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Spear of Isyander breaking the game

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5 years ago
Jan 14, 2020, 8:54:32 PM

I like the idea to make an academy a new hostile faction against all of us but the new diplomacy implementation is not required, the spear can be use too soon in the game and this fleet is too strong, it seems like a Tsunami  and the rest of the diplomacy is not usefull, and the Nakalim, faction is too much weak. I bought this dlc but I finally dismiss for playing without to have a great bufffff at each time. It's shame, I hoop so you will fix this. .I stay a fan of this game of course but de stability become pointless.


(heart ombral is week too) but de hack is useful and a good adding.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Jan 15, 2020, 12:32:34 PM

I dunno, UC basically wins close to every game by conquest alone, since it just nonstop grows.

Nakalim seem pretty strong, especially combined with the fact they should be the prime contender for Spear of Isyander.
But I agree that the early game superfleet can be quite influential and it gets stronger with slower speeds.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 2:50:47 AM

It seems more appropriate to let the Spear of Isyander's power increase with turns, for both gameplay and lore authenticity.

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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 10:26:56 AM

To my knowledge, the Spear of Isyander does scale with the game progress (and I believe with how aggressive players have been towards the Academy).

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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 10:56:53 AM

That does not deny the fact that 2 carriers with a buttload of smaller ships protecting them are almost unbeatable turn 40. Scaling is not the case. And the competition itself is a rollercoaster rng fiesta. I wonder what genius of a game designer suggested having a single resource based specific factor determine wether you'll have academy support or not. Some win-win edgelord I suppose, because there is no catchup mechanism for those who fail the competition, ESPECIALLY for those who happen to be near Spear-Win-Winner.

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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 10:57:37 AM
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

To my knowledge, the Spear of Isyander does scale with the game progress (and I believe with how aggressive players have been towards the Academy).

When I got the fleet in turn smth like 40 the first time it was pretty op, containing one carrier and several big ships. Not sure if you fixed or changed this though.

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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 11:16:31 AM

I'm not denying that the Spear is very powerful (though if the fleet had 2 carriers, then I believe it had alrady "leveled up" when you got it), nor would I claim that the scaling is perfect.


However, as far as I recall the resoure Isyander asks for is not picked randomly, but rather the resource with the highest production across the galaxy (with Dust and Influence having a lower weight than strategics,) It has been a while since I looked specifically into that, though.

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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 11:53:42 AM

You see that I was a bit ranty there, I checked it and there is actually one carrier as you say. And the fact that this is not complete random is better than nothing, even though I think it is still a poorly designed system.

See, I am not as bothered by the lack of balance fixes, as I am worried about the lack of (at least!) communication. I get it Cat, as the dev team delegated you the community management, right? It seems like you are the only one active here, trying to solve the problems you can and ignoring those that you can not (which is completely fine). But there are important issues that are (as I get it) beyond your comprehension in terms of fixing, like Special Laws not working (out there for several month!!) or Tooltips Disappearing (out there for almost 2 years!!!!). A year ago specific topics would have been investigated by corresponding specialists. The only justification for that lack of communication could be using almost all the resources on Humankind.

I am very passionate about Amplitude's art of creating games and just hope the mediocrity won't be overlooked. 

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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 1:08:42 PM

Speaking personally for a moment, I want to see all of these problems fixed as much as our community. But as you say yourself, some of them are beyond my scope of comprehension, and others are simply beyond my scope of time, and in the end my job is managing the community rather than fixing issues, so I do what I can to offer the known workarounds.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Jan 16, 2020, 1:24:07 PM
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

However, as far as I recall the resoure Isyander asks for is not picked randomly, but rather the resource with the highest production across the galaxy (with Dust and Influence having a lower weight than strategics,) It has been a while since I looked specifically into that, though.

So you are saying that if I temple couple planets I basically guarantee that it's going to be influential contest + I autowin it? wohoho! nakalim +1
I would though include a reminder that strat resource production across the galaxy is random. And you can easily end up doing hyperium race while you are without it.

Issue could be with the starting power, as it can be attained as early as turn 11, but more likely turn 20. I can't see many player producing adequate forces to counter it in that time.

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5 years ago
Jan 20, 2020, 6:58:24 AM

In my last multiplayer session I won the fleet on the first bidding. The fleet has 20k+ attack power, 16 movement speed, and you get it for 20 turns on normal speed. It comes at a time when everyone is on small hulls.


I had scouted my 2 human opponents. In 4 turns of movement I was at his capital with the fleet, invaded and raised it on the same turn.


I then started to move on the other players capital, at which point everyone said that they don't want to play anymore.


It needs to be toned down by scaling the attack power of the fleet throughout the game. The first round the fleet should be relatively weak. It should be strong for that stage in the game, but not game ending like it is now. Was this tested in multiplayer before release? If so, what is the counter-play?

