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Still glaring balancing issues with the game (Endless diff 100 turns as Cravers)

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 4:07:51 PM


Guys, I am afraid I am dealing with Normal level players here.

You get the basic mechanics, sure.

The core problem is that Cravers are currently not being what they are supposed to be, and it arises when you play Endless, and when you play it effectively. 

By which I mean you produce at LEAST 6k science by turn 60 and 1st in every victory condition besides Economic since Doria will always, always beat you to it.


So please, unless you are ready to discuss the deep mechanics of Endless Difficulty and how to actually rush things, please. 

How can you not differentiate playing in a mode puts you in a very difficult situation between the intended gameplay and blame the game design -of all things- and ranting with much zealous when people giving you good advice. You just find out lots of things you never even heard of and trying to play on the hardest difficulty?


Not to mention you are trying to fight the AI (who gains much with every turn you can ever have) and your plan is to lay back, grow and when you think you have the edge(?!) you are planning to strike? And your choice of faction to do this is Cravers?  Good luck.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 1:10:23 PM

I sense a lot of hatrred and rage from fanboys, but okay, back to original points.


1) Wars and alliances

The Cravers are supposed to conquer worlds and expand, rapidly so. Correct? If they stay sitting on their worlds, they just deplete them and choke. Correct?

So please explain to me, how it is correct to 1 - make them abide by the SAME expansion disapproval rules, like everyone else and 2 - how are they supposed to overcome their expansion unhappiness with Jingoist law giving puny +15 bonus per war if you keep only with 1-2 factions at war? 

To keep up even with basic expansion of 8 systems for the large galaxy, and settle shit worlds like Lava/Toxic etc you already use up all your happiness. We didn't even start conquering and adding planets ovee the disapproval limit! Naturally your scouts are trying to find each and every minor civ just to declare war on them to get back on happiness train. And hey, guess what, by turns 20-30 most of them are assimilated and you loose your Jingoist happiness at alarming rate, back to Mutinous. The only options you have is switching to Religious or Ecology with their OP verdict, which only highlights the point of Cravers approval mechanic disfunctional and requiring work.

Late game research gives you a building to cover this, +1happiness per NUMBER of ships. But hey dear devs, it is late game, I use Carriers now, so my NUMBER of ships is just 4-5 per fleet! so this building is not doing jack-all for me! This should be per CP and not per amount of ships.


The common eXpand eXploit etc garbage of 4x game works perfectly. For ANY other race, but not the Cravers.

And if you keep declaring war on everything just to keep up with your conquest/expansion - yes, the end result is entire galaxy united against you.

Craver gameplay mechanic is broken and contradicting itself. Please prove me otherwise.


How do I propose to fix it?

Hard to say, considering how much production you have to put into a system, so vacating a depleted system is still a hit on your economy. At the very least, the core Craver mechanic should include consumption of worlds and vacating them, literally leaving them empty. Which means, in reality, their core mechanic is more similar to Vodyani sucking out the planets and moving on. So, this is the general design breach to fix.


2) Fleet speeds and useless FLAG hero ships

Guys, if you need to add 5 support-class ships to your fleet to keep it moving at proper speed - no, it does not mean it is working correct. First of all, these ship types are the first ones targeted. You will lose them all after 2-3 fights and will be reduced back to a crawl. Tried and tested. I set out a 12CP strong fleet with 4 Supportships carrying speed mods, in just 3 fights I have 0 of them and my fleet speed is back to 6 (2 base 4 engine), which is a joke.

Not to mention that if you stack your support sheeps with only speed boosting mods, it means they are 1 - not carrying siege mods 2 - not carrying repair mods to repair themself since they are being targeted 3 - not carrying ANY of the other mids you might want to support your fleet. No, al they do is carry speed mods. That is wrong, and broken. Please prove me otherwise.


How do I propose to fix it?

Change 1 defense slot on FLAG hero ship to Defense/Support slot, so you can either fit engine , a probe, or a defensive mod there. Solved.

Add a skill for basic fleet speed increase to Guardian, +2 speed is already fine. Seekers can keep their bonus +free movement buff, but give SOMETHING to Guardians so they can actually deliver their fleets on time, and not in 20 turns.

Allow to install fleet speed mods on hero ships as an option.

Basically, let us tune WHO will carry our buffs, instead of limiting us to including support ships, which also act as a nuke sponge for the fleet.


3) Useless hero skills

I have said that most useless and broken hero skills are, namely, last two picks in Universal skill tree, 1 - reduce hero upkeep by 25% 2 - remove hero upkeep cost. They literally contradict themself, not to mention they are completely useless and not worth the skill point.

I also noted that if you are trying to build a pure Admiral hero, at some point you are forced to take planet/system improvement skills to move further down the skill tree. Which means, the skill paths are broken and need work.


How do I propose to fix it?

Rework the last 2 skills blocks in Universal tree from the ground.

Make sure the hero can pick relevant skills for chosen patch - e.g. Governor/Admiral/Explorer etc and not be forced to pick crap fillers. It makes it UNFUN, and we play the game for FUN.


4) AI not building fleets

I play with pirates turned off, simply because AI cannot deal with them, not on Endless difficulty. Which means, AI still needs work.

By turn 40-60 all AI has on endless difficulty is fleets of 1 mid-size ship and 1 small attacker. Or fleets of 4 small attackers. Which is a joke.


How do I propose to fix it?

Make sure AI pays attention to military research, get more fleet cap faster. Understans the value of special Titanium/etc weapons. By this logic, I should NEVER see Titanium etc in the market until late game, which is correct.


5) Broken quests

I am NOT using any mods and never plan to, I always play the game exactly as made by developers. I have received a quest which reqired me to produce 600+ production and 500+ science in one system IN A TURN. It is impossible to complete with Cravers, ever, since the system is depleted.


