Meedoc wrote:

Cronstintein wrote:

I have a preference for the era-less version from the first game.  Mostly because the progression was completely clear and you didn't get "free era-tech" weapons/armor.  I find these completely negate any need to invest in military techs.

Having things split into eras doesn't really fit thematically with sci-fi IMHO.  It makes more sense when talking about history, like for a game of Civilization or Endless Legend.

That said, a lot of people liked this suggestion and it's still sounds better than the current system, so that's good!

Removing the Era is not a trivial change as other mechanics and game pace is built on this concept. Still, depending on how it goes, we will see if keeping them make sense.

Cheers,

I can't speak for the others, but I will say: You have some of my money. If you want, I honestly don't mind providing more of my money. But please, take as long as is needed to set everything right. I'd rather $60 well spent than $40 that feels disappointing.

For what it's worth, I am positively elated by the decision you've made regarding the tech system. Sounds like it will suit the game much, much better than the previous implementation.

Cronstintein wrote:

I have a preference for the era-less version from the first game.  Mostly because the progression was completely clear and you didn't get "free era-tech" weapons/armor.  I find these completely negate any need to invest in military techs.

Having things split into eras doesn't really fit thematically with sci-fi IMHO.  It makes more sense when talking about history, like for a game of Civilization or Endless Legend.

That said, a lot of people liked this suggestion and it's still sounds better than the current system, so that's good!

Removing the Era is not a trivial change as other mechanics and game pace is built on this concept. Still, depending on how it goes, we will see if keeping them make sense.

Cheers,

Hobbesian wrote:

This is also a problem of using the era system, you essentially have to bundle the techs together in sometimes illogical and nonsensical ways for them to fit within the era system, at least in the tree system most techs followed some kind of logical progression. With an era system that tracks "independently" per quadrant that makes a halfway house between the two systems but that's still going to be worst of both worlds because you're basically dealing with tech cost creep (unless that too is tracked independently) and you're still dealing with something that *LOOKS* like a tree but isn't.

They'd almost be better off scrapping the current Tech system and trying to go at this afresh before they get too committed to a system that's clearly not working, or reverting to ES1's tech system and then building outwards from THAT, because at least ES1's system, for all it's faults actually worked as intended for the space 4X genre. This one is attempting to bash a square peg into a round hole and the issues it's throwing up constantly from the attempts to do so are myriad (and not just limited to the tech system either, it's causing issues elsewhere in the game as a direct result of the tech tree nonsense).

Given the ongoing trend of the Endless series to follow FIDSI, wouldn't it be more appropriate to group techs according to what they act upon in the FIDSI sphere and then divide the "circle" into five discrete areas - "Food and terraforming", "Economy and happiness", "Industry and Military", "Science and Theory" and "Politics and Influence", at least THAT starts making more sense.

Sadly, while I agree with this so, so very much, I think it's pretty safe to say that awful Era system is here to stay. Given that the fix to the "useless blob of tech" was to simply shift it to "four useless blobs of tech" I don't think there's absolutely any interest on Amplitude's end for getting rid of the damned thing. The only silver lining to it all, is that they'll be giving us the tools to make a proper tree ourselves, as they're splitting it in to four categories, plus introducing dependencies in a few cases. Shouldn't be impossibly difficult to grab those and simply force dependencies for each and every tech in each of the four categories.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

Klondike wrote:

Now, let's take a look at the problems of the current system:

1)Too many 'required' techs to allow gameplay options, limiting build diversity.

2)Techs need to be organized differently/better.

Maybe they should give the minor faction diplomacy, the buyout and everything that belongs to core gameplay as free techs for progressing a level in the quadrants ?

Exemple : when acheiving level 2 in the "expand" quadrant (influence & food), then you get the diplomacy to minor faction as a free gift. When you acheive level 3, you would get diplomacy to major factions.

Etc.

This would remove the need to lock one of your tech on those (if you want to optimise your science progression), so I think it would be in the end more choices for the player ?

That's actually a good idea and encourages you to not necessarily buy certain techs, but specialize in those areas. Another idea would be in the military quadrants that researching so many of a section would increase your maximum fleet size. Similar to what they plan with constellation control.

Klondike wrote:

Now, let's take a look at the problems of the current system:

1)Too many 'required' techs to allow gameplay options, limiting build diversity.

2)Techs need to be organized differently/better.

Maybe they should give the minor faction diplomacy, the buyout and everything that belongs to core gameplay as free techs for progressing a level in the quadrants ?

Exemple : when acheiving level 2 in the "expand" quadrant (influence & food), then you get the diplomacy to minor faction as a free gift. When you acheive level 3, you would get diplomacy to major factions.

Etc.

This would remove the need to lock one of your tech on those (if you want to optimise your science progression), so I think it would be in the end more choices for the player ?

