Back in Endless Legend, almost all of this stuff would have been Stage unlocks. Weapons, Defenses, and the EL equivalent of Support modules called Trinkets, which always had totally different effects from the Strategic trinkets to highlight a playstyle associated with Strategic types. Weapons were rolled together into the same techs, as were Defenses and Trinkets. You didn't have to research basic competence, because it's boring and would have left people too far behind those who went all in on Military techs.

In the Endless Space 2 beta, we didn't even need to research ships, they were an Era unlock before the Tech wheel was implemented, and to be quite frank the streamlining of such basic stuff- not to mention that there was more space for techs in earlier eras (unlike the wheel, which has to have fewer techs the earlier you go)- is why I still actually much prefer the old Era system that ES2 used in the beta. I get the benefit of being able to split the tech tree into four different paths, but I still quite dislike that it's a literal wheel because of how it rearranged everything when it could've been four separate columns, especially since it means we don't have Dust techs in Era 1 anymore even.

I just want to reverse some of the negative side effects of those changes, and it's pretty normal to streamline content as you add more, so I don't see what the big deal is. You can't just add techs indefinitely after all. I really wish I could still access the old tech system to compare and contrast all of this stuff for conversations like this, because there was a lot of good stuff in there.

So let's not do the "slippery slope" thing where simple is mistaken for simplistic.

IceGremlin wrote:

Done25 wrote:

That way a fleet of small attack ships can't turn this into Macross.

Hey hey, let's not be hasty, Macross is exactly what I signed up for!

But regarding the changes, I'm always one for streamlining. Too often, games give options rather than choices, like D&D or finding a good TV channel: a thousand options to take, but only about five real choices to make.

I actually would've gone much further, but I know most people would find my exact preferences for what to cut from the Military tree perhaps a bit too radical. For example, this change means that the crowdedness of the Military quadrant has only stayed about the same as before; it really began getting crowded a while ago, but with two Module focused updates now, it's gotten a lot more crowded very recently, seeing as between Squadrons and these new weapon modules, a whopping 14 new techs were added.

Personally, I would remove a lot of the new stuff just for the sake of space, but I understand we want the new weapons and Squadron techs all on the tech tree. I still think White Defenses definitely are gonna need to be streamlined if the weapons are, but we'll see how it goes.

No, no, as you can see even Amplitude thinks this way. Which given how well received their proposed idea is one has to wonder why limit the streamlining of the military quadrant to so few white techs. I mean why streamline it only partially when we can save so much more space by bundling the new rails and swarms white techs into the tiers as well. And while we are at it we can do the same with the white armor and shield techs - such a waste of space otherwise, really. But such streamlining, being the runaway success that it already is, shouldn't stop there - oh, no, as I've already ponted out previously we can do the same with the, let's face it, completely overblown number of planetary types that each require a separate tech - we can simply bundle them into tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3 planets and give them, for free, upon reaching the corresponging tier. This way nobody would have to be bothered with paying attention to what type a planet is, search for its tech in the overbloated techtree by zooming and scrolling and then having to wait for it to finish researching - it would be simple, pure and accessible! It's 2017 after all - who wants such huge research trees in this modern day and age? That would also free plenty of space in other quadrants too. Speaking of which - we can aslo bundle the advanced hull techs into the already streamlined military quadrant white tech as they are, technically speaking, also white techs. After all one should be consistent when it comes to streamlining - streamline one, streamline all!

Time and money allowing this streamlining process can be taken much further down the line as realistically we could streamline any and all techs by bundling them into the tiers - can you imagine how beatifully empty the research tree would get - it could fit, even fully zoomed in, on a single screen without any need of scrolling. But even that would not be the limit. We can simply streamline the tech tree out of the game, completely, by tying said tiers and all the already bundled techs into the game turns. Reach turn 30 and unlock tier 1 techs, en masse, without ever needing to bother yourself with a tech tree at all. Reach turn 80 and unlock all tier 2 techs. Turn 150 - tier 3. Turn 225 - all tier 4 techs. A thing of beauty! Amplitude can even call it the "Endless(tm) Streamline Update"!

Indeed, so much potential for streamlining is ahead of us. I practically salivate just thinking about it!

Ah, I almost fogot - such streamlining would also facilitate adding new techs into the future as well. After all if there is no tech tree to begin with one wouldn't need to agonize trying to decide where to fit said new techs and what to streamline into default tier tech bundles as to be able to fit them in - Amplitude can simply shove them into the tier tech lists, practically in under 15min, and be done with it.

Slashman wrote:

Yeah I need to add my voice to the notion that standard missiles ALWAYS getting targeted first by by flak may not be ideal. There should be some randomness so that there is a chance for standard missiles to get through while also allowing a chance that they don't get through so there is variation in the outcome and one missile type doesn't overpower the other in usefulness.

Indeed. Maybe make swarm missiles only usable in the "major" weapon slots for medium/large ships as a form of balance.

