Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

By "worse in a big system", you mean the more players there is, the worse they are ?

I'm first at any score (in a 6 player game, normal everything).

I think for 6 players, Sophons are OP. Not "a little OP..." but completly OP. I will wait 8 players games to be sure though.

Their only problem is production and dust, but it's easy to completly canonstart and make those both things exactly your strong points :

More players, yeah. They're the only one who does worse with bigger matches. And they are assuredly not OP in full eight-player matches, I can promise you that. They aren't as bad as the Cravers are, but they're the next worst, for sure.

So we agree that their trait, lore and actual gameplay kinda contradict each other, don't they?

uriak wrote:

So we agree that their trait, lore and actual gameplay kinda contradict each other, don't they?

Agreed, but while the faction affinity will take a bit of work, I think the rest of their  early game issues can simply be solved by tweeking the stats of their homeworld. If you're going to have unique planets, might as well make them unique, right?

For the Dust problem, sophons starting hero is a counselor which will help with dust production (ok, you need to pass the first level but it is not that long). 

I was playing on normal difficulty with sophons, I had 7 systems with 1 planet colonized each time. Out of my 7 planets, 4 were cold world and 1 was a cold gas giant (with Deuyivans on it). I was also having Pilgrims and Z'vali as minor factions (plus amoeba) so I was definitely playing full science. To improve my colonies, I was mostly using jadonyx for system improvement (faster construction) and the Z'vali happiness bonus made my population grow really fast. I was first at scoring at turn 60 (I had to stop because at some moment I would not be able to end the turn...).

So I may have been a bit lucky with the minor factions but otherwise, playing full science with sophons does not seem to be out of reach in normal difficulty.

However, I have not tried yet higher difficulties, maybe this becomes more challenging in that case, I don't know...

Still wish they'd adjust the Sophon affinity to get it in line with everyone else. Like I said, it's a little disappointing that they're the only group who does worse in a big system.

Actually I still thinking that problem with Sophons is not their main affinity, but this is not working well with theri traits. I wrote a thread about this some time ago, and problem seem still the same. there's now also the problem with their initial industry output.

I'm doing similar strategy that Kweel_Nakashyn proposed and working pretty well on normal and sipral 4-arms galaxies, medium size, but not sure what sill happen when I start to rise difficulty (to be clear: I nver do this before release, or latest updates/patches when thing are more sttled) or use another galaxy config and found a craver next to me.

The question is : "how do I get production points and dust in this game ?"

1. you need some food to make your empire grow

2. you need infrastructures to make your population more productive

Everything you do in early game is turned  toward that. 

Ok sophon has no specific trait related to that, but the racial affinity is not a problem. The research time reduction is something very versatile. You can adapt to almost any situation.

Sophons can be very agressive. Or not. You can decide this. But you do not have much choice on turns 1 -> 30, you build up an empire so... you need to produce and grow.

I think people like sophons because they want it to be the (kind of) asgaard of stargate. Peacefull and advanced.

I think I'll try to make a sophon game and turn it to a military dictatorship. I am pretty sure that is highly valuable.

racial bonus is focused on research. This does not mean that you should focus on research with sophons. I played twice a sophon endless game, and actually, you need to focus on industry and food production to grow.

It is also true that other civilisations can grow much faster.

For example the united empire... is a bit too fast. Maybe it is because of the research speed, wich is not that much a penalty on nower design.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

But how do you explain that from turn 5 to 67 actually I'm #1 in all scores but one (which is dust, I forgot the religious law) ?

In any of my games ?

If they were the second worst people, I should have difficulties in one or another area, no ? Even with 6 guys ? Maybe be #2 at least somewhere ?

I end fighting factions that have specialties, but I'm better than them, each time : I think you don't know how to use science to cure all the problems you think they have, did you win some games with them ?

Try the first 20 turns with what I said, it should take you half an hour of your time, you will basically steamroll anyone (I think). At turn 20 I've got 3 planets, and from there, this is basically gameover for the AI (they will never rejoice).

At turn 67, I'm basically era 4 everywhere and constructing my first all era 4 weapons medium missile attack boats, which are 1 or 2 shoting anything due to the missiles' actual balance.

Because you're a human player. The Vodyani can be number one with little effort. The United Empire and Lumeris you need to actively try to avoid first place, they're so good.

Again, you're fighting AI. They're not very adaptable. Yes, you might get an early lead on science. Or, you might get smacked down by a Vodyani player who prevents you from expanding. Or get swallowed up by UE. I've won with the Sophons. They're definitely playable, but again, they are the only negative scaling race in the game. I've just tried Horatio last time, and even they do better with more players. Sophons are the only ones who get worse.