How do I propose to fix it?

Never ever ask to produce something in a system in ONE turn for Cravers unless you understand the system is depleted and how much it can actually produce.


6) Useless trade companies

So we agree that trade companies are useless? The investment you put into them is never going to pay off. If you cannot do the basic math behind it, tough luck. Back to drawing board then?


How do I propose to fix it?

They should give passive bonuses from start, and meaningful ones. Having a mid-game trade company on turn 70 across entire galaxy from HQ making me 100 dust and 10 science, when I make 3k dust and 4k science is a joke. Needs heavy balancing according to current turn.


Can we please keep the fanboyism raging down a bit, and take an actual sober look at state of things?

Thank you.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 1:35:28 PM
Ansa wrote:

I sense a lot of hatrred and rage from fanboys, but okay, back to original points.


1) Wars and alliances

The Cravers are supposed to conquer worlds and expand, rapidly so. Correct? If they stay sitting on their worlds, they just deplete them and choke. Correct?

So please explain to me, how it is correct to 1 - make them abidy by the SAME expansion disapproval rules, like everyone else and 2 - how are they supposed to overcome their expansion with Jingoist law giving puny +15 bonus per war if you keep only with 1-2 factions at war?

The common eXpand eXploit etc garbage of 4x game works perfectly. For ANY other race, but not the Cravers.

And if you keep declaring war on everything just to keep up with your conquest/expansion - yes, the end result is entire galaxy united against you.

This mechanic is plain broken. Please prove me otherwise.


2) Fleet speeds and useless FLAG hero ships

Guys, if you need to add 5 support-class ships to your fleet to keep it moving at proper speed - no, it does not mean it is working correct. First of all, these ship types are the first ones targeted. You will lose them all after 2-3 fights and will be reduced back to a crawl. Tried and tested. I set out a 12CP strong fleet with 4 Supportships carrying speed mods, in just 3 fights I have 0 of them and my fleet speed is back to 6 (2 base 4 engine), which is a joke.

Not to mention that if you stack your support sheeps with only speed boosting mods, it means they are 1 - not carrying siege mods 2 - not carrying repair mods to repair themself since they are being targeted 3 - not carrying ANY of the other mids you might want to support your fleet. No, al they do is carry speed mods. That is wrong, and broken. Please prove me otherwise.


3) I have said that most useless and broken hero skills are, namely, last two picks in Universal skill tree, 1 - reduce hero upkeep by 25% 2 - remove hero upkeep cost. They literally contradict themself.


4) I play with pirates turned off, simply because AI cannot deal with them, not on Endless difficulty. Which means, AI still needs work.


5) I am not using any mods and never plan to, I always play the game exactly as made by developers. I have received a quest which reqired me to produce 600+ production and 500+ science in one system IN A TURN. It is impossible to complete with Cravers, ever, since the system is depleted.


6) So we agree that trade companies are useless? Back to drawing board then.


Can we please keep the fanboyism raging down a bit, and take an actual sober look at state of things?

Thank you.

Calling people 'fanboys' doesn't really help your case. Anyway.

1) Yes, you are supposed to expand pretty fast as Cravers, They also have many ways to counteract the expansion disapproval that comes with this. The first is by declaring war on minor factions which gives you the same +15 approval without the threat of being attacked on your own worlds. The second, as you've done, is warring with major factions, but you really don't need to declare war on all of them. Finally the militarist law Us and Them gives you +20 for every homeworld you own (including your own). Finally you have Feeding Pits which gives you +20 for 10 turns, although this should be a last resort. So I don't really see what about the mechanic is plain broken. You should also try to limit your depletion by getting at least 2 minor pops growing on all of your systems.

2) How fast do you really want your fleets? As I've said before, the best engine is +6. With two of them on your ships, you are reaching speeds of +14. That's more than enough to travel node to node every turn. You don't need 5 speed support ships. Just one that's dedicated to the role. If you lose it, make another one, and send it to the fleet. Siege modules are overrated, and should only really be used if you are running up against manpower problems. You can take systems (especially as Cravers) in the same amount of time using invasion so long as you keep your troops upgraded. Use tanks once you get them, and switch back to a balanced troop composition once your opponents start using air units.

3) The last two skills are different in that one affects being on a fleet, and the other affects being a governor. This is the same way skills were balanced in ES1, which you say was 'balanced perfectly'.

4) Try turning them on. The AI handles them just fine nowadays.

5) I've never had any problems with that quest. It really sounds like you haven't gone for a balanced tech path. That level of industry and science is not a whole lot in the later game. Also, some quests are just going to be uncompleteable due to the game situation. This isn't really a problem. The same was true in Endless Legend.

6) No one else said trade companies are useless. They are good for peaceful alliances. They are not the best for Cravers. Not every tech will be as important for every faction due to asymmetry.

Here are the results of my last Craver game, as proof that I'm not making this up. This was played on colossal galaxy size about a week ago. I think they are honestly the strongest faction in the game when played well:

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 2:14:11 PM
Ansa wrote:

I sense a lot of hatrred and rage from fanboys, but okay, back to original points.


[...]


Can we please keep the fanboyism raging down a bit, and take an actual sober look at state of things?

Thank you.

Can you please keep the flaming and insulting down a bit and take an actual sober look at your complains, the games state and the answers you received from the community?


Many have tried to address your issues in a friendly manner and pointed out solutions to them or offered a different point of view. Despite the tone you choose to spell your complains. Now declaring them as faneboys and waving aside their arguments therefore does not really help the discussion. Nor can anything useful for the games improvement come out of it.


PS: I first had the intention to write something to address your points directly, but this has been done before by others. So why repeat it? But I can't stand the 'I am right and everybody disagreeing with me is a fanboy' attitude.

