Bear with me, it's still fresh and some things, if not all, will be explained when the game actually will be released, but...

BUT until that time my curious mind wants some answers that were left unanswered after the stream.

As it was promised on the stream, I hereby summon Slowhands to answer:

NAKALIM and MEZARI: are they related?

I must say I'm disappointed somehow, that there's yet another, this time, even more ancient race - that are basically *humans*. 

They have earlobes, noses, finger and toenails, (even their queen has slight bunions XD), 2 eyes, 2 legs, 2 arms, 5 fingers each. They even have human skin colors - warm bronze and albino. They only have exotic eye colors IIRC. And are bald. 

Those things cannot be easily explained by convergent evolution of bipedal forms - they can, and they will, even if combined, make a different race - as all those mixes create different, yet similar results. Cases in point: Galvran, Lumeris, Endless and more.

Nakalim are pretty much humans.

Right now we have Mezari that splintered into Raians(Pilgrim subrace) and Aurigans(numerous subraces), with probably some other Mezaris out there. That's a lot of good ol' space humans, on top of a bunch of rubberhead alien humanoid bipeds with only a relative few of really unique ones.

Damage control theory 1- 

Nakalim are pre-Mezan pre-Mezari - and thus ancient and "human". That would open new possibilities - Mezan would be a colony, that spawned further colonies - what was then PRE-Nekalim. Earth? hehe.

UPDATE: WEIRD EARTH SPOTTED AS THEIR HOMEWORLD. REALLY SILLY. ( https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/65-general/threads/34565-sobra?page=1#post-287149 )

Damage control theory 2 

Nakalim were thouroghly subsumed by a client-race (Mezari) and went extinct. [Mandalorian-route]

Either of those still, sadly for me, leaves us with more humans and less aliens. 

Edit: Nakalim heraldry found its match with Academy's shape and hero screen icon (itself reflecting Academy) shape. Since there are humanoid statues  resent that would be in the shape of its (Academy) makers (that I took for Endless, as they are not visible clearly) I've concluded that Nakalim MIGHT be creators of the Academy. UPDATE: CONFIRMED FALSE

UPDATE: Isyander himself explicitedly tells us("whispers" lol), that the ENDLESS CREATED ACADEMY to atone for their crime of killing the LOST, at least some of them - wihich was reinforced by Virtual Endless hero already (Stellar Prisoner Quest?) 

Why then NAKALIM sport ACADEMY heraldry, if they have learned of it from Isyander? This heraldry is everywhere, but their special secret super sigil, which is just a letter of their alphabet is nowhere to be foundIn other places it's saud that Nakalim colonized post-Endless systems, so they shouldve known  of Academy, if they were so-widespread, as they claim. It's nonsense and shoddy work.

UPDATE 2: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/65-endless-space-2/threads/34502-nakalim-another-mezari-offshot-coincident?page=2#post-287660 

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

For those who have not heard yet, the Sobra texture and art are going to be replaced in an upcoming patch.

Humanoids, not humans. Humans would imply they come from Earth, which isn't in the Endlessverse.

Also, you're forgetting the Endless, one of their races was pretty much humanoid too and the virtuals have a humanoid form. You could argue they used Dust to uplift other factions by giving them humanoid traits (the same way they made Hissho more humanoid-like), but I agree there are way too many humanoids in the Endlessverse in general.

Humanoids that are 100% Mezari ie this universes humans. 

This is more than a coincidence that they have pretty much *no* differences from humans. Not even their bunions XD 

There's a lot to enhance in humans, we are not perfect, so those enhanced mezari would lose much more than hair. But yes, they are pretty much the same AESTHETICALLY as other ***humans*** of ES. Even Endless and Galvrans are ***humans-but*** with some telltale changes that make one distinct. 

Too many near-humans IMHO - and many others can concur.

I even stress *humans* before. It's like you don't read or take me for a fool :>

https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/65-general/threads/33285-attempt-to-trace-the-history-and-timeline-of-the-united-empire?page=2#post-279880

And, regardless, Earth is still officially not part of the Endless Universe ^^

-Slow

Human is a very specific term which refers to Homo Sapiens individuals, since that particular species is native to Earth and the Earth is not part of the Endless Universe, they, therefore, cannot be humans. They look like humans, so we use the term "humanoids" (lit. looking like humans but not actually humans).

since that particular species is native to Earth

Not in Endless Universe, nor in Middle Earth, nor in the Galaxy far far away.

