Aitarus, you are talking about some sort of a demonic possession. I love it! :D  I love a good horror in a sci-fi. It really fits the vibe the Lost are giving. Although I want it to fit(and it can still fit) I think there is something else going on here.

Aitarus wrote:

Not necessarily but I doubt they'd make the choice to cast the same VA for two key characters by accident. I think there's some basis for them to be the same entity, and I find it intriguing that we see the Heretic being tended to by the Sophons at the end of their vision trailer:

 I doubt that guy is the Heretic. The cloth looks different and the endless text on Sophon ipad says " ARK SHIP localization obtained" suggesting that this guy is just someone they are trying to get coordinates from. Now, I've been having fun on the side with the Endless alphabet and looked at this video as well but I thought it's probably random stuff and didn't think too much over it. But now I look at it again I am thinking this can't be just random stuff.

Now the first 2 red boxes say "Objective Protect Academy Coordinates" "Target Identification + list of Vodyani ship classes". Nothing too special. But in the green circle it says " T. O. R. location? and some planets" In Vodyani counterpart it just says target Sophon leader there so if the target was Heretic it would say there. Why is there dots between TOR and why is this written under that soon to be captured guy's face. I searched for someone that looks like the captured guy and found this Hero who has a very intriguing bio. The cloth matches perfectly. His name is Varb St Zouieina. Bio talks about a " living spirit of Zouieina" and Varb's internal turmoil about Great Penance caused by this "Virtual" living inside him. Not Endless, just Virtual...

Something really odd is going on here.

Edit: 

Tried to translate those 4 planet names as well:

Pyshman - Tchinomy

Oshkla   -  Buntud

I hope they are correct, it's easier to make out the english words. Any of them sound familiar? besides Tchinomy of course. And why should T.O.R. be at Tchinomy unless this is not the TOR we know of. I dunno maybe it's still nothing but Sophons seem to have a side mission going on interrogating this prisoner or the entity within.

hera35 wrote:

Isyander likely wouldn't be able to access the Tabernacle until his own ascension to Cloth, in which case he couldn't have orchestrated the events of DotE and EL. I think in Vodyani questline it's mentioned that Isyander goes mad and causes the rebellion only after finding the Tabernacle as well.

[...]

But I've also actually thought about the possibility that Isyander's suit might act as a host to some outside entity, likely the narrator Lost, since there's also precedence in regular Vodyani heroes who all act as hosts for Virtual Endless inside their suits and as such it wouldn't be so far-fetched for Isyander to host something inside his suit as well.

I actually hadn't realised that as I never noticed the bios at the bottom of the page until recently. That would be in line with my theory then - Isyander can exist independently of what I'll refer to as the Voice, and may yet have come into contact with it on finding the Tabernacle, as the other heroes did when acquiring their Virtual Endless spirits. 

Containing a god rather than just an immortal like the others should be more than enough to drive you to madness, then combined with the revelations of the Tabernacle itself and the will of the Voice. This would also correspond with what exactly the energy emanation from the Academy is if it's channeling the Lodestones and then releasing the Voice to join the other eight.

EDIT:

Checked the armors just in case. Isyander's Cloth looks pretty different to the Vodyani guy being examined by Sophons.

I made sure to check as well, but somehow I doubt that he had donned so overtly subversive garb until post-Tabernacle, so it's feasible that he could have had a different suit. It was its being lighter that put me onto the concept, but as Trainchaser noted it does actually match Varb - my current avatar - exactly.

Another thing regarding this attire, actually, is that he has more energy tendrils surrounding him than most the other Vodyani, like a lot more.

Those translations are intriguing, not yet sure what to make of that. It's true that these videos are packaged as 'visions' and show two unique and likely mutually exclusive version of events, so it may not have to make full sense.

The bios are very interesting, especially this excerpt from Daro St Seiotia:

Still driven to serve a god, and yet sharing her Cloth with its presence, Daro now alternates between burning with faith and aggression and fearing what ultimate sacrifice her symbiotic Saint may require of her. What is the recompense for sacrifice? What is the ultimate act of fidelity?

