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Forced Truces

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8 years ago
Oct 9, 2016, 9:34:57 AM

Jomsviking, I am glad that this problem is being discussed and moreover, you inspired me to speculate around solving it too! :)


I would suggest:

1) Your empire has "war tiredness" (any synonym) stat which depends on militarist-pacifist balance and your casualties over X turns. When war tiredness exceeds its limit, you begin increasingly loosing influence each turn AND empire approval slightly decreases. If you are out of influence, you (your senate) automatically sends "fair" truce proposal to ALL your foes (starting with those who have best win score) at the end of the turn if you did not negotiated it yourself. If you have nothing to propose for a fair truce, your empire approval decreases significantly. Casualties from an adversary who declared war on you (or is an ally of an aggressor) have less impact upon war tiredness progress (defensive war effect). The same is actual for casualties from a foe who occupies systems which were first colonized by your empire (irredentism effect). Pacifist-ruled senates also give aggressive war turn counter which is to be added to casualties effect - in case the war was declated by that pacifist empire. Once a truce is declared, you recover from casualties caused by THIS faction over 10 turns. 


Consequently:

1) If war goes extremely well (no casualties on your side), your people don't oppose such a war.

2) Significance of influence rises. At the moment, it is a very underpowered resource since mid-game.

3) Militarist-pacifist distinction is better represented. Surely, rebalance will be required in favour of pacifists and against militarists.

4) Problem of unpredictability of forced truce is solved.

5) Bilateral peace treaties did not make sense: if your senate is tired of war, why to make peace with only one enemy? As Vodyani, I had to delay a war against my second neighbour just because I would skip X turns of abduction since truce begins. So weird.

6) More interesting military policies: provoke an adversary to declare war so that you had a justification for annexation; get pacifists out of the senate so that they could't undermine the people's morale; attack a stronger enemy suffering from war protests and force him to give you an easy tribute.

7) Referring to the initial suggestions: this way does not imply inherent racial features; as for Cravers, they can avoid war tiredness indirectly: through racial inclination to militarism and factual militarist behaviour of a player.


The formula for that mechanic would look like that:

MP=Militarist Population% * 0,7

MS=Militarist Senators % * 0,3

PP=Pacifist Population % * 0,7

PS=Pacifist Senators % * 0,3

OP=Other Population % * 0,7

OS=Other Senators % * 0,3

MC=your Command Points lost over latest 20 turns (military casualties)

CC=your Population killed over latest 20 turns (civil casualties)

OS=Once your population in Systems that are now Occupied by enemy.

D=Defensive war? Yes=0,6; No=1

I=Irredentist war? Yes=0,8; No=1

PS=Pacifist-run senate and you are the one who declared the war? Yes=1;No=0. Multiplied by game speed and FIDS (cannot tell formula now).

N=# of turns the war is conducted.

T=War tiredness which is separately counted for war with each enemy (T1, T2, T3, etc).

TT= Total tiredness, a sum of all T

TL=Tiredness Limit, derivative of FIDS

IL=Influence lost per turn after TL is reached, derivative of FIDSI (cannot tell formula now)

AL=Approval lost per turn after TL is reached = 1

AL2=Approval lost per turn after event of influence deptition = 5


T=(MC+CC*2+OS)*((MP+MS)*0,75+(PP+PS)*1,25+(OP+OS)*1)/200*D*I) + PS*N


Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 9, 2016, 9:04:59 AM

The forced truce shouldn't be in the game. Especially not with NPCs.


Not only does it prolong the Game, it also is incredible bad game design since their seems to be no counter play. Combined with the closed Borders, they can lock up whole armies of yours in a system.


Not only has it no counter play but I also don't get how it integrates with the lore. Who forces the truce on you, exactly? And why do I only receive a paultry amount of dust for it and can no make my own demands? I mean, ~80 dust over x turns is nothing, if just repairing ships costs way more.


Forced Truce would be ok as an ability for a pacifist - diplomatic empire, but giving it to nearly everyone (even Cravers use forced truce on you ...) is just bad form. Made my Craver playtrough incredibly unsatisfying.