Look, if I take a dog and put it to my imaginary setting, it would still be a dog, and not just some overgeneralized canine.

If you take a dog, put it in your imaginery setting AND establish a narrative link between Earth dogs and your in-universe dogs, then sure, until then it's just a dog-like creature. In this case, since a link has not been established between Earth humans and mezan descendants, they're just humanoids.

twimpix wrote:

Lore in a game can be an amazing thing and the Endless series has fascinating lore. However. While I understand how we try to rationalise things in our heads, at the end of the day we have to accept that this is a game and it doesn't matter THAT much whether the Nakalim are Mezari cousins or not. I've learnt this a few years ago when I got into a debate here on the forums about whether coral reefs on lava planets are legit or not.

That makes a point, but a hunt for Mezan and Mezari is a thing here - with Mezan being found, I guess with an open-end of a questline perhaps bidding its time to rear its head. Here as it's given, there's a chance quasi-humanity was an empire rivalling those of endless with a history spanning milennia. 

Coral reefs on lava planets. I guess if we were ever to find a structure similar to coral we as a species would name it as such. A lava coral that builds reefs :D 

HuskOfKnowledge wrote:

Kuma wrote:

If you take a dog, put it in your imaginery setting AND establish a narrtive link between Earth dogs and your in-universe dogs, then sure, until then it's just a dog-like creature. In this case, since a link has not been established between Earth humans and mezan descendants, they're just humanoids.

It's not a point of this thread, I suppose, but a humanoid moniker only makes sense if you compare it to humans, as if they exist in that universe. 

There are mammals, lizard and insects in-game, and they are known by such names, and I'm pretty sure lizards and co come from Earth. As we know Earth is not found in ESverse...so those lizards come would be errnoeusly named. Luckily, not many people are that much pricky to hunt all |human| references.

In ES2 verse there would be NO humanoids, but rather mezarinoids, if we were to stick with your strict criteria - but then, there are fish, lizards, mammals, languages similar to Earthbound ones...

Let's be thourugh - those are not mammals but warm blooded sucklings and those are not Zorya clan but a Nightlights Group  -as clan is from gaelic highlanders, the same goes for slavic name for aurora borealis. 

Oof, if you're gonna resort to straw mans I'll just stop replying.

First of all, we're comparing species from a human (players) PoV, I don't see why using Earthling words is such a big deal. The universe has its own in-universe languages and alphabets, but it's obviously been "translated" so that people can play it without having to learn an entirely new alien language.

Secondly, mammals, lizards, fish etc are classes and groups, not specific names that refer to a particular species native to Earth, see the difference? 

Little bonus, this is how "human-like" empires are referred to in-game : 

  <LocalizationPair Name="%FailureOnlyHumanoidDescription">Choice Locked: Must be Humanoid Empire</LocalizationPair>

<LocalizationPair Name="%AffinityTerransTitle">Imperials</LocalizationPair>
<LocalizationPair Name="%AffinityTerransDescription">There are many paths for these humanoids, though they tend to prefer economic and military development.</LocalizationPair>

Kuma wrote:

If you take a dog, put it in your imaginery setting AND establish a narrative link between Earth dogs and your in-universe dogs, then sure, until then it's just a dog-like creature. In this case, since a link has not been established between Earth humans and mezan descendants, they're just humanoids.

Dude just don't. If someones worldbuilding says they're dogs, human, what have you, then that's what they are. No narrative link or whatever needed.

Kuma wrote:

REDGUY wrote:

Kuma wrote:

If you take a dog, put it in your imaginery setting AND establish a narrative link between Earth dogs and your in-universe dogs, then sure, until then it's just a dog-like creature. In this case, since a link has not been established between Earth humans and mezan descendants, they're just humanoids.

Dude just don't. If someones worldbuilding says they're dogs, human, what have you, then that's what they are. No narrative link or whatever needed.

In this case, if the writer mentions "they're dogs" that's a narrative link, since you're clearly establishing the link between the creatures in the narrated universe and our own little adorable quadrupedal fluffballs, but in the case of the endless universe, no such link was established.

No, dude. That's still meaningless. Worldbuilding is a fluid thing, they can still be homo sapiens even if they didn't come from Earth or the Milky Way or whatever.

I mean to you they can just be human adjacent, I'm not gonna stop you if that's what you like and how you roleplay it in game.

Edit: Not trying to argue or anything, I'm just saying that's how it is, between worldbuilding and what history you weave in game. It really is a topic I don't mind nerding about.

