites. 

The Riftborn being ecologists and having industrial bonuses isn't that far fetched, considering the mechanics of ES1 and ES2 factions. It also doesn't make sense not to have an Industrialist hero, considering that mechanics wise, every other faction has a corresponding one. It just doesn't make sense.

Ecologism is also not just about growing food in this game, that's just one way to boost approval of the ideology. They are also focused on approval, exploration, colonisation and ethnic diversity. 

Personally, I think they're Industrialists with some Eco-flavor gameplay, but we won't know for sure until a dev confirms it or the patch goes live, as the wiki is usually inconsistent and out of date, so it's not 100% reliable material.

@Malainka you miss my point.

Each major faction starts the game having only the hero of their main ideology.

In the stream we saw that the only hero available to the Riftborn, was the ecologist one.

Therefore they are Ecologists. It's as simple as that.