And in Kiev St Taiage:

For a moment Klev saw the blinding light at the start of time, the bleak void at the end, and a glimpse of the unthinkable vastness of everything that might happen in between. She saw also, and stood upon, the brink of her own insanity as her mind attempted to breach and process that scope.

These both are in line with the sort of dual-will approach I was talking about, and would allow for Isyander to remain in tact while also serving as a vessel.

I too love when sci-fi gets a bit dark. We are talking about 'Lost' gods, genocide and evolution accelerated via addictive primordial energy (Dust), so.

Addendum: why are Isyara and Isyander both named St Shaiad? That seems like a break from the convention established by the hero bios where it refers to the Virtual spirit they were touched by. And yet theirs are the same, nor is there any mention in Isyara's narration from the quest about cohabiting with a Virtual.

Slowhands wrote:

Hera35 did a good timeline summary on the previous page (better than mine, is it okay if I borrow it?). 

Thanks. I've been discussing the overarching lore elsewhere as well and mulling over it for a while so good to know I haven't been off the mark this entire time. Also in regard to using it elsewhere go ahead, I'm more than glad if it's of use to you.

I also thought at first that the A New Beginning and Vision trailers' narrator was Isyander due to sounding quite similar, but I don't think it would work. 

There's a few lines outing the narrator as a Lost.

A New Beginning:
What if I could begin again? I had reached perfect harmony, before they (the Endless) came and destroyed everything.

Vision trailers:

In following its streams, it will answer my needs. Its search for power, and its thrist for Dust will nourish our (the Lost's) return.

For the former line the narrator would've had to experience some kind of destruction by the hands of outside force, likely Endless, and for the latter it clearly refers to the Lost and not Vodyani's return, and I don't think Isyander ever refers himself as godlike, on the contrary he reveres the Lost and is willing to sacrifice himself for their return. 

Timeline wise as well it seems the Vodyani found the Virtual relics after the Grey Owl's explosion (narrator refers to the plan being in place before Vodyani are shown ascending) and Isyander likely wouldn't be able to access the Tabernacle until his own ascension to Cloth, in which case he couldn't have orchestrated the events of DotE and EL. I think in Vodyani questline it's mentioned that Isyander goes mad and causes the rebellion only after finding the Tabernacle as well.

The narrator gives the Vodyani the same narration as the Sophons, making it likely the narrator views both races as unwitting pawns. While the the Vodyani guy's armor in Sophons' Vision is also a bit light colored I think it's just supposed to be some random guy's body / alive captive being researched, like the Vodyani's Vision has Sophons plugged into some machines. But I've also actually thought about the possibility that Isyander's suit might act as a host to some outside entity, likely the narrator Lost, since there's also precedence in regular Vodyani heroes who all act as hosts for Virtual Endless inside their suits and as such it wouldn't be so far-fetched for Isyander to host something inside his suit as well.

EDIT:

Checked the armors just in case. Isyander's Cloth looks pretty different to the Vodyani guy being examined by Sophons.

Frogsquadron wrote:

I consider myself a bit of a buff on Endless lore, and I'm just floored at the level of detail doing on here.

I'm just going to keep on smiling enigmatically and pretend I'm keeping secrets. ;)

And I will pretend I am discovering secret clues about the metaplot instead of hidden french jokes :)

Aitarus wrote:

Slowhands wrote:

Somehow you guys are managing to condense six years of lore development into a two-page forum discussion. Very impressive!

Hera35 did a good timeline summary on the previous page (better than mine, is it okay if I borrow it?). Just to confirm, that is a single explosion reverberating throughout the galaxy and across dimensions.

And btw, T.O.R. is not a planet ...

!

Tabernacle of Remorse?

That must be it. It makes sense. So much for the hidden Varb metaplot :D at least we now have a better idea about the location of the tabernacle. Also good catch with Isyander that looks like some quick fix.