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 2:27:06 PM
Ansa wrote:

I sense a lot of hatrred and rage from fanboys, but okay, back to original points.

I sense a lot of rage coming from a train of thoughts crushing into the reality, shattering the misknowledge.




1) Wars and alliances

The Cravers are supposed to conquer worlds and expand, rapidly so. Correct? If they stay sitting on their worlds, they just deplete them and choke. Correct?

This is how should you play, yes. Let's see If you continue to try to find some tools to back this strategy. Keywords are rapidly & expand.



So please explain to me, how it is correct to 1 - make them abide by the SAME expansion disapproval rules, like everyone else and 2 - how are they supposed to overcome their expansion unhappiness with Jingoist law giving puny +15 bonus per war if you keep only with 1-2 factions at war? 

Why same? Because even you admitted the rules has to force you to expand in a rapidly fasion. How do you ask? Besides the laws, governors, buildings and faction unique mechanics like feeding pits, you have to consume the planets (rapidly) and move on(expand) to the next one in order to keep a tap to the system limit you can have. This requires planning and strategy and this is totally doable.


I'll stop quoting now because you keep going on and on about same things in different sentences but as a Craver enthusiastic myself (stated to add this faction to my arsenal, recently).


-As Cravers, you should never try to go to tall empire and be mindful of your borders. Think of this as a bacteria in the water. As you move towards somewhere be sure to deplete your planets the opposite direction. 

-Be sure to have spaceport many populations as you for you to fill the planets and consume them faster.

-Make some feeding planets for your slaves and transport them for feeding pit in order to keep the happiness checked. 

-Cravers is a rush faction. It's not an empire building faction. That's why the purpose of this faction is to change up the common playstyle. 

-Always think of your first correct sentence when trying for cravers and approach different this time "The Cravers are supposed to conquer worlds and expand, rapidly so. Correct? If they stay sitting on their worlds, they just deplete them and choke. Correct?"


I'm not against for people trying to make a point passionately, even they lack the necessary experience to fully make one but If you do you better come prepared or be ready to take the hit.



Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 2:52:18 PM
Ansa wrote:

1) Wars and alliances

The Cravers are supposed to conquer worlds and expand, rapidly so. Correct? If they stay sitting on their worlds, they just deplete them and choke. Correct?

So please explain to me, how it is correct to 1 - make them abide by the SAME expansion disapproval rules, like everyone else and 2 - how are they supposed to overcome their expansion unhappiness with Jingoist law giving puny +15 bonus per war if you keep only with 1-2 factions at war? 

You know you can also just use spaceport to move all your population to a new system as the current one is getting fully depleted and then vacate the now empty system?


Another strategy is to just rush the colony upgrades (require some T4 techs though) with the luxury resources you can produce in large quantities and just upgrade the system to lv4 and put an autonomous administration on it to expand your cap. Sure the bonus from the luxury ressources won't be that great but that's not the point anyway, once the system is depleted it will just sustain itself (be sure to produce enough food) and produce slowly dust, science, manpower and fleet without costing you anything.


A last strategy is to go religious and praise Craver Jesus to use the force content law. This require a decent influence production but nothing too hard in itself.


So here you go, 3 ways to play with the cravers affinity and I'm sure there are others.

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 3:24:42 PM

Wait, what? My OP was anything but insulting. If there is bad coding, I call it what it is - bad coding, bad design. Bad and contradictive skills for heroes, etc.

The game keeps crashing after playing 2-3 hours because of obscene memory leaks still - am I supposed to praise Allakh/devs/who? It's bad coding.

And yes, when people spam nonsentical insults at me for posting anything which is not praise to their beloved company, this is exactly what is called "fanboyism".

Just to clarify - not intending to insult anyone. But I will call shit design work and decisions "shit" when it is so. If you want to stay politically correct to everything, you should probably watch Oprah instead of playing strategy games.


Back on topic.


So you suggest as a Craver for me to use the current implementation and actually try to vacate the built-up worlds and try to spaceport my pops to new ones? Correct?

So, basically, if I follow this strategy, I am constantly stuck building stuff and not actually reaping my rewards. How is that correct? 

How is that anywhere near effective next, to, say, Empire, which builds up their worlds to full and then have ALL their systems terraformed into colder and running Planet Cracker for 25% prod into science, and 2-3 all-Hot industry systems with industry Governors spamming ships ships ships?? 

You will not stand a chance against Empire like that, since they are both spearheading science and spamming latest-tech fleets faster than you can chew through them.


Guys, I am afraid I am dealing with Normal level players here.

You get the basic mechanics, sure.

The core problem is that Cravers are currently not being what they are supposed to be, and it arises when you play Endless, and when you play it effectively. 

By which I mean you produce at LEAST 6k science by turn 60 and 1st in every victory condition besides Economic since Doria will always, always beat you to it.


So please, unless you are ready to discuss the deep mechanics of Endless Difficulty and how to actually rush things, please...

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 4:02:04 PM

OP, mate, if you're going to open a detailed rant post with loaded language is it any surprise you get a strong reaction back? An essential skill of writing is that you have to have an understanding of your audiance and context. This very specific forums has fostered a collaborative environment between a number of regular players and developers, and over time I've seen this tranlsate into improvements in the game. This relationship is predicated on suscinct and respectful (often technical language), so going in blazing and labelling things 'shit' is not going to get you very far here. I'm not going to even touch on some other rhetorical 'flourishes' that you have used, as I think you are wasting everyone's time with this approach.


I think you should engage more with some of the detailed posts that challenge your assertions, demonstrate you have the capacity to reflect on your views as absolute certainty can be blinding, and perhaps using more evidence such as visual aides in order to get whatever point it is you want to make. This is meant as genuine advice, and I hope the tenor of the conversation improves from hereout.