I appear to be of the minority opinion: I like the Era system. Personally tech trees kind of make me cringe, I dont know why I just dont like them. They're the reason my favorite Total War game is Medieval 2, and also why my favorite 4x game is Endless Legend. Granted, I'm not saying that the current era system doesn't have its own problems. Then again this isnt a finished product and shouldnt be expected to be totally balanced at this point in time.

First, let's look at the things that will probably never change about the tech system:

1) They're sticking with Era, whether you are for or against it. That much has been said.

2) The four categories, Science and Exploration, Dust Industry and Resources, Influence Food and Approval, and Military Techs will most likely stay the same.

3) Technologies will get more expensive as the game goes on, and potentially take longer to research. This may be done either through increasing cost by tech, higher base costs, or Era related costs, most probably a mix.

Now, let's take a look at the problems of the current system:

1)Too many 'required' techs to allow gameplay options, limiting build diversity.

2)Techs need to be organized differently/better.

As far as the first one goes I think it's a pretty easy fix compared to reworking the entire tree. Amplitude has already changed the game to allow colonization of Class II planets from the get go, so there is really no limiting other things, such as diplomacy with minor factions. Honestly the weirdest thing to me is having to get a tech to buy out constructions. I mean, on a level it makes sense, but on another its kinda like, "Wait what?"

Anyway I'm rambling. I think, in its current state (which we all know is not at all permanent so this whole discussion at this point may be nothing more than mental gymnastics) the era system is not implemented as well as it is in Endless Legend. I think in EL the system is helped by the vastly different playstyles of each faction, with some not using certain resources or even having access to certain gameplay options. In ES2 the factions differ less dramatically, which isnt a bad thing really. Honestly it's probably better to balance them against each other.

P.S. we've already seen very "soft limits" in the Era system, the Titanium and Glassteel armor and weapon techs reduced the cost of further techs for them. I know its like 1 example, but it has been done.

my two cents on the matter while the game finishes it end turn is:

Try to replicate the hero tree skill. Instead of skill points its turns. You can also say that is the same as endless space 1, but if it aint broken don't fix it.

Well that's it for now folks.

Like everybody else here I think that there's a problem with the tech tree as it currently stands. For the most part, technology choices aren't really that, and in my games I follow the same paths - as everybody else seems to do. Maybe I don't pick the same techs in the same order; maybe I change one or two techs every game, for variety's sake. But it's pretty much the same, given how many technologies seem mandatory.

I decided to do something differently with my most recent game (RIP due to save/load problems), which was focus on food and happiness buildings. The original goal was to try to get the Ecologist faction into power by the T20 or T40 elections; sadly this did not happen, but my gameplay was impacted by the choices I made, and I altered my research pattern fairly significantly without screwing over my empire. I still researched necessary techs: medium hulls, strategic resources, industry -> dust converter, some colonization and exploration techs, fleet cap increase, trade companies. But the tech divergence was greater than usual and my empire was still able to develop fairly well. It turns out that by focusing on food, happiness and luxuries, you get large system populations rather quickly, which can make up for deficiencies in infrastructure. Who would've thought. Still, the game was anomalous in that I had completed the Sophon main questline by T19, and through quests assimilated four minor factions by T14 (three on the same turn), which is quite frankly ridiculous and SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. But that is another problem entirely. This was not a controlled study, unfortunately; it's entirely possible that my tech choices significantly hindered empire development but the rapid expansion from assimilation buoyed my empire so much that I didn't notice.

In previous games, my empire development was significantly worse when I emphasized development of Ecologist-related infrastructure than when I played normally. But that's anecdotal and only based off of limited experience. I guess that my point is this: in order to determine whether we really are locked into choosing the same techs every game, we should play differently and compare how well we do based on tech choices. No galaxy or game will end up the same (until we can properly load a save game again, and test various research/development paths in the same map over and over again), but by doing this experimentation we can figure out how much of an effect on gameplay our tech choices have.

TL; DR: I support the idea that the tech system needs fixing, but don't entirely buy into the idea that we must do the exact same thing every game or else suck. I think we should experiment.

P.S. My games are played on Hard difficulty, Twin Elliptical, all random AI, and I have never not snowballed. Better data/experience might be gained by playing at higher difficulty settings.

I agree with the idea that the game is essentially presenting an illusion of choice. Ever since the inability to load save games, I've experimented with how best to play the early-phase, and like Romeo, I've stuck to the same tech choices nearly every game. It goes something like this: 

Baryonic Shielding (for movement speed) -> Hyper Cyphers or Fluid Nanodynamics (depending on which colonization tech is more useful from scouting) -> Xenobiology (to assist minor faction) -> Xenology + Plasma Metallurgy (to start hoarding strategics) -> 1 or 2 of the 3 techs that give planet specializations depending on what planets were colonized -> the Public-Private Partnerships science tech -> the remaining colonization/planetary specialization tech -> Infinite supermaket and National Museum if not Era 2 yet.