It's not meaningless by any means, you can't, as a player, infer links where they don't exist, especially when the writers have come to great lengths to make them as alien as possible. I'm not saying they couldn't make an even better universe by removing the humanoids and replace them with completely alien-looking races, because frankly, I'd be in favour of that, but the reason so much of fiction keeps at least some sort of humanoid race is because it's a lot harder for us, humans, to relate to alien races compared to simply self-inserting with a race that looks like us. 

Some people need those races, especially in games, where immersion is extremely important, so as a writer, you kinda have to give them that. What they did with the Endlessverse is to keep them human-like, but to completely remove any traces of Earth from the universe. Maybe we're distantly related because of a precursor race, maybe it's just hand-waved evolutionary convergence but in any case, the link is cognitively avoided to make a better narrative.

Oof, if you're gonna resort to straw mans I'll just stop replying.

First of all, we're comparing species from a human (players) PoV, I don't see why using Earthling words is such a big deal. The universe has its own in-universe languages and alphabets, but it's obviously been "translated" so that people can play it without having to learn an entirely new alien language.

Secondly, mammals, lizards, fish etc are classes and groups, not specific names that refer to a particular species native to Earth, see the difference? 

First of all, you are not giving me mercy by replying to me - i think this is some condescending tone that you brought from your happy pas-agr webpages you frequent or insufferable real-life interactions I bet you have. I guess in a civilized discourse there's no place for those things.

Secondly - humans, as a term WERE and ARE also used to describe other species of genus homo, as our ancestors and cousins on the evolutionary tree. I guess I can find names like "eagle" "wolf" "bear" or a "snake" somewhere in localization files. I have them deleted, but maybe also try looking for "human" in Vaulters or Celestial Worlds packs. 

Thirdly, there was no strawmaning - just logical dissection - that you also TRY to argue with. Humanoids is just a nonsense word, when there's no human in the first place. 

Btw - nice goalposting here bro - with mammals being a ***different*** thing, with your talk about dogs and stuff being totally impossible. Yeah, no. 

Terrans is word-for-word "earthlings" and a catch-all sci-fi term for Earth-based humans. I guess it's only used for Earth-based humans, as I haven't found anything different as of yet.

EDIT: luckily there are some sources other that unpacking the game myself

<div class="locale-string" title="%AcademyQuest02-Compet-
Intro-Description">
<p>No one is even sure of the origin of the being that founded the Academy--whether they are human, Endless, alien, or some unknown form. All stories agree, however, that any being touched by Dust who finds that secretive place and survives its rigors emerges deeply changed--and greatly enhanced.</p>

<div class="locale-string" title="%UE_Quest-Chapter3-Description">

<p>The time has come.</p>

<p>Your grip on the empire has never been tighter, your laws never stronger. The restless nights that plagued your last few years now seem like a bad dream. Every night you lay your head down on your imperial pillow you quickly drift into a deep sleep, waking well-rested and content. What musings thread your dreaming mind are not concerned with paranoia or rebellion or the fate of a young woman slowly growing old in the depths of the imperial prison. The question of who masterminded the rebellion all those years ago no longer vexes you like it did. You'd be lying if you said it no longer troubled you in the slightest, but like your aging body, it is something you will grow to accept. </p>

In my opinion, you are disingenious by selecting only data that proves your point and ignoring such blaring examples, the first in particular, without aknowledging them. I guess there are many more such quirks, as there are mentions of  "humane" "serpentine" "squid" "hawks"(species argument) "dogs"(UE questline even ) (dog argument)(species argument part deux) and such just after a CURSORY search on an incomplete databank. 

Nyarl wrote:

Riftborn mention cats by name in one of their diplomacy blurbs, Earth exists in Endless Universe confirmed.

:big_think:

The point is, that the thread was hijacked with largely pointless and enticing rambling why cannot one describe Mezaris and their descendants as *gasp* humans. I think nobody here ever said that Earth is In ES Verse, so obviously cats are not from Earth but from *somewhere*. They might (and are) rather from Stardust.

Can we all concentrate on the main thread question, without derailing it with snide and missplaced comments that bring little to discussion?

Kuma wrote:

I don't see why using Earthling words is such a big deal. 

It's a big deal to you though, as you refuse to call ES humans anything but humanoids.

Kuma wrote:

Secondly, mammals, lizards, fish etc are classes and groups, not specific names that refer to a particular species native to Earth, see the difference? 