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 4:04:53 PM

Can we drop the superfluous ad hominem attacks from this thread?


Ansa, I believe many here felt uncomfortable with the way you phrase your criticism, regardless of its validity. Framing disagreement as fanaticism doesn't lend any weight to your points, especially when most of the people who took the time to reply to you specified they found your tone problematic, more than whatever disagreement they might have with the message itself.


I would strongly advise dropping the mentions of "fanboy" and the (for a lack of a better word) pissing contest. Please don't assume people's skill levels or reasoning on a certain topic are inferior to yours because they differ from your own line of reasoning.


Thanks.



EDIT: TheFunMachine beat me to it, darn.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 12:19:28 PM

Wow. There are lots and lots of things you don't know about yet you playing on endless difficulty? Strange or difficult to believe. 


Ansa wrote:


1) Empire management numbers are empirical and impossible to guess. 


- Will settling this colony put my food into negative? No? I have no idea. Yes, maybe a warning screen would pop up but I don't see any urgency in it.

- Why food is taken from my homeworld to colonize, when I have colony right next to it, overflowing with food? No idea. You can change when you select the colony. Just look left.

- How many colonies I can settle before expansion disapproval hits? I have no idea. You can, just select the first UI option.

- Why Food % to Manpower buildings bring my systems into starving and pops running away? If there is not enough food to feed the pops, stop slamming it into manpower then? You can think this as vise verse situation also. Why spamming units If you don't have enough food for you pop?


2) Economic victory is still broken


- As a Craver, naturally, I declare war on anything that moves, to keep the happiness bonus from Jingoist Paradise law.

- Just a dozen turns later I find entire galaxy united in an alliance against me. They seem to have no issues with each other whatsoever, but as soon as they see me - they immediately ally. Your problem is that AI is grouping up to kill the warmonger "monster" race lurking in the galaxy? Really?


- A few more dosen turns later, by turn 80 normal speed Endless difficulty, while busy trashing their puny fleets with my stacks of Queen carriers, I get the message "Hey man, nice game and all, but this alliance is close to economic victory, cya!". Complete disbalance. Especally lame that an alliance can work together towards a victory - there is no way a single empire can outpace that or rush enemy down. Especially in 80 turns. Not with the current fleet speeds (more below).

- Have to disable both score and economic victories now until they fixed (when?)  ...seriusly. You are mad at the AI for trying to defend themselfs againts a warmonger. This is a s-t-r-a-t-e-g-y game use different strategy If this doesn't work for you. If you keep want to hit your self to wall but expeting different result, thats on you.



3) Fleets are too slow. And non-seeker Admirals are useless.


- the actual fighter heroes, the Guardians, flying FLAG ships, that have onl2 2 (TWO) support slots. So if they fit 2 engines, they cannot fit probes, which are constantly required here and there. If you were really worried about fleet speeds, you wouldn't wan't to spend 2 probes of movement point in later game senarios. 

- On top of that, Guardian heroes do not give any speed bonuses to fleets, ever. So, they are eaither stuck with 2 engines and no probes, or 1 engine and probes, which is slower than 2 engines you fit on ships. I'll give you another strategy if you are concerned about not having enough vision. Make scouting fleets.


As of right now, Admirals are considered to be utterly useless - you always get more bang for your buck, by putting a Governor into the planet.

Why? Absoluty not true; you won't just put a governor and forgot about it for 200 turns. You always want to improve your strategy by switching them to different positions to where its needed.

Admirals have nothing besides dubious skills like increase some fleet damage/health here and there, sometimes add move points. All of that is taken care by fitting mods already. Nothing besides adding +40% more damage or +40% to max hp? Are you hearing yourself? 

...


I'm going to stop now because the more I read and try to comment on this -thoughts. More I believe this would be very futile because it's very clear that you are not cut off to be strategy gamer. Yet alone commenting on game design; this writing is absolutely a drivel to me.


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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 4:32:20 PM
Ansa wrote:

Wait, what? My OP was anything but insulting. If there is bad coding, I call it what it is - bad coding, bad design. Bad and contradictive skills for heroes, etc.

The game keeps crashing after playing 2-3 hours because of obscene memory leaks still - am I supposed to praise Allakh/devs/who? It's bad coding.

And yes, when people spam nonsentical insults at me for posting anything which is not praise to their beloved company, this is exactly what is called "fanboyism".

Just to clarify - not intending to insult anyone. But I will call shit design work and decisions "shit" when it is so. If you want to stay politically correct to everything, you should probably watch Oprah instead of playing strategy games.


Back on topic.


So you suggest as a Craver for me to use the current implementation and actually try to vacate the built-up worlds and try to spaceport my pops to new ones? Correct?

So, basically, if I follow this strategy, I am constantly stuck building stuff and not actually reaping my rewards. How is that correct? 

How is that anywhere near effective next, to, say, Empire, which builds up their worlds to full and then have ALL their systems terraformed into colder and running Planet Cracker for 25% prod into science, and 2-3 all-Hot industry systems with industry Governors spamming ships ships ships?? 

You will not stand a chance against Empire like that, since they are both spearheading science and spamming latest-tech fleets faster than you can chew through them.


Guys, I am afraid I am dealing with Normal level players here.

You get the basic mechanics, sure.

The core problem is that Cravers are currently not being what they are supposed to be, and it arises when you play Endless, and when you play it effectively. 

By which I mean you produce at LEAST 6k science by turn 60 and 1st in every victory condition besides Economic since Doria will always, always beat you to it.


So please, unless you are ready to discuss the deep mechanics of Endless Difficulty and how to actually rush things, please...