Sorry, I'm late to the party and rediscovering some of this stuff but back to the Dust Crystal, I noticed something in the Endless legend artbook. There is a small blue crystal in the middle of it. It is also illustrated in the Vodyani intro. And the image has more than one test tube which suggests there are more than one of these things. Could it be that Endless used Dust Crystals made from Harmony to farm dust from Lost until they both died so the Endless can power their ships? :D  In Dust to Dust quest, there is a dust-rich ancient graveyard planet with crystal bedrock and it mentions piezoelectric relation between crystal and dust. They seem to attract dust and die in the process. I bet Isyander uses one as well in his pyramid.

hera35 wrote:

But I've also actually thought about the possibility that Isyander's suit might act as a host to some outside entity, likely the narrator Lost, since there's also precedence in regular Vodyani heroes who all act as hosts for Virtual Endless inside their suits and as such it wouldn't be so far-fetched for Isyander to host something inside his suit as well.

Judging from the Vodyani comic, Isyander is less of a host in the sense that the Lost being is sharing his body with him, and more likely the Lost being is able to communicate with/through him at any time/place it pleases. This probably has to do with the fact that the Lost possess godlike powers, and that they defy most common constraints of "bodies". In a way, some Lost could act in the same way as the Virtual Endless (or think Guardians of the Galaxy MCU Ego planet) and thus can communicate without the worry of being near someone or even sharing a host body. 

This is b/c Isyander was communicating with the Lost through the cell room vents, he could hear it (not in his head but with his "ears" (?)) and then once Brunen and Eli break him out (probably unbeknownst to the assistance of the Lost) the Voice suddenly travels to his head. 

On a different note, when Isyander leads the rebellion against the Vodyani, Isyara states the Isyander "summoned ancient demons" probably her way of stating he summoned the Lost, but that doesn't make much sense according to the current lore, since Isyander has contact with the Lost for the first time, in prison, after his rebellion is defeated. So unless the Devs made a slight alteration to the lore, there's a gap between who Isyander summoned and when he first had contact with the Lost being. 

So any ideas on who the demons were, or was it a dev mistake and the beings were actually the Lost. 

Edit: The Demons do have the exact same look as the Narrator Lost (at least in the face) however, how would Isyander summon them without even having contact yet, and the Main Quest (over the Lode systems) wouldn't have occurred since he had yet to found the Academy so how would the Lost even have returned ???? 

I saw the Vodyani comic as confirmation more than anything that there is a symbiotic relationship between the narrator/voice Lost; what convinces me that they are co-habiting in Isyander's suit is that at the end of the metaplot you see him channeling the Lodestones at the Academy. There's also the fact that Isyander and the Lost seem to share near identical voice work if you compare these cinematics to the pre-release trailers. I cannot think of any more fitting place for the narrator to reside than at the Academy with his acolyte.

Regarding the 'summoning of ancient demons', I don't think they are anything other than the Lost. Isyara may be talking in retrospect since the timing of the cinematic is presumably when we start the game, long after the rebellion. She may even be referring to ancient demons in abstract rather than as actual entities - despite the visualisation in the intro - in terms of the 'inner demons' of the Virtuals who wrote the Tabernacle, which as we know clearly influenced Isyander and constituted a refutation of the faith.

Yes, I love that load scene. They were no doubt harvesting the Sophons.

That's a nice catch regarding the similarity between the Pulsos background and that second crystal photo, I wonder if they'll come to the fore in the future. Given what we know about the Harmony's adversity to Dust it must have taken something quite potent to infect them.

Trainchaser wrote:

That's another confusing thing. They are both Hissho Cruiser but then what is the planet in the video? Auriga? Does someone repair the Gray Owl and then it blows up in the orbit? Because in the story, the Gray Owl doesn't blow up in the orbit while escaping from Sykagoja instead, the story ends when they are en route to Auriga and the storyteller finds the ship's wreck on Auriga. How can the ship end up mostly intact on Auriga if it blows up in a massive dust supernova above the Sykagoja?

The chronological order is:

1. Last Flight of the Grey Owl

Hissho ship Grey Owl escapes Sykagoja and flies to Auriga. Since there's no next log entry it can be assumed it was shot down by Auriga orbital defense system, the Endless or something else happened. Grey Owl crashes on Auriga.