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5 years ago
Jan 20, 2020, 10:14:40 AM

You are supposed to hack any academy node to immobilize the academy fleet. (In cases the academy node is 10 - 40 nodes away, well, good luck?)
Also setup up roadblocks along the way. Single scout ship will set the fleet speed to 0, unless UCs get it, then it just materialized on your capital, wopsie!
You can also draft 4ever as the invading fleet, while having manpower capacity, is not an autowin button when it comes to invasions and you can hold out, some players and factions are experts at holding out indefinitely unless faced with heavy deployment increase modules.
So all in all do not fight the fleet as it is, fight the invasion, all you basically need is to survive the first wave, end turn supply drop X mp to your home (you create or fly in a fleet with MP with end turn forced movement, so it can no longer be engaged a "pro gamer move" people hate but do), keep fighting for 20 turns while that fleet is rendered "toothless" against anything that is not in orbit as all it's MP is commited to the invasion unless players actually are aware of the retreat button, in that case, wopsie again.


tl:dr give up on space superiority for 20 turns, counter with ground superiority.

You can also just agree not to use the fleet, prioretize other options such as "all the laws you do not have slots or influence for", "space trivia" or "give money to your enemy" or just turn the DLC off.
Certain parts of balancing are simply a mess, so it is always a gentlemans agreement to not make the entire experience worthless because you can just use hissho mining probes to practically reproduce the academy scenario without the academy. Turn 7 craver T2 hull rush anyone?

At which point everyone is just best off playing custom factions.
splicers + cravers + sowers + mining probes for everyone!

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Jan 27, 2020, 9:09:19 PM

I have modded other games but no experience doing it in es2. It sounds like extending the time until the 'round' starts would be a simple fix. Isnt that moddable? 

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5 years ago
Jan 28, 2020, 11:57:11 AM
CVEMF wrote:

I thing that oblevdorohmsic has the solution, yes it could be moddable but I prefer to wait the reaction of the dev because I suspect, they will change that with a new update...



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5 years ago
Jan 30, 2020, 5:34:47 AM

disclaimer: 1 ai of every faction except the faction I chose. Endless difficulty everything, Huge galaxy
EDIT: I do not play multiplayer :(

I have never thought of the spear fleet as overly powerful.

In fact, I'm with the guy that said it should have scaling.

Because it becomes ireelevant later on against behemoths and dedicated combat fleets.
Admittedly, I make a conscious choice to try to get military fleets early.

I find early aggressive pirates to be much more dangerous than the spear fleet early on.

I would like to see the academy diplomacy balanced across various factions, but it would likely require buffs elsewhere.
For example, why can the cravers, only war, no diplomacy faction, routinely and easily secure the academy's fleets.
They should not even have the option of donating to the academy, or they should receive alternative rewards.

Because even Isyander wouldn't be dumb enough to hand them the keys.

I think the spear fleet does arrive at an awkward time. The Destroy a lot of CP with the spear fleet is one of the last 4 achievements I don't have yet.
Because its first arrival comes when fleets are too small.
And by its later arrivals it is too weak.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Feb 7, 2020, 9:49:40 PM

I think the best way to balance the Spear of Isyander fleet is to make you supply the manpower, or something like that. It makes multiplayer nigh-unplayable unless you can perma-immobilize the fleet with hacking, and that's not a good gameplay loop. Better yet, as a fix, just make them give you ships that scale in strength over the course of the game (they still have their insane tech level/improvements, they just give you much lower tier hulls to start and it scales as the game goes on).

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5 years ago
Mar 22, 2020, 10:59:01 PM

Just got back into the game since a couple expansions ago.  This is.... completely broken.  It's so bad I can't even imagine trying to encourage new players in this expansion.  Is there a way to disable only the new Academy mechanics?  Why is a mid-late game fleet being given away on mturn 40 for one resource?  Why are these Academy roles not even remotely balanced against each other?


Am I missing something?  Is the controller of the Spear not allowed to use the fleet to attack the other 3 who "won" the contest, or can they actually attack anyone like it seems?  I have yet to win it because the AI even on normal is able to donate several thousands of dust in order to win this contest (I have no idea how they're doing this, but I know it's that much because I donated 100 dust and achieved 2%).


As a test, I'm going to pick the most militant faction and beeline the hardest to see if it's evem possible to create a fleet that could stand a chance winning against this one. It's not likely possible, but I'm curious how far off it will be.

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5 years ago
Apr 13, 2020, 7:37:09 PM

Same, sadly. I still don't get why the features of the 3 mini-expansions (Behemoths / Hacking / Academy-Diplomacy) weren't the race's unique feature instead of a game-wide feature that ends up breaking all the balance and elegant minimalist design that it had. :(


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5 years ago
Apr 13, 2020, 7:44:20 PM
Carighan wrote:

Same, sadly. I still don't get why the features of the 3 mini-expansions (Behemoths / Hacking / Academy-Diplomacy) weren't the race's unique feature instead of a game-wide feature that ends up breaking all the balance and elegant minimalist design that it had. :(


Imo its just Academy. I admit that behemoths were very clumsy in terms of balance at the beginning with all those stacking modules and science shenanigans, but devs managed to turn them into a pretty good feature at last. Hacking had almost no balance issues at all I think.

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