ENDLESS™ Space 2 is turn-based 4X space-strategy that launches players into the space colonization age of different civilizations within the ENDLESS™ Universe. Your Vision. Their Future.
Didnt extensivly tried out the new expansion yet, just 2 games with the Hissho yet, and saw they even got better slugs
so how is it going? Did manpower invasions get better? Couldnt spot much differences besides the fact that defender deploy limits are upgradable which actually makes manpower invasions less attractive, i guess?
Whatever your opinions regarding titanium slugs, they're the ONLY way Vodyani can handle pirates in the early to mid game. Nerfing them means leaving the V. at the pirates' mercy. You'd need to find a way to compensate for this...
Yea terodil I actually am on your side. The primary problem in my eyes is manpower is very different among the different races when it comes to offense and defense.
Playing vodyani good luck being able to generate enough manpower to take on endless pirates, and the modules are a neccecity. Same goes when attacking a unfallen hw early in the game, you can not win without a siege module to help you along your way.
Manpower itself also can be completely lost on accident (ever flown over a system being invaded by accident and find your fleet at zero manpower?)
And manpower problems also give the illusion of certain things being too strong, a example would be somebody starts invading a vaulters system. They can then portal over after your invasion has begun, with ships now at zero manpower, and simply take them over with boarding pods, giving them the appearence of being OP when in most situations they are not.
I'd like to see a way to lock manpower to a fleet so you get your choice as to when to deploy, and the percentage you wish to deploy. While slowing the pace of the siege module would also be nice, but its one of those items that is too fast early game, too slow late game. Also a siege module's ability to function and how much manpower its pulling off of a system is in direct relation to that systems ability to create manpower, so with manpower heavy races the ONLY way to beat them is to seige them fully then invade.
I don't know where the fix is, it could be in scaling siege modules like weapons?
Agreed. Manpower/invasions mechanics are quickly made redundant by Titanium A2S slugs.
This could be addressed by increasing base ship invasion values and reducing the value of the slugs. Many times a single module on a single ship is as powerful as an entire fleet at defensive manpower reduction. These slugs should compliments, not overshadow. For people who want that high level of bang, Adamantium and Orichalcix A2S Slugs could be added to later stages of the tech tree.
It should never take 30 normal turns for a moderate-sized fleet to seige an average system from max to zero.
Whatever the strenght of the module it will always be a problem if they just stack.
I mean that if you reduce damage from 30 to 5 for example then you just need to stack more ships and it is a lineral trend that is easy.
What would be better is to have attack power grow logaritmically. Maybe like the defence modules.
In this way adding more and more ships with slugs will have less and less of an impact.
This way you will never have fleets that just remove all manpower in a single turn but you would still be able to reduce it to 0 if you wait long enough.
It's not a problem if the ships have naturally decent output without the module. The only reason people use them the way they do now is because of the massive increase when a single module is equipped. So long as the base value without modules is significant, stacking A2G modules becomes a waste. They could always be made unique equip per ship, but I really don't see much of a point if the increase for a 20cp fleet is 300 dmg to 400 dmg to 500 dmg, instead of 100 dmg to 400 dmg to 700 dmg.
The only reason people even make specialized invasion fleets is because the base invasion rate is so ridiculously slow compared to the A2G modules.
The only reason people even make specialized invasion fleets is because the base invasion rate is so ridiculously slow compared to the A2G modules.
Mhh, excuse me if i'm talking heresy but is it a bad thing that a fleet specifically designed for one job does that job efficiently?
Is it bad game design when good planning (in this case good fleet composition) results in success?
Would it be better if any ship was just good at everything by default and only the total number of ships made a difference?
I personally think it's a good thing that you need to bring specialized assault fleets if you want to reliably and quickly take over enemy systems. That way we have to make choices, do we need invasion fleets or simply combat ships to defend our territory? How big an army can we afford knowing we need different ships for different jobs and possibly need several fleets to sucessfully invade enemies?
I also think it's a good thing that we have several (well, actually 2) options to invade enemy systems, either by bringing lots of troops or with special sieging fleets. This allows different races with different manpower generation to use different tools. When i played Hissho recently i didn't even bother with Titanium Slugs (they have a different name with the DLC), i assembled 2 full transport fleets that could move anywhere and drop tons of troops and those could take any syetem apart from citadel defended in 1-2 turns of ground battle and still had enough MP to do several planets in a row. For citadel defended systems i had to battle for 4-5 turns. Now, playing as Vodyani i sure wouldn't have had that MP to spare and probably would have resorted to the slugs. They have advantaged and disadvantages as already explained.
