Suis3i wrote:

I can't find the 'Last flight of the Grey Owl' but does it explicitly state that the Raians mentioned were Humans/Mezari or Humanoids. That difference can mean a lot. 

If they're Humanoids then they aren't Mezari but another species, after all, you don't use the term humanoid to describe humans (the DEV's seem overly careful about their wording in everything lol). If they're Humans then it means that the Mezari and the Endless did coexist. 

And thanks for the link CountBlue, I had actually forgotten about that whoops

Mezari and Imperials are described as humanoids, as they aren't technically human. It's in the text for Imperial population. Says something like 'These humanoids prefer economic and military development' or something like that. 

TeddyTi wrote:

Doesn't the Grey Owl exploded exactly whene the Vaulters left Auriga? The dust explosion we see in some ES2 video (especially the Vaulter's one) it's him no?

Yeah the Lost Narrator detonates the Grey Owl as it left Aurigas atmosphere. It’s not confirmed which faction(s) was aboard the Grey Owl, however, the Vaulters had known about its liftoff. The Vaulters left aboard the Argosy.

Crixler wrote:

The ES2 trailers show the Grey Owl blowing up after it leaves Auriga in the EL victory quest. The Last Flight of the Grey Owl (where the Hissho and Raian passenger infomation came from) is the story of how the Grey Owl came to Auriga in the first place, and takes place during the war between the Concretes and Virtuals. Same ship, two different trips. Hikensha is most likely a descendent of those passengers, as well as Mizi, the DotE merchants, etc. Of course, that's not confirmed, but it does seem like the most likely explanation. Why else would the Last Flight of the Grey Owl mention the Raian passengers?

As a sidenote, the presence of those Raian passengers has some huge implications for the age of the Mezari Empire. Raia was not the Mezari homeworld, it was an empty planet when they first colonized it. So the Endless and the Mezari Empire were contempraries.

I don't think the Mezari and the Endless were contemporaries. The Endless had been gone a long time before the rise and fall of the Mezari empire. DoTE is set during the Mezari era, and what was left on Auriga is remnants and ruins from the dust wars - the same dust wars that effectively wiped out Endless civilisation.

The passengers on The Success were not Raian. The UE have only just achieved FTL space flight at the start of ES2, which is more than a thousand years after Endless Legend, never mind DoTE. I always imagined that the Raians and the Mezari in EL are essentially refugee colonists after the overexploitation of Mezan. That would explain why the Mezari are described as 'accustomed to life in space' as they effectively went through a similar experience to the Vodyani. 

WeLoveYou wrote:

I don't think the Mezari and the Endless were contemporaries. The Endless had been gone a long time before the rise and fall of the Mezari empire. DoTE is set during the Mezari era, and what was left on Auriga is remnants and ruins from the dust wars - the same dust wars that effectively wiped out Endless civilisation.

The passengers on The Success were not Raian. The UE have only just achieved FTL space flight at the start of ES2, which is more than a thousand years after Endless Legend, never mind DoTE. I always imagined that the Raians and the Mezari in EL are essentially refugee colonists after the overexploitation of Mezan. That would explain why the Mezari are described as 'accustomed to life in space' as they effectively went through a similar experience to the Vodyani. 

The passengers on the success weren't but in the last flight of the grey owl it's explicitly stated that the passengers on the grey owl were Raian humanoids.

And since that story happens with the Endless, then "Torians", still alive the Mezari must have existed simultaneous with them at least for a short period.

And yes while Raians do seem to have gone without FTL technology for some time now, they definitely had it at least once in their history considering they are Mezari colonists after all.

That messes with my timeline understanding then. Maybe Jeff can help us out with that. 

Doesn't the Grey Owl exploded exactly whene the Vaulters left Auriga? The dust explosion we see in some ES2 video (especially the Vaulter's one) it's him no?

Suis3i wrote:

I can't find the 'Last flight of the Grey Owl' but does it explicitly state that the Raians mentioned were Humans/Mezari or Humanoids. That difference can mean a lot. 

If they're Humanoids then they aren't Mezari but another species, after all, you don't use the term humanoid to describe humans (the DEV's seem overly careful about their wording in everything lol). If they're Humans then it means that the Mezari and the Endless did coexist. 

And thanks for the link CountBlue, I had actually forgotten about that whoops

You should be able to find the last flight of the gray owl in the ES2 folder in steam I think. Should also be somewhere on this site if I remember correctly but I don't have a link lying around. And yeah it only talks about humanoids, so technically it could be anything. Well anything but Endless since the distinction is made.

But that part is from the perspective of a hissho so he might not know of the proper term for "humans" or "Mezari". (Which would be quite funny since humans - humanoids)

So yeah it's vague but it'd be weird to mention Raia if it were some random humanoids.

CountBlue wrote:

Suis3i wrote:

I can't find the 'Last flight of the Grey Owl' but does it explicitly state that the Raians mentioned were Humans/Mezari or Humanoids. That difference can mean a lot. 