Classes and groups of Earth animals, it's a bilogical classification of Earth species. Anything that would resemble fish but come from another planet would not be fish, because it didn't evolve from Earth life and isn't biologically related to fall under same classification, by your logic.

You've established this silly boundaries for yourself and now pushing yourself to the corner with condradictory statements.

HuskOfKnowledge wrote:

Can we all concentrate on the main thread question, without derailing it with snide and missplaced comments that bring little to discussion?

Yep, sorry, you are right.

I think it comes down to AMP wanting an undead Nubian space race.The lore that makes sense of it comes later.

UPDATE: Mezari won't find Mezan and will find Chiark instead. UE, Vau.lters, Humanoids(Humans)-Custom will find Mezan, the cradle of humanoidity, and only them. This proves, a contrario, that Nakalim aren't in any way related to Mezari, making them alien, logically and stylistically broken. Pics confirming it incoming.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

For those who have not heard yet, the Sobra texture and art are going to be replaced in an upcoming patch.

It's great to hear! 

Will it be Ash as I propose in https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/66-game-design/threads/34614-lore-of-awakening-damage-control-mild-to-radical-proposals-a-cheeky-attempt-at-megathread?page=1#post-287464  

• 2.2. Change this Earth-inspired monstrosity to remove water and maybe change world-status to ASH (they have tech). Aren’t they “planet reclamation” specialists, as they claim? Ash in-game lore states it's basically a post-greenhouse effect desert world.  It's sterile as well, just like desert. A simple fix.

• They don’t have a tech to colonize desert planets from the start, but they have tech to colonize ASH (tier 2). Maybe change their planet type to Ash - as it PERFECTLY fits their intro planet? Even the thumbnail looks like intro.
• 1.5B. Intro landscape seems to be a grey-barren desert.(picture link). is it Sotra(their homeworld)? Their world shouldn’t then be a grey wasteland then?

or desert.
Mezan, another de facto dead world, is also ash https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/114-bug-reports/threads/32223-mezan-planet-ash-type-with-sterile-trait-missing  

 For Nakalim it's pretty much given they will build a Temple here, lore-wise, so it really doesn't matter what type of planet it is on, as it's benefits will be reduced to zero anyway - and they already have tech for ash. 

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

As far as I know, we won't change the planet type, as it could have some unwanted side effects on gameplay (e.g. hampering early growth due to the lower population capacity and low food output, potentially even early starvation.)

Of course, game must be playable. 

Very light proposal:

Remove Strategic Sustence hidden trait AND add Efficient Farmers(+5Food on Sterile). You are now 5 Food * Pop on starting location. Simulation(added cash to buy out 2nd planets, as steriles cannot be made into homeworld through creator), pics collage: see here

OR

Add titanium + hyperium traits. This works great with default Strategic Sustenance +2 Food on Strategic Resources Deposits.

BOTH of these WORK.

Light proposal: 

Adding a trait that they are especially hardy and happy on Sterile planets-Hardened Dwellers (+3Happiness Sterile) or in general foodsavvy - Efficient Farmers(+5Food on Sterile) or adding Hyperium/Titanium deposits (I think it's an oversight, given their *hidden* trait Strategic Sustenance +2 Food on Strategic Resources Deposit ), I guess, would help them. 

Efficient Farmers is in limit of Population(default 45/60 turned into 55/60). Adding 2 deposits sums up traits as 115/100, 6/8. There's a place for malus or not, as Lumeris are 135/100. Lowering default terran to most-sterile like Arid brings it to 105/100, lowering to steriles would balance it out.

In traits menu, they have only 4/8, whereas Lumeris has 9/8 and UC has  13/8!

They are said by Jeff to be also ecologically minded, planet-reclaimers and all, and their effect in custom-race collection bonus, uniquely, an economic one while they are of pacisism disposition. All those support the drive to expand, at least in their homeworld quickly. Lore states they evolved on this dry, hellblown planet so they must be hardy and efficient in growing food.

Hard proposal: 

Change Religious to Economic, they are already anti-Industrialist for some reason(not anti-scientific wtf) and change Faithul to Sanctuarists or Preservationst. 

Nakali mare an oddity, they dont follow the established schema of X + anti-anti-X + optionally y event support X(y->x). I have checked, alsmost all of major races follow it, except Nakalim.