Just because something is too efficient against the AI doesn't mean it's too powerful. The AI is (still) rather bad on the military front, as every 4x AI i've played against is, even thought it's getting better. As an example, i was surprised during that Hissho game when the UE who had declared war on me a looooong time before and i always dominated without ever totally conquering (as i was too busy doing nothing useful) suddenly showed at my door with 2 large hero-led fleets after being quiet for some time. They actually managed to stop the skirmishes they consistently lost long enough to assemble real fleets that packed quite a punch. It wasn't enough to break through my Citadel defended frontier system but it was a nice change from what i used to see in this game and others where the AI is brain-dead when their initial invasion fails. Anyway, it's still pretty bad at managing combat on several fronts and often leaves it's systems badly defended when it goes on the offensive allowing easy invasions by non-combat fleets, making those specialized fleets seem stronger then they really are.
That being said, if really you don't like the idea of winning systems simply by keeping a fleet in orbit for a few turns, i think the best "fix" would be to have defensive improvements (at least those like Bunkers and Shields) make some of the system's MP unsiegeable like Citadels do. This way while still making invasion easier and faster, slugs wouldn't totally make MP irrelevent which i think, is the core of the issue as it's hard to imagine being able to invade a system without having at least some combat on the surface (apart from surrender, but that's already an option).
The only reason people even make specialized invasion fleets is because the base invasion rate is so ridiculously slow compared to the A2G modules.
Mhh, excuse me if i'm talking heresy but is it a bad thing that a fleet specifically designed for one job does that job efficiently?
Is it bad game design when good planning (in this case good fleet composition) results in success?
Would it be better if any ship was just good at everything by default and only the total number of ships made a difference?
I personally think it's a good thing that you need to bring specialized assault fleets if you want to reliably and quickly take over enemy systems. That way we have to make choices, do we need invasion fleets or simply combat ships to defend our territory? How big an army can we afford knowing we need different ships for different jobs and possibly need several fleets to sucessfully invade enemies?
I also think it's a good thing that we have several (well, actually 2) options to invade enemy systems, either by bringing lots of troops or with special sieging fleets. This allows different races with different manpower generation to use different tools. When i played Hissho recently i didn't even bother with Titanium Slugs (they have a different name with the DLC), i assembled 2 full transport fleets that could move anywhere and drop tons of troops and those could take any syetem apart from citadel defended in 1-2 turns of ground battle and still had enough MP to do several planets in a row. For citadel defended systems i had to battle for 4-5 turns. Now, playing as Vodyani i sure wouldn't have had that MP to spare and probably would have resorted to the slugs. They have advantaged and disadvantages as already explained.
Just because something is too efficient against the AI doesn't mean it's too powerful. The AI is (still) rather bad on the military front, as every 4x AI i've played against is, even thought it's getting better. As an example, i was surprised during that Hissho game when the UE who had declared war on me a looooong time before and i always dominated without ever totally conquering (as i was too busy doing nothing useful) suddenly showed at my door with 2 large hero-led fleets after being quiet for some time. They actually managed to stop the skirmishes they consistently lost long enough to assemble real fleets that packed quite a punch. It wasn't enough to break through my Citadel defended frontier system but it was a nice change from what i used to see in this game and others where the AI is brain-dead when their initial invasion fails. Anyway, it's still pretty bad at managing combat on several fronts and often leaves it's systems badly defended when it goes on the offensive allowing easy invasions by non-combat fleets, making those specialized fleets seem stronger then they really are.
That being said, if really you don't like the idea of winning systems simply by keeping a fleet in orbit for a few turns, i think the best "fix" would be to have defensive improvements (at least those like Bunkers and Shields) make some of the system's MP unsiegeable like Citadels do. This way while still making invasion easier and faster, slugs wouldn't totally make MP irrelevent which i think, is the core of the issue as it's hard to imagine being able to invade a system without having at least some combat on the surface (apart from surrender, but that's already an option).
Yes. It is bad. The whole module setup seems designed to avoid the attack fleet/invasion fleet problem of ES1. If that is the original intent, this specific module completely breaks it.
Mhh, excuse me if i'm talking heresy but is it a bad thing that a fleet specifically designed for one job does that job efficiently?
Yes. It is bad. The whole module setup seems designed to avoid the attack fleet/invasion fleet problem of ES1. If that is the original intent, this specific module completely breaks it.
I agree with LordYanaek here. I like specialisation, it increases strategic depth. There is a good reason why the rock-paper-scissors-principle can be found in so many games.
Why do you think that it's bad? I've got the feeling that you dislike something else that's more specific but that you tie it to the issue of specialisation, which needn't necessarily be warranted.
I agree with LordYanaek here. I like specialisation, it increases strategic depth. There is a good reason why the rock-paper-scissors-principle can be found in so many games.
Why do you think that it's bad? I've got the feeling that you dislike something else that's more specific but that you tie it to the issue of specialisation, which needn't necessarily be warranted.