If they're Humanoids then they aren't Mezari but another species, after all, you don't use the term humanoid to describe humans (the DEV's seem overly careful about their wording in everything lol). If they're Humans then it means that the Mezari and the Endless did coexist. 

And thanks for the link CountBlue, I had actually forgotten about that whoops

You should be able to find the last flight of the gray owl in the ES2 folder in steam I think. Should also be somewhere on this site if I remember correctly but I don't have a link lying around. And yeah it only talks about humanoids, so technically it could be anything. Well anything but Endless since the distinction is made.

But that part is from the perspective of a hissho so he might not know of the proper term for "humans" or "Mezari". (Which would be quite funny since humans - humanoids)

So yeah it's vague but it'd be weird to mention Raia if it were some random humanoids.

Yeah true, but since they didn't confirm them as Mezari and only Raians (which could be another species that inhabited Raia in the time of the Endless) it's a bit of open book (humans that are humanoid, go figure) 

@WeLoveYou I stand corrected lol 

Just gonna toss in my two cents on the 'non-Mezari humans in EL descending from the Raians on Grey Owl' idea: The story only ever mentions that one Raian was aboard the ship (along with a Haroshem scientist, who appearantly have three eyes under their helmets (1)), as the other Raian is killed in their escape from Sykagoja (2). Only seven make it to the ship (those being two Blood Sisters, two Brood Mothers, the final Crafter, the Raian, and the Haroshem, not including the robot), where they joined a group of seven others (3) and departed for a total of fourteen aboard. It is also my belief that the Crafter becomes the new Captain-Pilot (4), while Blood Sister Akama Daitan remains Commander.

Now getting back to the matter at hand, I don't think that Raians evolved to reproduce via parthenogenisis, so I doubt that the other humans on Auriga are their descendants. Although, in writing this, I realize that all this is taking place during the Dust Wars, and that maybe Auriga has yet to be attacked by the Virtuals. This could mean that Endless technology was used to clone said sole Raian and provide a female counterpart, ala ES1 Horatio, and their population spread from there.

Also, the mere fact that they are called Raians indicates that Raia has been settled long enough for its populace to identify themselves as separate from the Mezari. A similar thing happened IRL in pre-Independance America: as time went on, the people started to see themselves more as distinct Americans than British colonists. For the Raians to even be present on Sykagoja pre-Dust Wars means atleast some contact with the Endless, if not full-blown diplomatic relations. The Raians in the story aren't test subjects, but rather laborers (5), so the Endless were willing to let them develop on their own.

(1) "With them were four Hissho Crafter scientists, two Raian humanoids, a pale green multi-armed robot, and a squat, three-eyed scientist." ... "The Raian and the Haroshem were lagging and the wounded Hissho slowed his team of Crafters."

(2) "Twice we had to stop to fight beasts; a roving pack of kwerna that killed one of the humanoids and gravely wounded ..."

(3) "I saw to the survivors and the seven stowaways before I tended my own wounds ..."

(4) "“Shipmind, transfer all keys, codes, and passwords to remaining Hissho Crafter. Generate a printed archive for the eyrie library and see that it is delivered..."

(5) "The Raian grabbed my arm.
“Look, I just deliver lab equipment. I don’t know--”
I shoved him hard and pointed to the far side of the roof."

The students have not yet passed the master, but they're pretty freaking close in the rear view mirror...

To be honest, the question of labels like "Raian" and "Torian" in the story made me a bit nervous, because that seems to put a fixed stake in the ground for the universe timeline. I really don't like doing that: 

1. It limits our flexibility in the future
2. It increases the chance of errors/confusion
3. It makes a highly random/procedurally generated universe more structured and therefore more limited

"Torians" are clearly the Concrete Endless--I'm okay for that :)  But when I put "Raian" in there, I was actually wondering if they were from the planet Raia, or if they are Mezari or even pre-Mezari ancestors, and the planet is named after them rather than vice-versa... 

-Slow

I like the idea of Raia being named after the Raians, kinda keeps it open amd mysterious as to who the Raians are, while also lowkey answering the question of whether or not Raia was settled by the Mezari during the Dust Wars (which seems to interrupt a large portion of the Mezari/Endless timeline and stories) 

Suis3i wrote:

I like the idea of Raia being named after the Raians, kinda keeps it open amd mysterious as to who the Raians are, while also lowkey answering the question of whether or not Raia was settled by the Mezari during the Dust Wars (which seems to interrupt a large portion of the Mezari/Endless timeline and stories) 

I like this interpretation. Let "Raia" mean something in the forgotten language of a lost people and expand (or not) from there. It's certainly a much better name than the awfully generic "Imperials" you see in every other science-fiction universe nowadays.

I've generally assumed the Sisters of Mercy, Roving Clans, and Ardent Mages are descended from the Raians that were onboard the Grey Owl when it left Sykagoja and crashed on Auriga (the Nidya also being descendents of the Hissho on that ship).

