Blauwhuid wrote:

ElectricArtisan wrote:

I'm starting to get a bit worried that none of the dev team have made a post here yet this has been the most popular thread since early access began hopefully we'll here something soon

This is indeed troublesome. This all pots kinda needs to be stickyed. Over 400k in points. What more do they need to reply to this. 

Admiting they have made massive mistakes and need to tear down the curent system and rebuild it to serve the game they are actualy making. That and deciding if they are doing ES 2 or EL:Beyond Auriga.

Just had a random (brilliant?) thought.  What if the costs of technology scaled up based on the size of your empire rather than simply the number of technologies that you have.  It would be a nice way to distinguish between tall vs wide empires.  Wide empires would have to make sure they scale up their science output whereas a smaller empire would be more efficient and able to tech quickly - also as a way to balance their smaller empire. 

The tech screen was one of the best things about ES1. The descriptions were so delightful, reading them really pulled me into the world of Endless Space. Controlling peoples minds with dark energy? Horatio's dust cosmetics? It was so great. It worked well too in terms of gameplay, I would neglect a quadrant while rushing for something awesome, then try and make up for it later.

So I was quite eager to see what ES2 did. And quite disappointed to discover it's just Endless Legends In Space (or EL: Beyond Auriga, as XDAvenger has so appropriately called it). 

I suppose I can get over the new tech screen's garish look, muddled organisation, and much reduced delightfulness of just reading it for the joy of reading it. But I cannot imagine that I will ever like the escalating cost. Like others have said, we have all the time in the universe. It's very nearly endless, afterall. The only disaster from dawdling that might befall us are the Cravers just beyond the wormhole.

Games with much complexity and selectable difficulty levels should, in my view, follow a certain pattern: the higher the difficulty, the more of the game systems that must be employed to achieve an enjoyable and fulfilling victory. This tech system with escalating costs works against that. If playing on easy then you can explore all the things that science will unlock, but then again, why bother when it's so easy you don't need to. If you're playing on hardest then your route needs to be optimised, streamlined to ignore all the things you can get away with. 

I fear this tech system will induce a tendency for each playthrough to be a mathematically precise sequence of events of little variation, instead of a joyous experience filled with experimentation and new discoveries.

mezmorki wrote:

Just had a random (brilliant?) thought.  What if the costs of technology scaled up based on the size of your empire rather than simply the number of technologies that you have.  It would be a nice way to distinguish between tall vs wide empires.  Wide empires would have to make sure they scale up their science output whereas a smaller empire would be more efficient and able to tech quickly - also as a way to balance their smaller empire. 

Pretty sure this was already how it worked in ES1.

I agree with the above poster and want to throw a vote for a ES1 style tech tree. ES1 was in my opinion a much better game than EL and it saddens me that ES2 is EL in space. The game looks more polished than ES1 and the UI is a lot better, but the science part of the game has taken a huge step back. I hated the tech tree of EL. Me and my friends play ES1 but i dont see myself or any of them pushing to start playing ES2 over continuing to play ES1, and ive adviced those who haven't jumped on the early access to refrain from doing so before we see how things turn out. I hope the developers listen to the players and do something about this.

Like most people here, I think the new tech tree is pretty broken, particularly because of its rising science cost for techs, inciting players to 'skip' unnecessary technologies early in the hopes that they will not be needed until you reach their better cousins (like EL's tier 1 Titanium/Glassteel weapons. I never even understood why they existed).  I think this was a response to the Era design of the tech tree of EL so every research, good or bad, could have the same cost at a given moment, preventing players from rushing eras with cheap but lousy tech or the other way around.

From the dev's point of view, the only thing that really favors the Era design as opposed to a freefrom tree akin to ES1's is the fact that Eras regulate the game's flow and favor balance in conflicts. Researching military techs puts you at an advantage most during the Era they were researched, meaning you have to lag behind in economics so that a player of the same Era with adequate planning will eventually defeat your technologically superior forces as the Era comes to an end because of his superior economy. Similarly, getting better weapons just by moving up Eras means that even the most pacifist nation can't really be caught pants down by ambitious Cravers if it is an industrial powerhouse. It also helps regulate the player's economy and growth by placing keystone techs at strategic moments in the game, like EL's Bread and Circuses which was clearly meant to coincide with your first large-scale colonization push.

What bugs me though is that while basic weapons got 'eaten up' so to speak by the Eras, everything else was dropped. Eras do not provide new diplomatic actions, Planetary Exploitations, Industry conversions, etc... Heck, even the system upgrades require a tech to concretise even though that might be the single most Era-dependent mechanic currently in the game. I feel like every awesome mechanic enabling me to make interesting strategic choices has been forcefully locked down in the tech tree just for the sake of levelling basic weapons, making the game feel all the more random and dumbed down, since you can't really use 'non-optimal' techs unless you're sure they'll be of immediate use. By the time they're done, I usually don't need them anymore, not to mention that it will deprive you of opportunities later on. Really, the number of 'mandatory' techs that currently lock a core game mechanic behind a science wall is so great, making tech choices is more just choosing in which order I'm going to research all the same techs as last game.

In my opinion, should really brush aside the whole Era system, as it fits poorly in the context of galactic civilizations. Either we come up with a better means to  tightly regulate game flow or we aknowledge the lack of such control as a principle of the game's design and return to a time of potentially having only Tier 1 guns on turn 178. One possible solution I thought of would be to limit higher research by imposing a cost increase, increase which can be negated by the construction of wonder-like Great Experiments, large scale scientific apparatuses which make previously difficult experimentation accessible. These would be unique system improvements unlock by completing a certain number of researchs. The would negate the cost increase associated with an higher Tech tier so long as you control them, but they could also provide other benefits. Besides, making them system-bound means more aggressive races could potentially attempt to steal them so they can further certain areas of research while lacking in general science. Their benefits could also be shared over diplomatic treaties, one species proving another with access to the benefit provided by the device so long as the treaty holds.

