It is the vastly better option on larger empires.

-you save science and production from researching/building happiness improvments/techs

-you can choose system development resources which grant you whatever fidsi you want instead of wasting 2-3 slots for happiness

-some happiness penalties can not be overcome, e.g. large system with a lot of slaves for cravers. unless you eat a sizeable portion of the slaves.

Yes there are options, lots of them, but they don't scale particularly well. There comes a point where you are trying to effectively optimise a whole bunch of game systems to cope with the approval... or you can just enact the religious law. There's all this interesting and difficult stuff here that we can do, and then waaayyy over there is the religious law. It's like easy mode, suddenly half the game doesn't matter any more. Planet type? Who cares, colonise it! Slaves unruly? Who cares, enslave them all!

I'd just like something inbetween, so I can carry on using all the great stuff without going jihad crazy on the galaxy.

To my mind, the only thing an overcolonisation penalty achieves is reducing a player's exposure to a structural flaw in the game. Namely, micromanagement.

So the problem is not acquiring the whole galaxy, it's ruling it while maintaining the fun. Sure we have some automated tools to help, and other games have taken the route of enforced automation (Stellaris), but it seems these tools are always lacking in one way or another.

Painting the map is not weird. For some of us it's why we play! We conquer and we exterminate and it's unsatisfactory to be told we can't, especially for some gamey reason that doesn't make any sense and serves just to protect the designers from having to find a real solution to the micromanagement problem.

Emeshow wrote:

I am expansionist in most of my turn-based strategy games and this is the one game I have had a hard time playing because I can't expand. 

And this is the exact reason that I strongly support the game's current expansion mechanic, because this is the first game I feel that's actually gotten the Wide/Colonization-Rush problem of every 4x correct. If anything needs tweaking it's perhaps the expansion limit hard # based on map size. But removing or nerfing the mechanic as it is, is a big no-no.

The thing to remember here is that all players in the game are playing under the same limitations, so you should never feel hindered when you get near your limit. There are tools to get around these limitations (goverment, tech, laws) if you just must go as wide as possible, but you're not forced to to be competitive. It strikes a good balance, while at the same time cutting down on unnecessary colony spam micro later in the game.

I freaking love it, honestly.

Hi guys,

I noticed everyones discussion on this topic. I play a large map primarily with the United Empire. I focus on industry primarily as my government leading political party and science second. I have maxed out Tech and imporvements and terraformed planets to minimize the negative effects of over expansion but because of the map size it is a problem I can't ovoid. It is very annoying. I feel like there should be improvements either in minimizing the effects of overexpansion in the tech tree or providing more approval improvements that we are able to build.  That is only a simple and quick statement because it looks like everyone has touched in good detail on this matter. I am going to start downsizing my maps til maybe I don't have that issue. I saw someone mention the law for the religious party. I will try to check that out. I am expansionist in most of my turn-based strategy games and this is the one game I have had a hard time playing because I can't expand. I didn't have this issue in the first Endless Space. I will try different methods but expansion gives you resources and provides better FIDS if you colonize the right systems. This ultimately, for me, makes me a strong player in my games because of my economy.

Ozgwald wrote:

I think you should consider minor factions as population managment. It is a big thing in this game. The spaceport system needs an overhaul and with more information transparency, games should become a lot more strategic. 

i agree on the space port overhaul, the problem i see is that the game becomes slow when it is automated (like pre patch, when the ai would make full use of it). The last games i went for minor race bonuses was with the ue to get the hisso law.

The luxury resource that reduces the penalty by 50% is called Benthic Gems. Curiosity level 4.

you are right, i went through my late game saves from various races and found it in the fourth game session (oldest to newest). This is quite the indicator to it's rarity. Added to the op.

A grand empire is lategame, but if you hit tier 4 in teh science tree a wonder or science victory is more liekly to occur (again balance and fine tune). 

i only play with the military victory conditions. i never felt it satisfying in 4x games to just sit idle and research/build something.

Kornstalx wrote:

The one thing that will aggravate me the most about a new 4x is when I realize that playing wide and colonization-rushing are the most effective tactics to win. As soon as I realize this as truth, I lose the impetus to play. That said, I think ES's approach is absolutely perfect, and I applaud the devs for actually implementing the mechanic even knowing it would be a hotspot for debate. If you want to play Wide, they gave you the tools to do so (Religion, happiness focus), but they do NOT force everyone to play that way to feel competitive.