Examples:

Hissho Militarist + Anti-Pacifism + Fanatics(Religious supports Military)

Unfallen Pacifism + anti-Military = Hedonism(E->P)

Sophons Scientific-Anti-Religious - Curious(P->S)

other examples are slightly modified on 2tier - AND ONLY those modify the schema, but in a logical way, based on relationship of sister politics on politics wheel - examples, Horatio/Vaulters(that are twinned S-E) and Vodyani(twinned as of now, with Nakalim).

Nakalim are now X(Religious)+ anti-anti-Z(Anti-Industrialist) +B event supports X(Military->Religious).  This is chaotic.

My proposal: 

Ecologists + Anti-Industrial + Sanctuarists(R->E)/Preservationists(M->E) [but it can also be Utopian (I->E), Conservationists(P->E) or Biologists(S->E)

Prooftesting Light proposal : 

Already testing it. Looks good. Cannot be properly tested, as players cannot made custom races on sterile homeworlds and Strategic Sustenance is hidden tier 1 for Nakalim. 

This ends up with

+2 Happiness on temple, + 2 Food on Strategic Resource Deposit (default) and +5 Food on Sterile. 

Rich deposits of minerals would give them a boost at start that nicely works with their native  Strategic Sustenance +2 Food on Strategic Resources Deposit that is otherwise not used immediately.

Prooftesting Hard proposal: 

I've already tested it. It works great. I've played it with Eco+

Prooftesting hard+light:

Can be done and should be done. It works great IMHO. 

For purposes of gameplay with custom-Nakalim I incorporated all changes of Hard proposal and all chievable changes of Light - I cannot use Strategist Sustenance as well as Auspicious Augurs(both tier 1) so I chose the first ones. As I cannot pick Sterile planets I picked Arid, and as I cannot play with 105/100 traits I picked Poor Strategists 1 as an artificial malus (for all we know, Nakalim are doofuses :D). As of now, turn 40, it is nice.

Question: Why customs can't have sterile homeworlds? Why reverse terraforming is connected with afinity AND NOT Biophobic trait? Those should be fixed. 

Population traits should not be locked to one tier, as Strategic Sustenance and Strategic Science, being twinned, are for some reason, exclusively tier 1 and exclusively tier 2. (Nakalim have two tier 1s, one of them hidden) by default. Ugh.

Personally I've some issues with the Mezari being called "humanoids" because it implies a comparison to species that doesn't exist in the Endless universe (humans). And I also don't understand why cats and other animals are referred to as such instead of feline, canine etc. For all intents and purposes, the Mezari are functionally human, unless AMP can clarify what part of their biology or psychology is fundamentally different from ours. Is their metabolism different? Are they descended from apes at all? How long do they live? Do they have the same organs as us? We know they have sexual reproduction and are visually identical to us and from what I can gather their society (particularly that of the UE) is indistinguishable from ours. The culture on Raia doesn't seem inhuman and the species inhabiting it is very much human-like so functionally I don't see a difference unless there is a biological or psychological feature that truly distinguishes them from RL humans.

But back to the Nakalim. It's perfectly possible they look Mezari because of common genetic roots, but the similarities are really striking. Sure, the Sophons and the Lumeris are also humanoid, but they are definitely inhuman in appearance (although one would argue the Lumeris culture is very Mezari-like. I would argue there's no significant difference, really). Thus it's really hard to understand why the Nakalim look Mezari and I hope one day we get an answer. This information is not needed for a 4X game, but if AMP ever wants to expand the lore to accommodate a roleplaying experience (which will happen given a TTRPG game is in development), then the players need to know what these species are in body, mind and culture in order to actually roleplay them. We need to know the difference between the Mezari and everyone else, because the Mezari are closest to us. Things like biological functions, mentality and even average lifespan are absolutely critical in building up species lore, otherwise everyone is just a human-like alien with a quirk. In that regard the Cravers, Vodyani, Umbral Choir and Riftborn are refreshingly other and alien, which also makes them exceptionally hard to RP.

So, in the long run we kind of need to know if the Nakalim behave like Mezari. Are they mamallian? What is their lifespan? What about new Nakalim born in the empire? Do they have any supranatural abilities, like the ability to attach and levitate additional sets of appendages? Do they have some kind of inborn connection to Dust which sets them apart from the other humanoids? Do they have a pop-culture of some sort? What do they even eat? Do they have a much more complex psychology and memory than the Mezari? When I heard ancient declining empire I honestly thought the species would be very advanced akin to the Eldar and in my headcanon the Nakalim are essentially Eldar: with inscrutable brains, weird biology and a complex culture.