While at it, I'd also spice up my favorite race's kinda lame affinity as of now : the Sophons science bonus... I mean, it's cool but I use it a lot less than the tax rate bonus from ES1, especially because I have a ten-tech checklist for each Era. Given the race's lore (and emotionally impulsive approach to science), I'd give them a science production bonus lasting a few turns whenever a new Grand Experiment is built, but only if the current tech being research is associated to it. Because you know, everyone wants to play with the shiny new toy now. And blow stuff up with it.

Paging the devs, 530k G2 points and nary a response, everyone else has pretty much covered why there's concerns. Anyone home?

mezmorki wrote:

Yeah, I don't why know why there's nothing but crickets from the dev's here. 

Anyway... putting my constructive hat on... What about this idea:

What if each of the four quadrants was essentially it's own era-pathway and unlocked independently of the others?  Likewise, escalating costs would only apply within each of the fields/quadrants rather than to the entire technology tree.   

For for example, maybe you need to research three technologies within a quadrant to unlock the next era in that field. Itcould also require at least two quadrants to be unlocked in the current era to be able to advance to the next.  So for example, to get to era 3 military tech you'd need era 2 military unlocked (with at least three technologies) as well as one other era 2 quadrant/field.

This system could allow more differentiation and specialization, as you could decide to make a bee-line down a certain technology pathway (like in ES1) with only having to invest in one other supporting field along the way (which you'd probably want to do anyway).  If the escalating costs were only contained within their respective field, it would let you go back later on to research other earlier technologies in other fields relatively cheaply when you needed it.  Again, this would feel more like ES1 - but wouldn't require "re-doing" the whole approach in the process.

I think what would also help this system is to split up a lot of the technologies.  Right now, a lot of quadrants only have about four technologies in them.  I'd be in favor of reducing the overall costs of technology but then splitting many of the techs that currently give you two new capabilities into a two techs that just give one each.  This might make things easier to balance and would also build in more variety and ways to move through the tech progression - in turn making the game more replayable.

Thoughts?

essentialy this was my first ideea for how to keep an era-like system in place while solving the cripling issues of the curent system. Of course, I will stick to my guns that the curent tech system is not fitting of ES 2 and we need something other than an era based system, at least I am doing that until someone can definetively prove me the merits of the era system with logical fact based argumentation and not the illusion of choice the era system presents.

I read this whole thread. So glad others agree the tech system doesn't work. It's weird, I couldn't wait for this game to go EA to have some feedback, but I havn't read anything from he devs here or on steam about the design issues people are complaining about. Man I hope this game turns out good in the end....

I think the Devs are adressing player feedbacks (or at least, replying to them) starting for the most easy to handle. Tech system is the greater of issues, and perhaps the most complex to deal with. We will get a reply when they decide how to adress it properly (maybe there is even some internal disagreements on how to fix it).

Let's let them think about it and don't despair...

Greedis wrote:

I think the Devs are adressing player feedbacks (or at least, replying to them) starting for the most easy to handle. Tech system is the greater of issues, and perhaps the most complex to deal with. We will get a reply when they decide how to adress it properly (maybe there is even some internal disagreements on how to fix it).

Let's let them think about it and don't despair...

i get what your saying but itd be good for them to just make an appearance to clarify that they appreciate the issues people have and that they'll be looking at it. a little recognition i think is all we want

Greedis wrote:

I think the Devs are adressing player feedbacks (or at least, replying to them) starting for the most easy to handle. Tech system is the greater of issues, and perhaps the most complex to deal with. We will get a reply when they decide how to adress it properly (maybe there is even some internal disagreements on how to fix it).

Let's let them think about it and don't despair...

I love Amplitude, they're my favorite developer. The sheer quantity of threads about this shows that it's a pretty demonstrable issue (About half the threads on the first page are about the tech system). I don't think anyone is demanding a solution right now, and some of the replies in other problem threads haven't been "Here's how we'll fix this" they've just been "We acknowledge there's a problem". The fact that there has been no reply to any of these threads is somewhat alarming and aggravating to quite a few people here, because it feels like it's being intentionally avoided.

I agree with your assessment that them saying "We need to change this, and that, add this, and remove this other thing" are a long ways off with the tech system (If they even will change it). That's AOK. We just need a "Hey, Amplitude here. We acknowledge the issue/We think it's working great" response.

just to keep things going has anyone else seen the devs responding to any other threads related to the issues the community has with the technology system. im wondering if we should start emailing them directly as a way to get their attention

Frogsquadron (dev) responded to the tech question in this thread:

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/65-general/thread/21861-so-like-what-s-going-on

Frogsquadron wrote:

We'll be trying new things with regards to the tech tree.

Staying purposefully vague as we're iterating internally and don't want to commit to anything at this stage, but just rest assured that your feedback on the tech tree is mostly shared by the team. There are good things with the current tech tree, but it's generally a bit confusing and the pretty spreadsheet still looks too much like a spreadsheet. There are some other elements we're aiming to keep, such as the fact that it's not a tree but a more open system, and the way the color coding and the techs are separated by "families" making it easier to parse.

We'll see how we like the changes before we make any decision to release it to the community at large though, so it might take a while before you get to see it, if you get to see it.

ElectricArtisan wrote:

just to keep things going has anyone else seen the devs responding to any other threads related to the issues the community has with the technology system. im wondering if we should start emailing them directly as a way to get their attention

As per above, we have a bit of an answer, though one that seems to imply the current system will (Sadly) be maintained.