If you must integrate it, at least consider that you could easily break the truce with the penalty that all other factions have worse relations with you.

Updated 8 years ago.
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8 years ago
Oct 9, 2016, 4:28:08 AM

It's an interesting situation, because while it seems the majority of players on here and on Steam don't find the current implementation compelling I also think it's hard to say that this mechanic is inherently bad



This right here, is what I'd identify as the real issue we are struggling with:

Venatos wrote:


also in my current game im in my 3rd forced truce for 15 turns again after like 5 turns of war, at this rate i will probably spend around 70 or more turns in forced truce.

if i remember correctly the standard game only goes 150 turns or so and i still have 2 more factions to kill after this one.

spending up to half your gametime in forced truces is a tad exessive no matter how you turn it.


That being said, the game actually says that you can break forced truces in exchange for a large amount of influence. This isn't actually possible at the moment, but it suggests to me that a 'fix' for this mechanic is already planned.


With any luck, we'll soon see a more nuanced and useful way to interact during wartime using truces etc... Being able to extort a weak empire sounds like a pretty fun, and immersive, way to boost your economy (which would likely be strained by the large military needed to actually do this). 


Anyways thanks for the feedback, I'll keep toying with these ideas.

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 1:21:26 PM

Really strange new mechanic.

I guess this has some sense, gameplay speaking, to give a chance to long terms strategies and factions to win but, lore speaking this has no sense.


Playing the cravers, as they don't know peace (can't even sign such treaties and lote explicitly says they are made for war and destruction) why would they respect a truce or being forced to truce ?


In addition, war result, when truce is forced, is way too light on available informations.

What is war result exactly ?Guess it's the same system as in EuropaUniversalisIV with war score being a direct way to "buy" things from other party.

Mainting fleets to have the upper hand in a conflict is way more expensive that the dust/turn you get in forced truce.


I guess (and hope) it's just some EarlyAccess attempt

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 11:03:52 AM

the simple fact is that you cant force a truce! especialy if your on the loosing side of the conflict. 

who would enforce the truce? the loser certanly cant. 

if you offer enough money, the winning side might let you squirm a little longer, but you have nothing that could stop them if they dont want to.


also in my current game im in my 3rd forced truce for 15 turns again after like 5 turns of war, at this rate i will probably spend around 70 or more turns in forced truce.

if i remember correctly the standard game only goes 150 turns or so and i still have 2 more factions to kill after this one.

spending up to half your gametime in forced truces is a tad exessive no matter how you turn it.


i get that the mechanic is supposed to give the losing side some time to recoup and artificially lengthen the conflict time, but 15 turns is just way to long.

we all know that truces have to be agreed by both partys, but if you have to have this cluncy gamemechanic please turn it down to 5-7 turns or so.

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 7:13:52 AM

While I do not have a fix for this feature...I agree that the current Forced Truce system is frustrating.  Jomsviking raising some interesting ideas.  For what it's worth I recommend taking another look at Forced Truce in the current form and possibly adjusting it.  Just my two cents.

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 5:52:31 AM

It's a stupid mechanic when it has the ability to entirely collapse a strong empire almost instantly over territory not worth keeping. For whatever reason, losing a tiny backwater planet with only 1 population forced me into a treaty where I had to pay 70 dust/turn, but also turned my economy completely on it's head with a 200 dust/turn loss for no explained reason. Within two turns I was forced to sell off all the assets that would have saved my empire, all for a forced truce over a nothing planet. It's a dumb feature to begin with, even if all the kinks get ironed out. Maybe make it an option in setting up games?

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8 years ago
Oct 8, 2016, 3:23:45 AM

At the very least the "Only War" Trait should mean that you cannot have a truce forced on you.

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8 years ago
Oct 7, 2016, 9:47:35 PM

This 


For example, a Vodyani faction with a powerful military appears to be gearing up for war. The player, a Lumeris faction, uses their spies to rig the upcoming Vodyani elections in favor of the pacifists and effectively neuters the Vodyani's ability to prosecute an effective war.


would be awesome!

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