2. Dungeon of the Endless

Intro video: 

https://youtu.be/sGJuViaIdfA

Mezari prison ship is shot down by Auriga defense system. Survivors onboard escape pods crash deep into the planet's underground labs and fight their way out. Unknown entity hacks the defense systems, shuts all doors and the energy source of the labs. On their way the heroes have to escort a Dust Crystal that's vital for their survival due to powering up the labs' rooms and elevators. The Mezari survivors and their descendants gradually forget their starfaring origins and turn into Vaulters of Endless Legend.

3. Endless Legend

Vaulters find both the crashed Grey Owl and rediscover the Dust Crystal, that has been accumulating massive amounts of Dust for unknown reason. They use it to power Grey Owl and escape freezing Auriga. This is not their faction quest ship (Argosy that they never managed to fix), but the shared Quest victory that's the canon ending to the game.

4. Endless Space 2 announcement trailer

There's two versions of this, both normal and amplified reality version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hMrp1S6NyY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4hrKOddHc

The latter trailer has text written in Endless characters: the planet is "Auriga", and the core is simply "Dust Crystal". The Dust Crystal is shown to explode. Vaulters' fate is unknown. The same explosion is shown in Cravers intro and Riftborn intro, ripping a rift into their reality. There's also a Riftborn hero whose description confirms this, as does the path in their faction quest if you recruit the Virus hero and choose the trade route objective.

https://wiki.endless-space.com/academy/%E2%88%82#identity

5. Endless Space 2 Vision trailers

https://youtu.be/bQxP_RXcLJo

https://youtu.be/XEj1Gq4e_WU

An unknown narrator talks about his "plan" of spreading Dust all over the universe, speeding up natural evolution and creating the major factions dependent on Dust, likely for the purpose of reviving the Lost ("gods" predating the Endless themselves). The Dust Crystal and Grey Owl exploding was very likely his doing.

6. Endless Space 2 proper

Isyander the Heretic (the Vodyani leader's brother) discovers the Tabernacle of Lies / Tabernacle of Remorse (created by Virtual Endless hero Tiaych Zhilleaq) that details the Endless genociding the Lost. Isyander goes mad from the revelation, causes a rebellion and later founds the Academy. Isyander's plan culminates in the competitive Academy endgame quest where he plans to use the Lodestone systems to "return the Dust to the Lost" and revive them. This might mean large-scale genocide if the Pathfinder trailer is to be trusted, but strangely it isn't mentioned in the game proper.

https://youtu.be/QBo-4f3b90o

For information on the Lost themselves, Vodyani (heretic path) and Unfallen faction quests describe them as massive beings of pure light and Dust.

As for the identity of the mystery person responsible for Grey Owl's destruction, it's probably hinted in the above Dungeon of the Endless trailer. 1:18 shows four people onboard the escape pod, but when the video gets to 1:39 it shows only three people. The missing person is likely inside the Dust Crystal itself. Previously I thought it was probably a Virtual Endless, but due to ES2 revelations it's more likely a Lost survivor, assuming the mysterious narrator in Vision trailers is the same person (line: ...and its thirst for Dust, will nourish our return).

EDIT:

Since I vomited so much text might as well vomit the source screenshots as well (right click and "View Image")

Riftborn faction quest and talking about the Grey Owl

Virtual Endless hero description and Tabernacle of Remorse

Unfallen leader talking about the Lost

Vodyani leader talking about the Lost

What's that big dust supernova about? What exactly is exploding there? Is it supposed to be something like that scene from Prometheus movie where the big babby man sacrifices himself to procreate life? And what exactly is dust? is it some sort of benign nanotechnology gray yellow goo? Or maybe it's even beyond nano maybe it is femtotechnology so many questions

Trainchaser wrote:

By the way, is it known in the canon lore that the crystal was on Gray Owl from the beginning or does it come from Prisoner ship in the escape pod as a prisoner? :) or was it already on Auriga?

 Also is there a significance to number 9 that I should know about? I just noticed that there are 9 bright stars in a circle when eyes of the Lost show up in the vision trailer and there are 9 protrusions coming out of Academy. 

