Kuma wrote:

I don't see why using Earthling words is such a big deal. 

It's a big deal to you though, as you refuse to call ES humans anything but humanoids.

Kuma wrote:

Secondly, mammals, lizards, fish etc are classes and groups, not specific names that refer to a particular species native to Earth, see the difference? 

Classes and groups of Earth animals, it's a bilogical classification of Earth species. Anything that would resemble fish but come from another planet would not be fish, because it didn't evolve from Earth life and isn't biologically related to fall under same classification, by your logic.

You've established this silly boundaries for yourself and now pushing yourself to the corner with condradictory statements.

HuskOfKnowledge wrote:

Can we all concentrate on the main thread question, without derailing it with snide and missplaced comments that bring little to discussion?

Yep, sorry, you are right.

I think it comes down to AMP wanting an undead Nubian space race.The lore that makes sense of it comes later.

UPDATE: Mezari won't find Mezan and will find Chiark instead. UE, Vau.lters, Humanoids(Humans)-Custom will find Mezan, the cradle of humanoidity, and only them. This proves, a contrario, that Nakalim aren't in any way related to Mezari, making them alien, logically and stylistically broken. Pics confirming it incoming.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

For those who have not heard yet, the Sobra texture and art are going to be replaced in an upcoming patch.

It's great to hear! 

Will it be Ash as I propose in https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/66-game-design/threads/34614-lore-of-awakening-damage-control-mild-to-radical-proposals-a-cheeky-attempt-at-megathread?page=1#post-287464  

• 2.2. Change this Earth-inspired monstrosity to remove water and maybe change world-status to ASH (they have tech). Aren’t they “planet reclamation” specialists, as they claim? Ash in-game lore states it's basically a post-greenhouse effect desert world.  It's sterile as well, just like desert. A simple fix.

• They don’t have a tech to colonize desert planets from the start, but they have tech to colonize ASH (tier 2). Maybe change their planet type to Ash - as it PERFECTLY fits their intro planet? Even the thumbnail looks like intro.
• 1.5B. Intro landscape seems to be a grey-barren desert.(picture link). is it Sotra(their homeworld)? Their world shouldn’t then be a grey wasteland then?

or desert.
Mezan, another de facto dead world, is also ash https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/endless-space-2/forums/114-bug-reports/threads/32223-mezan-planet-ash-type-with-sterile-trait-missing  

 For Nakalim it's pretty much given they will build a Temple here, lore-wise, so it really doesn't matter what type of planet it is on, as it's benefits will be reduced to zero anyway - and they already have tech for ash. 

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

As far as I know, we won't change the planet type, as it could have some unwanted side effects on gameplay (e.g. hampering early growth due to the lower population capacity and low food output, potentially even early starvation.)

Of course, game must be playable. 

Very light proposal:

Remove Strategic Sustence hidden trait AND add Efficient Farmers(+5Food on Sterile). You are now 5 Food * Pop on starting location. Simulation(added cash to buy out 2nd planets, as steriles cannot be made into homeworld through creator), pics collage: see here

OR

Add titanium + hyperium traits. This works great with default Strategic Sustenance +2 Food on Strategic Resources Deposits.

BOTH of these WORK.

Light proposal: 

Adding a trait that they are especially hardy and happy on Sterile planets-Hardened Dwellers (+3Happiness Sterile) or in general foodsavvy - Efficient Farmers(+5Food on Sterile) or adding Hyperium/Titanium deposits (I think it's an oversight, given their *hidden* trait Strategic Sustenance +2 Food on Strategic Resources Deposit ), I guess, would help them. 

Efficient Farmers is in limit of Population(default 45/60 turned into 55/60). Adding 2 deposits sums up traits as 115/100, 6/8. There's a place for malus or not, as Lumeris are 135/100. Lowering default terran to most-sterile like Arid brings it to 105/100, lowering to steriles would balance it out.

In traits menu, they have only 4/8, whereas Lumeris has 9/8 and UC has  13/8!

They are said by Jeff to be also ecologically minded, planet-reclaimers and all, and their effect in custom-race collection bonus, uniquely, an economic one while they are of pacisism disposition. All those support the drive to expand, at least in their homeworld quickly. Lore states they evolved on this dry, hellblown planet so they must be hardy and efficient in growing food.

Hard proposal: 

Change Religious to Economic, they are already anti-Industrialist for some reason(not anti-scientific wtf) and change Faithul to Sanctuarists or Preservationst. 

Nakali mare an oddity, they dont follow the established schema of X + anti-anti-X + optionally y event support X(y->x). I have checked, alsmost all of major races follow it, except Nakalim.