Then by era 2, it's all the war techs first:

(Big data shipyards if safe to do so) -> Battleships -> Command point upgrade. Then the AI Labor tech and Relativistic Economics for industry/dust to fund war/expansion. This is followed by Graviton-shielded labs, the -25% over-colonization penalty tech, Commercial frameworks for the trade company and market heroes, a colonization tech, Impactless sites (for planet specialization and more strategics), Cruisers 

Just taking all the techs necessary for a stable early-game empire puts the player at era 3 already. By era 3, the priorities are likely strategics first, then the improved big ships/Carrier and command point increase. After this, it's the +2 trade subsidiaries tech, the improved planet specializations tech, and remaining approval techs. 

The techs that usually have low priority are: food techs, strategic weapon techs (usually not worth it compared to bigger/improved ships with the +exp system improvements, plus they become obsolete fairly quickly), diplomacy/politics techs, max manpower/invasion defence techs, influence and unnecessary colonization techs. If these aren't bundled with the important techs, they're usually ignored.

If the era system is to be preserved, I think the solution is either to require less techs to reach a new era (while reducing the automatic benefits gained from advancing to new eras), or to add much more techs to each era (with the new techs adding buildings/empire improvements/gameplay options that are competitive with the existing ones. Option 1 might allow for a degree of specialization that makes giving up a well-rounded empire worthwhile (later eras could be made to require an increasing number of techs to reach to balance pacing) , while option 2 allows for choice and specialization within an era.

dannyslag wrote:

Tech tree vs era, the great debate of the 21rst century or something.

My 2 cents, someone earlier in the thread pointed out not to be too hasty wanting a tree with cheap catch-up costs because it's the nice to be able to get all the techs, yes. But you've also got to consider rewarding specializing in certain techs.

Game replayability wise, the less techs you can get in any given play through the more varied your experiences will be. The more unique games you play. 

I dig the circles.

It's funny, because barring my first "training wheels" game, I've used the exact same tech choices in every game this time around. The tech tree from the first I changed my path depending on what my circumstances required.

I have a preference for the era-less version from the first game.  Mostly because the progression was completely clear and you didn't get "free era-tech" weapons/armor.  I find these completely negate any need to invest in military techs.

Having things split into eras doesn't really fit thematically with sci-fi IMHO.  It makes more sense when talking about history, like for a game of Civilization or Endless Legend.

That said, a lot of people liked this suggestion and it's still sounds better than the current system, so that's good!

N.N.Thoughts wrote:

I would also break up the technology pairs as it takes too long to research a technology and you often end up with a pair that you didn't need. It's not even that the pairings match that well thematically. 

I've felt the same way.  I'd rather there be 30 techs in an era, with me needed to research 15 or 20 or whatever to advance eras, but have the cost of techs go down so there is a quicker pace of advancement.  

Also, I think the changes to the tech cost in the last patch are very good.  Big jumps in era costs, but smaller jumps at old eras, means that it is no possible to go back and pick up early era techs later quite quickly (like researching them in 1 turn).  Good move already.

I would also break up the technology pairs as it takes too long to research a technology and you often end up with a pair that you didn't need. It's not even that the pairings match that well thematically. 

I've been playing some more post-patch.

I think the problem with technology in this game is less about the structure of the tree/era system and more to do with the technologies themselves.  Frankly, there are just too many technologies that are required picks for all races / playstyles.  Then there are a bunch of other tech's that don't seem like they are ever worth taking.  I find myself swimming in influence - and all those +influence tech's I ignore completely.

Core functionality of the game that is locked into techs:

- Diplomacy with minors

- Basic diplomacy with other empires

- Trade system (basically +dust generation)

- Market place system

- Luxury resource collection/trade

- Colonization techs (you can get by with skipping them here and there, but long-term you need them)

I think it would help open up the tech tree options is most or all of the above were basic technology accessible right from the start of the game (yes even colonization).

The affected technologies could be changed to provide strong bonuses or perks to the associated activities, which would put them on par with other non-essential technologies.  For example, maybe you can colonize a greater range of planets at the start - but suffer large happiness penalties or other negatives until you research the appropriate tech.  Advancing your trade technologies could expand the profitability, or the number of allowed subsidiaries, or raise the trade route cap, etc. for empires that want to focus on that.  Diplomacy tech could help reduce influence costs or allow you to make more favorable deals, etc.

XDAvenger93 wrote:

...

Yep, agree with this whole post. Endless Space had its faults. I loved the game a lot, and even I had to admit it had its flaws. But then build on the game, and fix the things that didn't work. Don't just change it because you want to change it. And certainly don't change it because your different game got some good coverage.

Oh well, as I said, my sincere hope is the new system will at least give us the option to fix it with modding.