"Specialization" only increases strategic depth if other specializations are similarly viable. The topic at hand is that A2S Slugs are sufficiently powerful that the other specialization (Invasion modules) is not a viable competitor. If a specialization is powerful enough to be plainly the correct choice in too many situations, the choice doesn't really exist, nor does the specialization.
The example of rock-paper-scissors doesn't work if we're talking about something with only two specializations, and one of them is better than the other.
If Vodyani need slugs because of their poor Manpower, then that is a problem with Vodyani Manpower, and likely a problem with Manpower production as a larger mechanic. That does not justify not tuning down Slugs to be more balanced with Invasion modules to preserve the purpose of the Manpower mechanic, which is to limit invasions and add an element of resource strain to invasion, which A2S Slugs sidestep by not costing Manpower.
As to the potential solution of upping base Siege rates but nerfing Siege modules, and the issue then of just building more Siege ships to overcome it, I am.baffled that ES2 does not seem to increase ship upkeep based on equipped modules. If Siege modules were both weaker and more expensive, then they'd be less problematic.
And then as to Manpower overall, I really think it needs to be decoupled from Food entirely except as a special feature of certain traits. Manpower is currently a bit of a joke because you either lack it when playing an odd faction, or suddenly cross an invisible line and begin producing more Manpower than you can ever use.
I was thinking... maybe you can tie manpower into draw essence for Vodyani? This way those modules won't become obsolete when you have 3+ arks, and your fleets can replenish their manpower when fighting in foreign territory (also gives you an incentive to put such a module on your ships instead of making a leecher only one for essence).
Then early pirates won't be impossible on endless diff, you can make some defenders paired with figthers that can orbit the pirate lair and drain it down while reinforcing your manpower as you lay siege / ground battles to punish the lumeris errr I mean the vaulters priva... err no the pirates, damn those pirates the unfaithful shall be purged!
I was thinking... maybe you can tie manpower into draw essence for Vodyani? This way those modules won't become obsolete when you have 3+ arks, and your fleets can replenish their manpower when fighting in foreign territory (also gives you an incentive to put such a module on your ships instead of making a leecher only one for essence).
Then early pirates won't be impossible on endless diff, you can make some defenders paired with figthers that can orbit the pirate lair and drain it down while reinforcing your manpower as you lay siege / ground battles to punish the lumeris errr I mean the vaulters priva... err no the pirates, damn those pirates the unfaithful shall be purged!
A good idea. Their basic conscription is based on Essence to Manpower conversion. Perhaps a 10% conversion rate for Essence instead of food should be standard for Vodyani. Patriot Pills and Exotic Rations could be changed according for Vodyani specifically to give more control over which systems are used for higher Essence conversion?
Also, the Unfallen, if their Vineship is taken out swiftly, can be isolated to a single system and dispatched rather quickly, and a few Leechers can draw Essence from Koyasil as a side bonus.
Just so you all know, there are Vodyani manpower changes in the testing phase. If you want to test them out for yourselves and possibly provide feedback, you can enable them for your games by using the dev-made G2G Balance mod.
Just so you all know, there are Vodyani manpower changes in the testing phase. If you want to test them out for yourselves and possibly provide feedback, you can enable them for your games by using the dev-made G2G Balance mod.
If I enable this, will it bug my current saves? I mean I don't want to mess up my games in progress with various factions after struggling through endless begining :)
If I enable this, will it bug my current saves? I mean I don't want to mess up my games in progress with various factions after struggling through endless begining :)
I am unsure if you can use the mod with saves started without it. You can duplicate the save and try if you can, but it might not work.
Enabling and using the mod won't affect your previous saves though. You can enable it and try it out on a new save file. Just disable it when you want to continue an old save.
Yeah I had to ask because getting past the early game on endless speed is like ~3 hours experience (if you are like me and play it RPG style for maximum immersion, and not clicking / rightlicking when you discover a new system, skipping notifications / diplomacy pop-ups etc, reading all quest through) :) I guess I would make a bad tester hehe!
So is the only thing slugs keeping from getting nerfed the problem with the vodyani not being able to utilize enough manpower? And falling of too much without slugs?
What exactly are the changes you are speaking of, Touko?
I wanna play a game, where manpower is an important rescource not just something that can easily become redundant because of one technologie
There are more problems with Vodyani than just this one. Riftborn also greatly suffer early to mid game from lack of manpower (after that it becomes a non-issue once you have 1-2 systems that produce decent industry and you complete a faction quest).
But the problem is really only in early to mid game, after that all factions can generate manpower to their desire (obviously more standard factions do it passively due to their insane food generation, while riftborn & vodyani have to invest in creating it).
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