Examples:

Hissho Militarist + Anti-Pacifism + Fanatics(Religious supports Military)

Unfallen Pacifism + anti-Military = Hedonism(E->P)

Sophons Scientific-Anti-Religious - Curious(P->S)

other examples are slightly modified on 2tier - AND ONLY those modify the schema, but in a logical way, based on relationship of sister politics on politics wheel - examples, Horatio/Vaulters(that are twinned S-E) and Vodyani(twinned as of now, with Nakalim).

Nakalim are now X(Religious)+ anti-anti-Z(Anti-Industrialist) +B event supports X(Military->Religious).  This is chaotic.

My proposal: 

Ecologists + Anti-Industrial + Sanctuarists(R->E)/Preservationists(M->E) [but it can also be Utopian (I->E), Conservationists(P->E) or Biologists(S->E)

Prooftesting Light proposal : 

Already testing it. Looks good. Cannot be properly tested, as players cannot made custom races on sterile homeworlds and Strategic Sustenance is hidden tier 1 for Nakalim. 

This ends up with

+2 Happiness on temple, + 2 Food on Strategic Resource Deposit (default) and +5 Food on Sterile. 

Rich deposits of minerals would give them a boost at start that nicely works with their native  Strategic Sustenance +2 Food on Strategic Resources Deposit that is otherwise not used immediately.

Prooftesting Hard proposal: 

I've already tested it. It works great. I've played it with Eco+

Prooftesting hard+light:

Can be done and should be done. It works great IMHO. 

For purposes of gameplay with custom-Nakalim I incorporated all changes of Hard proposal and all chievable changes of Light - I cannot use Strategist Sustenance as well as Auspicious Augurs(both tier 1) so I chose the first ones. As I cannot pick Sterile planets I picked Arid, and as I cannot play with 105/100 traits I picked Poor Strategists 1 as an artificial malus (for all we know, Nakalim are doofuses :D). As of now, turn 40, it is nice.

Question: Why customs can't have sterile homeworlds? Why reverse terraforming is connected with afinity AND NOT Biophobic trait? Those should be fixed. 

Population traits should not be locked to one tier, as Strategic Sustenance and Strategic Science, being twinned, are for some reason, exclusively tier 1 and exclusively tier 2. (Nakalim have two tier 1s, one of them hidden) by default. Ugh.

Personally I've some issues with the Mezari being called "humanoids" because it implies a comparison to species that doesn't exist in the Endless universe (humans). And I also don't understand why cats and other animals are referred to as such instead of feline, canine etc. For all intents and purposes, the Mezari are functionally human, unless AMP can clarify what part of their biology or psychology is fundamentally different from ours. Is their metabolism different? Are they descended from apes at all? How long do they live? Do they have the same organs as us? We know they have sexual reproduction and are visually identical to us and from what I can gather their society (particularly that of the UE) is indistinguishable from ours. The culture on Raia doesn't seem inhuman and the species inhabiting it is very much human-like so functionally I don't see a difference unless there is a biological or psychological feature that truly distinguishes them from RL humans.

But back to the Nakalim. It's perfectly possible they look Mezari because of common genetic roots, but the similarities are really striking. Sure, the Sophons and the Lumeris are also humanoid, but they are definitely inhuman in appearance (although one would argue the Lumeris culture is very Mezari-like. I would argue there's no significant difference, really). Thus it's really hard to understand why the Nakalim look Mezari and I hope one day we get an answer. This information is not needed for a 4X game, but if AMP ever wants to expand the lore to accommodate a roleplaying experience (which will happen given a TTRPG game is in development), then the players need to know what these species are in body, mind and culture in order to actually roleplay them. We need to know the difference between the Mezari and everyone else, because the Mezari are closest to us. Things like biological functions, mentality and even average lifespan are absolutely critical in building up species lore, otherwise everyone is just a human-like alien with a quirk. In that regard the Cravers, Vodyani, Umbral Choir and Riftborn are refreshingly other and alien, which also makes them exceptionally hard to RP.

So, in the long run we kind of need to know if the Nakalim behave like Mezari. Are they mamallian? What is their lifespan? What about new Nakalim born in the empire? Do they have any supranatural abilities, like the ability to attach and levitate additional sets of appendages? Do they have some kind of inborn connection to Dust which sets them apart from the other humanoids? Do they have a pop-culture of some sort? What do they even eat? Do they have a much more complex psychology and memory than the Mezari? When I heard ancient declining empire I honestly thought the species would be very advanced akin to the Eldar and in my headcanon the Nakalim are essentially Eldar: with inscrutable brains, weird biology and a complex culture.