That way a fleet of small attack ships can't turn this into Macross.

If the damage of Swarm Missiles is set low enough compared to Standard Missiles, then I see no obvious issue having FLAK prioritize Swarm Missiles first, although I suppose this depends on whether or not they adjust FLAK effectiveness in this update as well.  As I understand it currently, ~2 FLAK modules of lower Tech level are able to completely nullify something akin to ~15 or so missile modules?  These numbers may be off, but the general principle works with any values.  If that remains unchanged, then giving up ~2 missile modules to nullify 2 modules worth of FLAK seems quite reasonable.  (This would be because 2 Swarm Missile Modules would fire roughly 16 Swarm Missiles, which would be the limit of how many missiles 2 FLAK modules can intercept).  Then, for example, if the enemy used 6 FLAK modules, you would need to give up ~6 modules to Swarm Missiles to nullify those 6 FLAK modules.  If anything I would think this system would still be in favor of FLAK, since the 2 FLAK modules can be on any ship in the Flotilla, not just the target ship, allowing the defending ships to specialize more and take advantage of boosters more.  Also consider that those 2 FLAK modules are not a waste, and have the capability to inflict reasonable damage at Medium range, and theoretically high damage at Close range (if Close range becomes relevant), while these hypothetical Swarm Missiles would only do sub-par damage at Long range, and presumably negligible damage at all other ranges.  Of course, if they reduce the effectiveness of FLAK, all of these numbers would need to change as well.

However, it also seems just as simple to give both Swarm & Standard missiles equal prioritization (and make sure they fire / travel at roughly the same speed, perhaps Swarm Missiles slightly sooner/faster), that way it is never an all-or-nothing situation.  It would be a gradient where the more Swarm Missile Modules you include, the more likely that more of your Standard Missiles will hit.  

E.g. Say Swarm missile Modules fire 8x Swarm Missiles per salvo, and Standard Missile Modules fire 1x Standard Missile per Salvo, and you have a ship with 9 Weapon Slots.  If you just use 9x Standard Missile Modules, you only fire 9 missiles, and every missile shot down has a 100% chance of being a Standard Missile.  If you instead include 8x Standard Missile Modules and 1x Swarm Missle Modules, you've now roughly doubled the total number of missiles you fire to 16x for FLAK to have to intercept, and now every missile which gets shot down has a ~50% chance of being a Standard Missile or Swarm Missile.  If you then change to 7x Standard Missile Modules and 2x Swarm Missile Modules, you now have 23x missiles for FLAK to intercept, and each one they intercept only has a 30% chance of being a Standard Missile.

In any case, still excited for the progress on this update and love reading all the cool ideas & suggestions people are having!

What if they focus swarm missile first ? What would be the downside ?

edit : ok that guy is able to travel in time. 

I'd wager the problem with flak targeting swarm missiles first would be that you can potentially completely nullify flak that way. Currently normal missiles do hefty damage on Long range, which coincidentally is also the best range orientation considering how the battles work, and their sole drawback is being hard-countered by kinetic weapon flak. Assuming swarm missiles act as fool-proof counter-flak you're removing normal missiles' only weakness, unless swarm missiles' damage is so low (by which I mean notably lower than normal Missiles, not to mention Beams and perhaps even Lasers at long range) that it evens out it because you're essentially "giving up" a weapon slot for counter-flak ability.

Though as you said if they provide no flak protection whatsoever and have regular damage dealing ability you'll just end up breaking out swarm missile-only ships when the opponent starts using flak, so perhaps mixed targeting priority would work best? Maybe have it scale somehow depending on the number of normal missile modules, swarm missile modules and opponent flak modules? If the fleet is fielding a lot of swarm missile modules they're more likely to distract flak away from the bigger missiles, though not completely unless they ridiculously outnumber opponent flak, and on the other end if there's only a few token swarm missile modules then flak is more likely to shoot down the actually damage dealing missiles.

As Xen0n just clarified above, having flak prefer standard missiles runs directly counter to the idea of overwhelming flak with swarm missiles. It should have no prejudice otherwise the swarm missiles become defunct, given we are assuming they will not be good enough to just use instead of standards.

If flak is smart enough to ignore swarm missiles, they don't fulfil their purpose, no?

Really excited about these upcoming changes!  Very interesting reading all the different ideas here as well.   However, I wonder if it is worth spending a little more time discussing what we think would be best regarding how Missiles/Swarm Missiles & FLAK will be working together?

Slashman wrote:

If Swarm missiles behave the way I think they should, then their ideal use should be to mix them with standard missiles to try to overwhelm FLAK so some of your big missiles get through. Just a caution to make sure that they don't do TOO much damage so people simply pick them instead of regular missiles. Overall though, I like the idea and the visuals.