Honestly, if the devs rescind on their current overcolonization system, I will be disgusted and probably stop playing.

most 4x games have mechanics that try to limit players and ai in going wide (i think civ3 was the last game where you could/should expand endlessly). some have more success than others and some play/feel better than others. e.g. if the limit was tied to planets or overall population in your empire i would like the mechanic a lot more, because it would not matter if i colonize a system with 4 or 1 planet.

Overcolonizaton is a mid-late game issue, so you have time to prepare and plan before gaining a penalty -even as a rapidly expanding Unfallen.  

For system upgrades,  Transvine can get you +75 happiness in all systems.   N-P artifacts can provide -150% unhappiness, or if you really wait, Benthic Gems can provide -150% overcolonization penalty.   The easy combo is +75 happiness, -100% unhappiness and -50% overcolonization penalty.  

Add a few race options, hero adjustments (Set system to exstatic works wonders while you build happiness + power level the hero further), laws, buildings, terraforming, and happiness buildings.    Do all of these things and conquest victories in the largest galaxy size are possible. 

Yes, choosing the conquer route limits your system upgrade choices, forces you to spend the massive amount of resources that comes from a massive number of systems on approval research and buildings, and can force you to locate specific luxuries to further your victory.   But that's true of any victory choice.  Economic victories really prefer high dust generation.  Wonder victories desire large high industry systems.  Science victories require massive science investments.    

On the other hand, what I love most about Endless Space 2 is how much available luxuries change the way you play each faction.    Start with Bluecap and a shot at a science victory is available.  A start with Dustlicious trees, Jardonyx, or Transvine requires you to consider adjusting accordingly.   

What you have to exploit has a SERIOUS impact on how you play the game.    I found watching 4xalchemist adjust his UE strategy for the entire game based on what he could exploit by turn 10 illuminating.   The youtube link is here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xf6h4rZ88g

Good Luck out there. 

The one thing that will aggravate me the most about a new 4x is when I realize that playing wide and colonization-rushing are the most effective tactics to win. As soon as I realize this as truth, I lose the impetus to play. That said, I think ES's approach is absolutely perfect, and I applaud the devs for actually implementing the mechanic even knowing it would be a hotspot for debate. If you want to play Wide, they gave you the tools to do so (Religion, happiness focus), but they do NOT force everyone to play that way to feel competitive.

Honestly, if the devs rescind on their current overcolonization system, I will be disgusted and probably stop playing.

I think you should consider minor factions as population managment. It is a big thing in this game. The spaceport system needs an overhaul and with more information transparency, games should become a lot more strategic. Let's face it, balance is far off between mechanics, races, resources, techs and more for this to really matter in your standard game. Some victory condition being easier, you have to turn on and off features to make it shine. Still population management and minor factions are meant and designed to be used in this way. 

The luxury resource that reduces the penalty by 50% is called Benthic Gems. Curiosity level 4. A grand empire is lategame, but if you hit tier 4 in teh science tree a wonder or science victory is more liekly to occur (again balance and fine tune). 

A fusion of Crusader Kings and space 4X? All of my yes.

mezmorki wrote:

Good post and topic.

This issue strikes at the core of what a 4X game is and demonstrates a rather fundamental flaw with the entire premis of the genre.  Namely, that everything encourages you to expand forever, except then the gameplay would impode on micromangement hell.  Different games have tried different ways of dealing with this. Endless Space 2 took the least interesting approach possible.

Age of Wonders 3 neatly handled this via their vassal system.  Basically, you could turn over a city as a Vassal which pulled it out of your direct control.  However, it built up it's own garrison force, and once that was reached would periodically generate units or bonus resources for you.  Furthermore, the city continued to provide a fixed % of of it's output (even 100% of research) back to your empire.  AND.... to add more incentive, vassal populations got a happiness boost since they had more freedom/autonomy, which improved your racial happiness scores.  In short, they stacked the incentives to make it beneficial to use vassals liberally, and it works well.  

It would be nice to see something along these lines for ES2.

oh wow that would be a perfect solution. currently i do something like this by not assimilating the minor factions if I can. this is quite risky and someone else it free to grab them. my cioce depends on what the faction trait for the minor fation is.

when in a war state with someone I'd love to be able to capture thier systems and then just hand it over to a vassel so i don't overburden my empire and gather some taxes type thing.

this would be a great idea

I've always thought it would make more sense to move that one religious law that sets all your system to content into the Military category. I get that religion can make people happy but It just fits so well with the militaristic conquer everything you see playstyle. It seems weird having to change your whole government to religious everytime you play the Cravers who seem to make the best use of the law.