I posted a screenshot of an Endless difficulty victory with Cravers at turn 132 on normal speed to show that I wasn't talking rubbish. I don't play on any difficulty other than Endless. I've tried to give you constructive reasons as to why some of your criticisms are unwarranted, gone into some of the more advanced mechanics specific to Cravers, and I've asked people not to flame you as it helps no one, and yet you've come back with this kind of retort. So I think I've done all I can on this thread. So I'm out. 

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 4:54:50 PM
Ansa wrote:


So you suggest as a Craver for me to use the current implementation and actually try to vacate the built-up worlds and try to spaceport my pops to new ones? Correct?

So, basically, if I follow this strategy, I am constantly stuck building stuff and not actually reaping my rewards. How is that correct? 

How is that anywhere near effective next, to, say, Empire, which builds up their worlds to full and then have ALL their systems terraformed into colder and running Planet Cracker for 25% prod into science, and 2-3 all-Hot industry systems with industry Governors spamming ships ships ships?? 

You will not stand a chance against Empire like that, since they are both spearheading science and spamming latest-tech fleets faster than you can chew through them.


Guys, I am afraid I am dealing with Normal level players here.

You get the basic mechanics, sure.

The core problem is that Cravers are currently not being what they are supposed to be, and it arises when you play Endless, and when you play it effectively. 

By which I mean you produce at LEAST 6k science by turn 60 and 1st in every victory condition besides Economic since Doria will always, always beat you to it.


So please, unless you are ready to discuss the deep mechanics of Endless Difficulty and how to actually rush things, please...

Well that's one of the possibility and I think that would be the intended one for normal game. I also gave you 2 others that work perfectly fine on endless. And BTW the crux of this strategy is that there is no build-up world to vacate since you almost don't build up your world, your goal with this is to conquer build-up world, not build them, suck them dry with the 150% FIDSI and using that to build up your fleet for the next world and then move on.


And if you compare the first strategy to someone who has terraformed their world you have already lost since terraforming doesn't come until mid-late game with a great cost in industry and by that point you should either have snowballed out of control (it's not like you get 150% FIDS for an insane early game) or be implementing another strategy.


Craver are about snowballing out of controll, not sitting back, terraforming and building a strong empire for the late-game. And yes you will be at a disadvantage in a big galaxy since unlike science or eco that can work by playing tall you have to play wide.

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7 years ago
Jan 24, 2018, 9:08:53 AM
Frogsquadron wrote:

Can we drop the superfluous ad hominem attacks from this thread?


Ansa, I believe many here felt uncomfortable with the way you phrase your criticism, regardless of its validity. Framing disagreement as fanaticism doesn't lend any weight to your points, especially when most of the people who took the time to reply to you specified they found your tone problematic, more than whatever disagreement they might have with the message itself.


I would strongly advise dropping the mentions of "fanboy" and the (for a lack of a better word) pissing contest. Please don't assume people's skill levels or reasoning on a certain topic are inferior to yours because they differ from your own line of reasoning.


Thanks.



EDIT: TheFunMachine beat me to it, darn.

Yeah, understood sorry Frog.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 24, 2018, 9:12:03 AM
C0ldSn4p wrote:
Ansa wrote:


So you suggest as a Craver for me to use the current implementation and actually try to vacate the built-up worlds and try to spaceport my pops to new ones? Correct?

So, basically, if I follow this strategy, I am constantly stuck building stuff and not actually reaping my rewards. How is that correct? 

How is that anywhere near effective next, to, say, Empire, which builds up their worlds to full and then have ALL their systems terraformed into colder and running Planet Cracker for 25% prod into science, and 2-3 all-Hot industry systems with industry Governors spamming ships ships ships?? 

You will not stand a chance against Empire like that, since they are both spearheading science and spamming latest-tech fleets faster than you can chew through them.


Guys, I am afraid I am dealing with Normal level players here.

You get the basic mechanics, sure.

The core problem is that Cravers are currently not being what they are supposed to be, and it arises when you play Endless, and when you play it effectively. 

By which I mean you produce at LEAST 6k science by turn 60 and 1st in every victory condition besides Economic since Doria will always, always beat you to it.


So please, unless you are ready to discuss the deep mechanics of Endless Difficulty and how to actually rush things, please...

Well that's one of the possibility and I think that would be the intended one for normal game. I also gave you 2 others that work perfectly fine on endless. And BTW the crux of this strategy is that there is no build-up world to vacate since you almost don't build up your world, your goal with this is to conquer build-up world, not build them, suck them dry with the 150% FIDSI and using that to build up your fleet for the next world and then move on.


And if you compare the first strategy to someone who has terraformed their world you have already lost since terraforming doesn't come until mid-late game with a great cost in industry and by that point you should either have snowballed out of control (it's not like you get 150% FIDS for an insane early game) or be implementing another strategy.


Craver are about snowballing out of controll, not sitting back, terraforming and building a strong empire for the late-game. And yes you will be at a disadvantage in a big galaxy since unlike science or eco that can work by playing tall you have to play wide.

Not entirely true man.

I am terraforming my hot worlds at turns 60-70 into something more comfy and giving me more science because by this time the system has built literally everything it ever needed.

The only meaningful buildings left are Dark matter/Adamantium science labs, but no way in hell I am building those because all my Dark matter and Adamantian is going into ships and weapons.


Granted - it is just a waste of PlanetCracker turns to terraform anything, but if I feel I am very far ahead, hey why not.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 24, 2018, 9:28:58 AM
ruzen wrote:


Guys, I am afraid I am dealing with Normal level players here.

You get the basic mechanics, sure.

The core problem is that Cravers are currently not being what they are supposed to be, and it arises when you play Endless, and when you play it effectively. 

