ENDLESS™ Space 2 is turn-based 4X space-strategy that launches players into the space colonization age of different civilizations within the ENDLESS™ Universe. Your Vision. Their Future.
Im not looking for you to shut up! I'm appreciating constructive discussion as that's what this thread is for, I just want it to be focused on the points being made and nothing personal like 'you're playing them wrong' or 'you are incompetent with unfallen'. I mentioned my hours played only to try to reassure folks that I am not a beginner or talking above my head, not to dissuade any actual discussion.
To respond to your point, The way I see Unfallen (from previous patches) is they are an Early game reliant race. Pacifists and Expansionists, Peace and Growth, designed to prefer diplomacy over military and thus emphasize expansion, allowing them to pursue their victory condition of choice in the mid/late game.
The counterplay to this is to hit them early and hit them hard, Dont give them the chance to pursue peace and dont give them the chance to expand. Cravers and Vodyani are big examples of direct counters to the Unfallen race objective. Other races need only apply some pressure to stop them going full pacifist.
By nerfing their early expansion capability, All they have going for them is Diplomacy. And, by also nerfing their incentive for diplomacy by changing the pacifist laws, They lose their identity as a race entirely.
My suggestion then is to nerf their mid/late game options instead! make it so that only REALLY succesful early games result in a good chance of victory for them, much like cravers who also rely on early expansionist playstyles.
EG. Make ships more expensive, make win conditions for them harder, dont destroy what the Lore of the race says they should be trying to do!
Every race needs counterplay, this is healthy for the state of the game. Countering unfallen was pretty clear cut, hit them before they can expand or negotiate and start gearing up their FIDSI machine.
To flat nerf their starting turns and pacifist/expansionist style turns them into a race with no clear-cut identity or direction for victory. Outclassed mid game by Sophons and Riftborn. If I want to play for late-game who better than Horatio?
Point is, In my opinion, the areas targetted by the nerfs have now quite possibly made the Unfallen the worst race at all stages of the game, outclassed at every point by other races and have no clear power spike and thus direction/identity like the other races do.
Fine I don't have that much game time so I guess I'll shut up but I think you're not seeing the Unfallen the right way. They do drop off after a while but then aren't they supposed to excel at a passive play? Them having a too strong early games just makes them super hard to take on during the mid game and if you nerf their mid game then they really lose a lot of their indentity.
Also, although I have played with it yet, remember that you do have forced peace early on that you can combine with reduce diplomatic costs to try and kep people off your back. Or hell do militarise early game and stop other players colonies yourself. Sure they're no as good at it as the cravers or the vodyani but they aren't particuliarly worst than the other races.
A competent unfallen player wouldn't be playing for military dominance by turn 50, if so why not just play Cravers? But I'll bite..
Vodyani can easily wipe Unfallen early if they set their minds to it. An early Ark rush with support still has very little counterplay for anyone but the cravers really. Something that happens alot in multiplayer.
at turn 50 UE are easily one of the better races at pumping out ships and should have no problem going toe-to-toe with Unfallen.
Horatio are a Late game power-house so yes at turn 50 it would be safe to assume that the Unfallen SHOULD be ahead.
Also vining special nodes only applies bonuses to your Home system, I don't see how this is in anyway overpowered or even how it would be possible to nerf this without implementing a default FIDSI reduction on all unfallen special nodes.
Finally, to try and reign it back some, I dont see how this is addressing any of the points I made other than 'Unfallen are broken as hell'. I'm advocating for the return of the unfallen EARLY game, by all means nerf their mid/late if they feel broken, but early growth was kinda their whole identity...
They were broken as hell before the nerf and now they are still fearsome. A competent Unfallen player can deploy 48-60 Cp worth of ships with T3 components by turn 55-60 on normal speed. Good luck dealing with them as HE, Vodyani or Horacio. None of above stand a chanse against Unfallen.
And after Unfallen vine enough asteroids/neigtron stars he became nearly unstopable. Vining special objects should be nerfed further.
AI Diplomatic pacts were easy enough before! They just costed you resources which was balanced as it was. My issue is with the incentive. Also as someone who enjoys ES2 multiplayer as well as singleplayer, in-game diplomacy is not really relevent beyond FIDSI bonuses as human opponents will decieve you.
As for growth, yes they are still very high and can grow a system faster than any race apart from the cravers early game, but the point was that they are supposed to be strong very early to support their pacifist agenda and playstyle and discourage races who are predominantely mid-game or late-game oriented from free bullying them early on.
Cravers can bully anybody early, unfallen included, but thats the point of playing cravers.
Removing the early game strengths of the unfallen puts their early game on par with (or IMO even less than) the other races without compensating their mid or late game with some kind of buff.
Yes I am perfectly aware that stacking vineships decreases vining duration, but vine ships are STILL extremely vulnerable (more than colonizers as summerized), They take longer to build and magnitudes moreso if you hope to defend them adequately AND are still reliant on starlanes and thus you cannot cherry pick systems like other races can.
I appreciate we do not want the unfallen to be overpowered, but the point of early game races like Cravers (Military) and Unfallen (Pacifist) is that they are strong early and drop off later in the game. I'm not saying don't nerf the unfallen, I'm saying the nerfs thay made ruin the Unfallen and the areas they were strong at and fun to play for. Why play a race that is now sub-par early and also sub-par late?
PS. for some insight I have 247 hours played, many of which has been with 8+ multiplayer.
If you find the ability to more easily make diplomatic pacts as the Unfallen useless I think you're playing them wrong. Also they are drowning in food so how are having any problem with population? And not to be a total dick but you do realise that you can use more than one vineship to divide by 2 for each the colonisation time? I not sure if that helps for the first colony but after than it should never take you more than 10 or 5 turns to colonise an other system.
The way I heard it Unfallen were one of the most powerfull factions already so a slightly slower start shouldn't be a problem for them.
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