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Kynrael wrote:

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@Slashman

That's a very good point! I'll see that the Standard Missiles are targeted first to avoid that kind of effect so it doesn't become the only meta possible.

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Just to make sure I understand, I believe Kynrael is suggesting that FLAK will prioritize targeting Standard Missiles above Swarm Missiles when both are being fired?  

I wonder if it might make more sense to have it the other way around, or at least give them equal priority?  And certainly wouldn't we want the Swarm Missiles to be faster/ fire earlier, so they get engaged by FLAK first?  From what I can tell, the idea is that Swarm Missiles will fire 6~8 smaller missles per attack, with a cumulative damage below a single Standard Missile.  The trade off is that with 6~8 missiles instead of just 1, the enemy needs 6~8 times as many FLAK modules in order to shoot down all your missiles, so it increases the chance some damage will get through.

I believe Slashman was making 2 points regarding this:

• It looks like the intended/ideal role for Swarm Missiles is not as a primary weapon (due to the reduced damage), but as a support weapon by having your fleets use a combination of Swarm & Standard Missiles.  The idea being, that if your fleet has 10x Swarm Missile Modules and 10x Standard Missile Modules, even if the enemy FLAK destroys half of your missiles, statistically it is likely that the FLAK mostly shot down your weaker Swarm Missiles, while your fewer, more powerful Standard Missiles are more likely to have survived.  In this case, your fleet would have fired 10x Standard Missiles and 60~80x Swarm Missiles, so if the enemy fleet has enough FLAk to shoot down, say, 40x Missiles, you still have a very good chance that all or most of your 10x powerful Standard Missiled will make it through.  The goal is that assuming most of those 10x Standard Missiles make it through, they will do more damage than having the corresponding amount of Swarm Missiles instead.
• Assuming this is the intended role & usage of Swarm Missiles, care must be taken not to make Swarm Missiles powerful enough that it is seen as a better strategy to just use 100% Swarm missiles in your fleet, instead of a mixture of Swarm & Standard Missiles.  Particularly since using a mixture requires research twice as many techs, so there needs to be a significant benefit to having a mixture of Swarm & Standard missiles vs. just Swarm Missiles.

However, if FLAK prioritizes Standard Missiles first, would that not cause the optimal choice to always be using 100% Swarm Missiles and never any Standard Missiles mixed in?  If FLAK prioritized Standard first, then assuming the enemy fleet has enough Flak to shoot down 40x missiles, even if my fleet fires 10x Standard missiles and 60~80x Swarm missiles, all 10 of those standard missiles are guarantted to get shot down, along with 30 of the Swarm Missiles, allowing only 30x~50x Swarm Missile to hit.  The optimal choice would then be, rather than 10x Standard Missile Modules and 10x Swarm Missile Modules, install 20x Swarm Missile Modules, in order to fire 120~160x Swarm Missiles, and then only 40x of them get shot down by Flak, allowing 80~120x to hit, giving me more than double the damage compared to using 10x Swarm and 10x Standard missiles.

In this case, there would not only be no benefit to mixing Standard Missiles with Swarm Missiles, there would actually be a significant disadvantage to doing so.

@Naskoni : About vanilla weapons, i personnaly prefer them as "free" when you unlock a tier, because they were basicly the last thing i wanted to unlock before (made a feedback about this in i dont remember what topic) : too weak to be worth searched for, not enough strong to beat strategic resources related weapons. So, they are still there, but you can use them anytime as emergency weapons. I find this good. Im glad their are replaced by the new strongs weapons, it make the left side of the military tree way more interesting. If you found a good utility about those weapons, so was used to use it in your decision making, i perfectly understand your point. But still, they are replaced with other stuff, so the tree is not going more "dumb", no ?

About the second point, it will depend a lot of stats and numbers. If swarm make enough damage, it's sure they will overcome missiles in any situations, and it will be bed. But they look like an ultility weapon more than a damage dealer weapon. They are kinda joined by slugs now, that are strong as a utility, but weaker than rail gun as a damage dealer. By the way, their ability to destroy a ton of missile with almost no flaks are designated as a huge issue, and will be fixed anyway, with this patch, I guess. So, you will need a fair amount of flaks to protect yourself against missiles. Utility weapons have to stay utilities, so "weaker" without combination with damaging weapons. They have to not be autnomous, in a sort of way. But we need to play the game to see if it's the case ^^

Naskoni wrote:

As for parer-stuff-scissors - "conventional" missles are completely pointless as long as even one enemy ship has flak, which everybody has access to by default. There is no risk as there is no point to go for missles in the first place. If you do take the risk and go for missles, currently even a couple of small ships with flak will counter several carriers with missles by themselves, and one can respec said small ships by the time your fleet arrives at any system that is 2 turns or more away.

As far as I know the fact that flak is far too effective at the moment has been pointed out more than one time by now. I always thought the new weapons and the restructured tech tree would of course be accompanied by another rebalance of the existing weapons.