By which I mean you produce at LEAST 6k science by turn 60 and 1st in every victory condition besides Economic since Doria will always, always beat you to it.


So please, unless you are ready to discuss the deep mechanics of Endless Difficulty and how to actually rush things, please. 

How can you not differentiate playing in a mode puts you in a very difficult situation between the intended gameplay and blame the game design -of all things- and ranting with much zealous when people giving you good advice. You just find out lots of things you never even heard of and trying to play on the hardest difficulty?


Not to mention you are trying to fight the AI (who gains much with every turn you can ever have) and your plan is to lay back, grow and when you think you have the edge(?!) you are planning to strike? And your choice of faction to do this is Cravers?  Good luck.

Man, you may be amazed, but Religious Autocracy Cravers will own the galaxy before you know it.


Since you simply do not care about your expansion approval and approval in general - you never ever declary war on anyone. Righteous Fury is your friend.

AIs get annoyed, they scream at you, they clench their tiny fists and stomp their tiny feet - but they cannot do anything, because you are NOT AT WAR with them :-)

You literally take their stuff under their nose, invade what you want and there is NOTHING they can do about it, because there is no Force Truce in Cold War...


So you just happily expand and settle everything on sight. 

You never attack Minor Civs - nonono, you woo the minor civs with inluence, make them your buddies, and you get stuff and science from them, and obtain their planets in a few turns, only increasing your territory.  Of course as soon as you get a Craver pop on those planets, you Feeding Pits and turn all their pops to paste to grow quicker :-)


I am really uncomfortable posting that here tbh, because next thing I get is Frog nerfing the hell out of my cheese instead of fixing the stuff I was poiting out, but whatever.

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 24, 2018, 10:30:32 AM

Oh I'm not the one wielding the nerf bat, I'm more of a banhammer person myself (although, really, I prefer the pen to the sword, especially if the pen has a pointy bit).


I think we'd all be curious to see a couple of your saves at various states of progress, just to get an idea.

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7 years ago
Jan 25, 2018, 12:23:34 PM
Frogsquadron wrote:

Oh I'm not the one wielding the nerf bat, I'm more of a banhammer person myself (although, really, I prefer the pen to the sword, especially if the pen has a pointy bit).


I think we'd all be curious to see a couple of your saves at various states of progress, just to get an idea.

Noted :-)


Anyway, unfortunately I forgot to remove the limit on my savegames, so only 20 last ones are kept


- Religious Autocracy Cravers

- I always ignore Endless Park because I will be Content

- The start was amazing - I had several 5-planet systems to settle next to me, and they bloomed in lategame

- Sophons were annoying as hell, I had to constantly fight them for distant outposts. Turned out their capital was really close, so that's why.

- I added a bunch of systems from Minor Civs, but now it is hard to say what was what since I ate them all. They were yummy. 

- In general, I tend to settle what I can, stay put on my worlds and push science to biggest ships with best hulls and titanium weapons. I rarely find early rushes worth it, still it's a viable option with t2 hulls. I usually tend to wait for Carriers if I got Antimatter and Adamantian on my worlds, and I "rush" things down with t2 hulls if I don't have any.


Turn 89

- I have 16 systems now

- Took Sophons capital with my basic fleet before even Carriers came out

- All non-essential systems are done with basic constructions and only Planet Cracking

- The best hot system I have with Counselor hero is spamming titanium-packed Carriers, 2 turns per each, in preparation to siege enemy Capitals. I have several Guardian ready to lead them


Turn 108

- Sophons are reduced to rubble

- Riftborn gave a good fight at their homeworld, almost took down my tank Guard but 3 Carriers with Titanium slugs just nuke everything too fast. 

- Doria declared war on me, but she is having it brought to her capital doorstep very soon - trying to pinpoint her capital location with probes, clearing cockroaches on the way

- Found Horatio capital and sieging it

- My production system got depleted after spamming 3 full fleets of Carriers, setting up a new system to spam 2 more fleets to check how Empire and Vodyani are doing


Note - trying to bring support ship with fleet blows, because 3 carriers + 1 tank support is weaker than 4 carriers. Next time I just fit 2 engines on the ships and use Seeker heroes instead of Guardians. Which brings us back to my previous rant - Guardians FLAG ship blows because if you fit 2 engines you cannot fit probes. In general, adding any ship to the flotila which is nto Carrier at this point is worthless - they die like fruit flies, and I cannot afford that balls-deep in enemy territory.


Another note - diplomacy notifications sometimes are too much. Ways too much. AI spams me like crazy. And even more annoying, missclicking can lead to your Empire loosing 30% of all feeds, insane.


Last note - We cannot seem to pick who will be our Great Leader. When I got Reyarin, he immeditealy became the leader of Religious party. naturally, I put some skills into him for senator since he was highest level.

Next thing - I get a Religious guardian hired, level 3, and he immediately replaced my high-level Senator Reyarin, I lost all buffs I was putting skill points for on Reyarin.

Need to fix this somehow, at the very least let us pick which one of our heroes will lead the party.


BUG - AI can buyout systems you just captured with influence. You take system, and they can buy it back with influence in just a few turns after. First of all, need to re-capture it again - and the system is put to permanent "Mutinous" with 50 approval but Mutinous debuffs, even with Saints and SInners law. Need to reset and re-apply the Saints law to fix this.

And the influence buyout needs some cooldown, especially on recently captured systems, otherwise this is a broken circle - I capture it, they buy it back immedately. Zzzzz.


The game is pretty much won at this point, since I hardly see anyone who can say "No" to my fleets. Need like 20 turns to find and siege all other Capitals.

AutoSave 1019.sav

AutoSave 1038.sav

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 22, 2018, 11:10:36 AM

Brace for impact.