My first several run throughs I played as Sophons.  I started a game as Vodyani a couple days ago, and man are they easy compared to Sophons.  I would even say the Sophons are pretty much garbage compared to how easy Vodyani is.

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

But how do you explain that from turn 5 to 67 actually I'm #1 in all scores but one (which is dust, I forgot the religious law) ?

In any of my games ?

Same for me, I was first in all category but one (Dust as well, I could not maintain religious party in senate ) at turn 60 with a confortable lead in science. 

I started with Vodyani and I had the impression they were quite slow, to the point where I will shift to something else (cravers maybe, just for fun)

Zakalwe wrote:

Kweel_Nakashyn wrote:

But how do you explain that from turn 5 to 67 actually I'm #1 in all scores but one (which is dust, I forgot the religious law) ?

In any of my games ?

Same for me, I was first in all category but one (Dust as well, I could not maintain religious party in senate ) at turn 60 with a confortable lead in science. 

I started with Vodyani and I had the impression they were quite slow, to the point where I will shift to something else (cravers maybe, just for fun)

This is strange, this is the exact thing that happened to me.

Turn 15-20 I could not generate enough essence for Ark #3, I had this one by turn 25-something because of pirates.

uriak wrote:

I've already talked a bit about how gameplay should convey the ideally convey the lore, and by this I mean it should encourage ways of playing that mirrors the universe of the game. In this regards, I'm puzzled by the current state of Sophons.

Lorewise and gameplay wise, they are the über scientists of the endless universe : geared toward progress at all cost. But this is not at all how I've felt playing them. I've read elsewhere that each faction would have a specific technology, but in my opinion, this is not enough in a game that tends to encourage players to expand in similar ways. So what is what I dub the sophon anti pattern ?

Their affinity is allowing them to find faster techs not yet researched, and their population bonus is +1 S/+3 S in cold. On itself it fits their theme, but this doesn't really work.

Sophons start on a industrial poor system, something they had to fix by modifying their boreal homeworld with +2I. But this is only the tip of the iceberg (  )

This affinity means they start out with a serious advantage when finding techs, but soon the player runs into a the proverbial industry wall. The way this game works, you need to increase your overral FIDSI output, and this is done with a blend of system colonization, total population and system upgrades. Simply put, the sophons science outruns by far their ability to upgrade and expand. Cold planets are by nature not very productive both in food and industry, meaning that if you want to actually expand and use your many techs unlocks, the sophons player is actively encouraged to settle in hotter and productive climates. This means that there science affinity roughtly translates into "I've got science covered, let's try to fix everything else". I've actually avoided settling into artic/snow and building the T2-T3 science upgrades because I was in dire need of industry, influence, dust... In the mean time I've found myself with plenty of T2-T3 modules that I could not afford.

So when playing Sophon, the logical way to play, is to ditch science focus and try to raise your other outputs, because, unlocking unnafordable techs is not useful on itself, this is what I call the anti pattern.

NB : I know currently science is accelerated, and this could change if all tech costs are significantly increased...

QUickly compare this to Lumeris/Horatio/UE : they can focus on their favorite resource, because dust can help them settle/buyout, influence gives powerful empire bonus and buyout for UE, and Horatio can quickly outgrow opponents. In all cases, they are encouraged to settle on planets that are already the most productive at the beginning.

Sophons are extremely strong late game, just be careful early game to not bumb into a hostile cravers or vodoyani race and you ll be fine.

Here I wrote a guide. It may give u some knowledge and explain you why Sophons arent that bad and why they are not in a need of a buff. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=863787410

Just Got my hat handed to me in MP

Has anybody else played Sophons on the latest update, in multi-player?  Couldn't compete with Vodyani expansion and super-hero (+60% shield absorption?!?!!  Really?)  Good to know that's a thing, so that I can prepare my fleets accordingly.

I just played a session prior to reading any of these suggestions, from Kweel and others, on how to boost the productivity.  But, even with those suggestions, I think it's fairly game-ending if one doesn't find jadonyx or at least an additional t1 strategic resource in proximity on the map. 

What scientist doesn't appreciate (& get inspired by) natural beauty experienced on a hike in a wooded area?

There is one recommendation I'd make for how to fix their home system from being such a low-production system, and that is to guarantee a forest planet in the home system.  Or, as someone  mentioned  above, make the unique planet truly unique by boosting its ind another +2/pop.

I've posted elsewhere in game design post on module slots on starting vessels per faction that I think the current exploration vessel for sophons doesn't make sense, lore-wise.  Shouldn't they have a number of slots for support equal to the riftborn? 

 https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space-2/forum/66-game-design/thread/24694-module-slots-on-starting-vessels-04-17