Slowhands wrote:

Suis3i wrote:

...Spock could hit us out of nowhere with the Endless are humans Rofl. But it makes more sense for them to go the whole 'Forerunner' route and make them a separate but similar species that has a relationship with the Mezari. 

No, the Endless were not humans :)

There were no humans on Auriga before the crashes/explorers, unless they existed as part of the lab experiments of the Concrete Endless. The Sisters are just a branch of the Mezari, like Crusader orders (Hospitallers, Templars, etc.) were branches of humanity.

-Slow

Okay awesome, I'd like to think that they were experiments since Mizi was there as a 'Native' before any known/canonic Mezari landings on Auriga 

Maybe the player is the Endless;) Giving that we can use amplified reality in-game

IceGremlin wrote:

Ardent Mages are an offshoot religious minority of the Roving Clans in the past. It's mentioned in their quest at one point, I believe when you have to hire a Roving Clans hero.

Is Mizi Kurtiz confirmed separate from the ship crew? I've not met her cause I'm bad at DotE. If not, I expect she's actually part of some existing social group among Mezari, like a watchdog or Red Cross sort of figure, charged with watching the prisoners and ensuring their fair treatment, but also with looming over the crew not to overstep their bounds. An agent from a third party organization assigned to clean up the Success's act.

We have to remember Mezari culture doesn't necessarily have to be monolithic. Horatio, UE, and Vaulters are visually distinct. Given a few hundred years, the followers of a random dedicated person from a distinct sub-culture could easily look like another culture entirely.

All aside from the megademon thing of course.

She's listed as a 'Native' in DoTE, so yeah separate from the Success crew/passengers. 

Lol I know that's why I put it makes more sense that they're a different but similar (in appearance) species 

Suis3i wrote:

Pluvinarch wrote:

Some Mezari could have arrived on Auriga long before the Mezari on the Success ship. These first Mezari are probably from another ship accident and they didn't manage to contact their Mezari homeland. Or they could have been abducted eons ago by the Endless who wanted to experiment on them. These Mezari totally forgot their spacefaring origins (unlike the Vaulters).

Another possible theory is that the human looking creatures you find at Auriga are Endless. That's because the Broken Lords are supposed to have Endless ancestors and they looked human before their transformation. From the Broken Lords faction new factions diverged, such as the Ardent Mages, Roving Clans and possibly the Sisters of Mercy and the Dorgeshi.

The Broken Lords are Concrete Descendants of those who survived the Virtual Attack on Auriga. 

This is from the Endless Legend Artbook: 

This basically puts them in the same boat as the Amoeba (who are also now Concrete Descendants). 

I'm pretty sure the Roving Clans are actually descendants of the Merchants who you find in DoTE, in effect being survivors of the Success's crash landing. 

And the Ardent Mages, if I'm not mistaken, aren't related to the Broken Lords in any way (other than Dust) but had some other origins, that I can't really remember right now. 

The Ended/Haunts are also Endless "survivors" who appear to have been virtualized into Dust during the Virtual Attack on Auriga. It's why they frequent the Endless ruins so much. 

The Endless on the other hand, look human in physical appearance but I don't think they were human looking in every way, just look at the Virtual and Concrete Survivors in ES1/DoTE/El/ES2 (you may say they're wearing masks but the Virtuals are representations of an Endless basically naked) and the statues of the Endless. They lack a mouth as well as some other prominent facial features. Also, the Haunts mask, which seems to imitate a skull, lacks a mouth. 

Though you never know, Spock could hit us out of nowhere with the Endless are humans Rofl. But it makes more sense for them to go the whole 'Forerunner' route and make them a separate but similar species that has a relationship with the Mezari. 

There is no way that the Endless were humans, mainly because they come from Tor, which is a Tundra planet and the fact that the Endless Empire was comprised of many species, including the original 3 from their Homeworld.

IceGremlin wrote:

All aside from the megademon thing of course.

The Kazanji??

nuyu wrote:

Are they all female races only? So they reproduce through parthenogenesis same like Asari in ME

I think the Sisters of Mercy reproduce through normal human means, however, the faction is located in walled/fortified towns that are ruled by the Sisters of Mercy, who act similar to a military/governmental/religious organization. 

Think of them like the Witches of Dathomir from Star Wars 

They probably recruit through having kids or having members join their group, that undergo training and such. 

Are they all female races only? So they reproduce through parthenogenesis same like Asari in ME

Some Mezari could have arrived on Auriga long before the Mezari on the Success ship. These first Mezari are probably from another ship accident and they didn't manage to contact their Mezari homeland. Or they could have been abducted eons ago by the Endless who wanted to experiment on them. These Mezari totally forgot their spacefaring origins (unlike the Vaulters).

Another possible theory is that the human looking creatures you find at Auriga are Endless. That's because the Broken Lords are supposed to have Endless ancestors and they looked human before their transformation. From the Broken Lords faction new factions diverged, such as the Ardent Mages, Roving Clans and possibly the Sisters of Mercy and the Dorgeshi.