1) Empire management numbers are empirical and impossible to guess. 


- Will settling this colony put my food into negative? No? I have no idea.

- Why food is taken from my homeworld to colonize, when I have colony right next to it, overflowing with food? No idea.

- How many colonies I can settle before expansion disapproval hits? I have no idea.

- Why Food % to Manpower buildings bring my systems into starving and pops running away? If there is not enough food to feed the pops, stop slamming it into manpower then?


2) Economic victory is still broken


- As a Craver, naturally, I declare war on anything that moves, to keep the happiness bonus from Jingoist Paradise law.

- Just a dozen turns later I find entire galaxy united in an alliance against me. They seem to have no issues with each other whatsoever, but as soon as they see me - they immediately ally.

- A few more dosen turns later, by turn 80 normal speed Endless difficulty, while busy trashing their puny fleets with my stacks of Queen carriers, I get the message "Hey man, nice game and all, but this alliance is close to economic victory, cya!". Complete disbalance. Especally lame that an alliance can work together towards a victory - there is no way a single empire can outpace that or rush enemy down. Especially in 80 turns. Not with the current fleet speeds (more below).

- Have to disable both score and economic victories now until they fixed (when?)


3) Fleets are too slow. And non-seeker Admirals are useless.


- Best engine tech you get access to in reasonable time  is +4 speed engine. Considering you mount it on a 2-speed Carrier, that's 6 speed on fleet, which is a joke, of course. It will take roughly 10 turns to move this fleet anywhere. So, naturally, the most logical option is to fit 2 engiens to it, to bring it up to 10 speed at least.

- Now comes the sad part - the actual fighter heroes, the Guardians, flying FLAG ships, that have onl2 2 (TWO) support slots. So if they fit 2 engines, they cannot fit probes, which are constantly required here and there. 

- On top of that, Guardian heroes do not give any speed bonuses to fleets, ever. So, they are eaither stuck with 2 engines and no probes, or 1 engine and probes, which is slower than 2 engines you fit on ships.

- End result - never use Guardian hero for the fleet, have to scrounge Academy and Marketplace for Seeker heroes, who use ship with 3 support slots and can fit 2 engines + 1 probe. Also they have 2 fleet speed increases in their skill line.


As of right now, Admirals are considered to be utterly useless - you always get more bang for your buck, by putting a Governor into the planet.

Why? In Endless Space 1, a Pilot/Adventurer hero put as Admiral had access to skills that bring you Dust+Science per destroyed CP, get your fleets repaired outside of friendly territory, got access to unique tactics (Dust Barrier OP), and so on and on. Your fleets bloomed with an Admiral.

Here, in this game (I guess we still call it ES2, even though it has very little to do with ES1), Admirals have nothing besides dubious skills like increase some fleet damage/health here and there, sometimes add move points. All of that is taken care by fitting mods already.


On top of that, since you have moved the powerful Dust+Science per destroyed CP from faction traits and hero skills into laws and ship fittings, they never see the light of day simply because by the time you unlock Militarist law for that the game is almost over, and fitting that on ships simply never happens because there are ways too much modules already and not enough slots for them.

The whole reason of the Dust+Science per destroyed CP was to help aggressive empires, who forfeit heavy science and dust production, to keep moving forward, was it not? Besides, the bonus is very small now (50 dust+science per CP), and was supposed to help in early game, since the gains are negligible in late-game, when you pushing thousands scince per turn. Now,  considering that you stuffed it into VERY late game, it is utterly useless, specially since AI barely builds any fleets, as mentioned below. This mechanic was very powerful and working very good in ES1 (up to a point where it was banned in multiplayer), but here is entirely broken and useless, out of its place. 

The balancing of it in ES1 was also perfect - you field a huge fleet, your dust income plummets into negatives, and you are looking for anything to kill to gain more dust to keep your fleets going - exactly how the mechanic should work and feel.


4) Useless skills for all heroes


- It is obvious, that throughout the course of the game, most heroes will either spend their time as Governor or as Admiral. By the time you can make hero thatis good in both, the game is probably over.

- So,in all skill trees there are constantly bad choices that force you to take fleet-related skills on Governors - since Admirals usually can roll around this problem by picking skills in their personal tree, still useless ones, but not as bad as Governors.

- On top of it, the personal hero skills in last picks are "Reduce hero upkeep by 25%". It costs 46 dust to upkeep. Why would I ever waste a skill point on that guano? On top of it, the latest skill in personal line is always "Remove upkeep cost for the hero", which is, again, crap because Nobody cares about 46 dust upkeep, and second - I have just put a skill point to reduce his upkeep by 25%, and now you offer me a skill that removes upkeep? Where is the logic in that.


In Endless Space 1, heroes had so much nice skills, it was always a tough choice "Hmmm what do I pick, aww come on everything looks so juicy". Here, in this game, the skills picks are reduced to nothing literally, you hit rank 3 on your hero and choose out of 3 skills - 1 admiral skill, 1 governor skill, 1 crap personal skill. Literally no choice whatsoever, and all heroes have same exact skills, because 80% of skills just suck. Clone army.


Please, make all hero skills mean something so there is actually any incentive to pick them. And please, add more skills so there is actually something to choose from and not "obvious planet stuff/obvious fleet stuff/obvious weird stuff" every level up.


5) Endless AI still doesn't build any proper fleets.


- I can declare war on AI and sit for 20 turns and nothing happens. Then I come over with Carriers to find out they barely have few mid-size ships. With fleet caps at 15-20 in turns 40-60, I have never ever seen an AI to build up to fleet cap once. No idea what they spend dust on - probably useless trade companies, but not fleets.


6) Trade companies are weak and useless


- So I invested 10k dust into a trade company, and it brings me 10 science and some dust? Really? First of all, investing this amount of dust to get more dust over 3000+ turns is pointless, the game pace is too fast even on normal.