The Dust Crystal has to be searched for in Endless Legend's quest victory, so Grey Owl and it are in separate places. In-game terms you first find the Grey Owl, and afterwards you have to search ruins until finding a suitable power source. The crystal's description is

Incredibly dense and heavy, the recharged Crystal hums with a frightening sense of power. A relic of an unknown past, it is now the key to your success.

but yeah I don't remember it's *strictly* mentioned that it came from Prison Ship Success. The reason it's assumed to be the same crystal is due to website countdown during ES2 pre-announcement ARG having the sprite of the same Dust Crystal, though sadly I don't have a screenshot. The crystal inside Grey Owl in the amplified reality trailer also has the same shape as the sprite in DotE.

As for the bright stars in Vision trailers I don't really know anything about them, but my guess is that they're supposed to represent the Lodestone systems you have to control in the final Academy quest line in order to perform the ritual to revive the Lost.

Huh, I hadn't watched the vision trailers nor the new beginning one - if only I'd realised I was missing out on critical lore.

Thanks to hera35 for compiling a chronology - ES2 is my first game but I am already well invested into the Endless universe, so that's very useful.

Is it just me who finds that the voice in the earlier trailers sounds a lot like Isyander, the Heretic? I just assumed it was before considering the implications. Comparing it against the outros for rejuvenate/defend now which are from his perspective, just really cannot quite tell. They are so similar.

hera35 wrote:

Incredibly dense and heavy, the recharged Crystal hums with a frightening sense of power. A relic of an unknown past, it is now the key to your success

hmm humming crystal... That reminds me of the singing Core from the Harmony intro. I wonder how Harmony fits in all this. Also, I like the idea of Crystal coming from prisoner ship. The more different places it has been the more people it binds to the story. Maybe UE gets involved in the story this way as well.

Aitarus wrote:

Is it just me who finds that the voice in the earlier trailers sounds a lot like Isyander, the Heretic? 

Yeah, I think they are the same voice actor but it doesn't mean the characters have to be the same, right?

Pluvinage wrote:

Regarding Horatio and his part on Dungeon of The Endless... 

The comic books shows that he wasn´t part of The Success ship or one of the escape pods. He was already doing his research in Auriga, looking for Endless technology but without good results.

He sees the accident and joins the crew that is the same crew from the image below

I mean it's gotta be him. In the icon, it's the same signature Trump pose from the Horatio prologue with the lights and silhouette.

That´s because it would be hard to start a new society with just Sara and Gork as sole survivors, like Adam and Eve, and they barely like each other.

There is a DNA problem between them :)

 Also, Opbot wasn´t tagging along with them, and he is needed for the Endless Legend lore. So all the crew and prisoners heroes that can be hired after passing through the first level of the game came from other escape pods. But only Sara´s team stayed with the crystal.

Just before that pod screen, it shows Opbot dead. I don't know what happens to Opbot in those dungeons but it doesn't sound good from what I read in the EL quest. I can only imagine the possible horrors he had been through from my own DotE playthrough experience with him.

Trainchaser wrote:

Aitarus wrote:

Is it just me who finds that the voice in the earlier trailers sounds a lot like Isyander, the Heretic? 

Yeah, I think they are the same voice actor but it doesn't mean the characters have to be the same, right?

Not necessarily but I doubt they'd make the choice to cast the same VA for two key characters by accident. I think there's some basis for them to be the same entity, and I find it intriguing that we see the Heretic being tended to by the Sophons at the end of their vision trailer:

This is just as the voice over says "those who stand against us will be reminded who their gods are."

Coincidence?

There are a few things that could be happening here; they've recovered 'Isyander' and are treating him of his Essence reliance - Isyara, during her crisis of faith, mentions that somehow the Heretic has sustained himself without it for years, so it must be possible. 

Or they could be Clothing - to coin a term - the voice/crystal entity in Vodyani suit tech. I think it's credible that it would have sought an ambulatory avatar to better enact its will, and of the Dust-addicted accelerated races the Vodyani happen to have the ideal tech to house a consciousness in humanoid form. It wouldn't then take too much to assume an existing identity or to create a new one by deceiving what are religious zealots; if it is one of the Lost as we assume, it wouldn't be above them.

As for the dual persona, there's precedent in a lot of sci-fi and fantasy for inhabiting spirits or merger of souls to retain parts of the host identity as well as the inhabitant.

Thoughts?