Second, I generate over 4,000 science at this point myself. And I can build a planet specialization +1 dust per pop and it will give me hundreds more. No idea what is the point behind the trade companies, but they suck as it is.

The whole thing with ES1 trading was that it was passive income, without huge upfront investment. You spend research on it, and you spend production on it to get it going, and then it pays off in reasonable time.

In this game - considering you also have to slam obnoxious amount of dust into it, along with science and production - it is completely not worth it at all. The base economy of it needs heavy work, all the way back to the drawing board.


7) AI has no idea how to hoard and use strategic resources


Basically, what I do is hoard titanium, build slag&sludge, build all mining unions and max my titanium income. Then I produce a bunch of titanium-filled ships, even t1 hulls,  and voila - I can reap apart whole galaxy easily.

By turn 80 normal speed I am yet to see a single AI using Titanium or Hyperium weapons. And by this time, I am already uprading my fleets to Adamanitum and researching Orichalcx/etc.

AI needs to learn the basics of science, and which areas to approahc and when. Like, you beeline basic colonization first, then food, then you beeline basic science + production + dust, then you beeline to basic ship fittings, back to colonization and so on. Then you beeling titanium/hyperium weapons depending on what resource you got the most, along with goo hulls. As of right now, these waves of research for AI seem broken and inneffective.


8) Abysmal ship fitting options. This requires a topic of its own, but nonetheless.


God, there are SO MANY pointless, useless and bloated modules in the game now.


1st - fighters/bombers taking up a WEAPON slot on ships - why would you ever, ever fit a crappy fighter/bomber there when fitting Adamantium slugs in there guarantees you rip your enemy apart? If they could fit into expansion slots, or special fighter/bomber slots, that would be understandable. As of right now, they are terrible and useless.


2nd - there are so many support modules bloating my screen, but in reality what is the use for them? 

You fit a ship to carry:

- weapons

- 2xengines minimum or it will be too slow to get anywhere on the map

- 1 shield 1 plate

- if you have any slots left, a repair module or siege module

Done. There is no space for all those useless mods like "10% ship less chance to get attacked", lol, really? "Additional manpower on ships" who cares when I cannot field more than 900 troopson planet anyway? I could list useless modules here half a day and still wouldn't get half of those. Too much. Too pointless with miniscule bonuses not worth a slot.


Please, make the ship mods mean something so there is actually any incentive to use them.


9) Some quests are pointless/impossible to complete


Got the quest to Save the Core at my homeworld as Cravers. The planets are depleted, and there is simply no way for me to ever make this system produce 600 production and 500 science per turn and not in total. So, this quest is stuck forever. Need to change quests like that to produce something over time and not instantly in a system - otherwise very often you get stuck because the system cannot ever do it.


Sorry for so much rant, but I see you guys are already releasing eye-candy DLC, which means you consider the game balance being fine and not needing work.

It is nowhere near even Endless Space 1 as a 4x strategy - as explained above, many things need work, the overall game pace needs work as well.

Right now the only things enjoyable in this game are UI, visuals and music, so props to UI design, FX and audio teams. 

The rest, the actual gameplay and strategy component, is just terrible.


I could rant for hours, but my coffee is running low and temper cold.

As of right now, the game is still in the worse state that Endless Space 1, and it is really sad to see it.

Peace.


 

Updated 7 years ago.
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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
gigabytemon wrote:
Pixelsquid wrote:

I don't want to be rude, but the insulting tone of your post kind of warrants it. You clearly have no fucking idea what your'e doing. The majority of your 'complaints' are simply completely and utterly false, as many others have pointed out above. Please bother to actually understand what youre doing before bashing the game. Maybe play on a lower difficulty if your having issues understanding basic mechanics. 

English is not necessarily a poster's first language, so intonation on an online word-based forum needs to be taken with a bit of salt. As for the complaints, I actually think they are legitimate and valid. Not all things make the same amount of sense to everyone, and some parts of the UI could do with clarification because some mechanics are just unclear in that regard. Don't go bashing on someone just because you don't agree with their gripes! :)

Yeh I think everyone needs to be careful to keep it civil, even if the OP is being a little incendiary. I think the problem here was the framing. Lots of these complaints could have been framed as requests for assistance. Plenty of other players have asked about things they don't understand, or if they are missing something in the mechanics. Even the more veteran players request help for things that they don't fully grasp. I STILL don't fully understand all the combat mechanics in the game after nearly 1000 hours, so I try to pay attention when people like Plutar or Samsonazs discuss ship design as this is something they have spent a lot of time thinking about. 


The problem with the OP was that it was framed not as - Am I misunderstanding these things - but rather as - These things are badly designed - which they are not, but maybe there is a lack of transparency for newer players (which I tried to acknowledge in my first post here). In other words, there was a bit of lack of humility, which was unfortunate. However let's try not to get into throwing insults, and instead use the space to be helpful.

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7 years ago
Jan 23, 2018, 11:11:58 AM
Pixelsquid wrote:

I don't want to be rude, but the insulting tone of your post kind of warrants it. You clearly have no fucking idea what your'e doing. The majority of your 'complaints' are simply completely and utterly false, as many others have pointed out above. Please bother to actually understand what youre doing before bashing the game. Maybe play on a lower difficulty if your having issues understanding basic mechanics. 

English is not necessarily a poster's first language, so intonation on an online word-based forum needs to be taken with a bit of salt. As for the complaints, I actually think they are legitimate and valid. Not all things make the same amount of sense to everyone, and some parts of the UI could do with clarification because some mechanics are just unclear in that regard. Don't go bashing on someone just because you don't agree with their gripes! :)

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