We all know the manpower issue that Vodyani have.

Reduced food production equals reduced manpower production.

Instead of giving them more manpower I have some ideas that should be more interesting as a solution.

This alows Vodyani to remain a small population and gives other ways to play the game.

Space ships

The main problem is that Vodyani quickly run out of manpower when building ships. 

All we need to do is reduce the manpower need on Vodyani ships. 

Cut all of them by half so a Vodyani attacker ship has only 50 manpower on board.

This means that agains Vodyani you might want to start considering anticrew weapons/tactics but on the other side I would introduce some unique Vodyani ship modules that protect the crew better.

System invasion

Ground invasion is still very hard for Vodyani. Instead of fixing that I would leave it as it is. That means Vodyani have a harder time to accumulate the needed manpower to take over a system. But their main strategy should be to whipe out the fleet in orbit and leach the population.

General issues:

When you Anchor an Ark you lose manpower. This has absolutelly no sense as the Arc already has manpower so why do we need to take up more?

Good suggestions. Specially the one about anchoring Arks. Only downside I see is that the introduction of new modules may confuse new players (actually seems MP mechanics is hard to get for new players, from what I read in forums).

In general the game needs a good tutorial that explains the mechanics. Manpower is not the only item on that list.

Understanding space battles being the bigges one.

I am not really fond of cutting the manpower on ships. I mean you may want to siege a planet at a point in game, if the manpower is cut in half on ships, you will have no way to invade systems (be it player planets or pirate lairs).

IMHO, the man power is a problem only early game, after that I don't really know what manpower is for Vodyani, you can sacrifice pops on each system to get a fast refill and next turn they are instantly back to full pop (if you did plan / build your systems accordingly ofc).

Regarding leeching population - is only good in early game, once you get to 3+ Arks, and upgrade your arks, you won't need to leech for essence ever again. You really can't leech a developed system clean, their food production will be way more than what your leechers can decrease, you still need troops (manpower) to invade and fight the battles.

Yes, when you anchor you loose the manpower that is bonkers - not sure tho if that manpower isn't transferred to system planets you just anchored to? Will have to check in my game later today.

Anelyn wrote:

I am not really fond of cutting the manpower on ships. I mean you may want to siege a planet at a point in game, if the manpower is cut in half on ships, you will have no way to invade systems (be it player planets or pirate lairs).

When you invade systems you have a large fleet in orbit either way so with the "cut in half" that would just mean more ships or a few with manpower modules that do the invasion.

And now with manpower modules increasing deployment limit they are a must for invasion so that you can overcome the conscription army in one turn.

So this is not an issue.

IMHO, the man power is a problem only early game, after that I don't really know what manpower is for Vodyani, you can sacrifice pops on each system to get a fast refill and next turn they are instantly back to full pop (if you did plan / build your systems accordingly ofc).

You are correct that it isn't such a problem in later game. But early game is key here. If you are unable to have a good start you fall behing really fast.

In my games I also didn't have problems with manpower once I got a couple Arc's anchored to systems. But even then I could see that it wasn't as good as other empires have.

Regarding leeching population - is only good in early game, once you get to 3+ Arks, and upgrade your arks, you won't need to leech for essence ever again. You really can't leech a developed system clean, their food production will be way more than what your leechers can decrease, you still need troops (manpower) to invade and fight the battles.

I wouldn't say that. Even in mid game I have large leacher fleets that can suck 1,5k essence from a system. In late game I expect I would have a lot more and sucking dry even a developed system would not be a problem. But this connects with the general overflow of food that the game has so maybe once that is balanced out draining systems will go a lot faster.

Yes, when you anchor you loose the manpower that is bonkers - not sure tho if that manpower isn't transferred to system planets you just anchored to? Will have to check in my game later today.

I checked it and it isn't. It is like you have manpower on the Arc once it is in cruise mode and then when you anchor it you need to fill it up with manpower again.

Abrasax wrote:

How about changing the Religious forced law by adding [+n manpower per turn per system] as an effect?

Not only would this address the issue, but it seems to fit thematically with a religious constituency and their desire for military crusades.

EDIT: n could be any value that seems appropriate for balance with other factions' manpower generation in early game.

It could be  a % of essence generation even. Or Leech/Tithe modules could grant manpower (earn your place in a crusade). I'd be personally interested in a few more faction-unique tech applications though, especially when it concerns ships.

I could imagine Vodyani running with less manpower on ships and having significant crew damage resistance baseline. They're basically organically produced AI inhabiting their ships. If I was part of the Vodyani clergy the first thing I'd be doing is replacing crew with direct control by the chosen.

Of course I'm the guy over here who looks at Riftborn ships and thinks "If they're mass produced shells inhabited by extradimensional consciousness so why aren't their ships just really big shells inhabited by one or more of those same consciousnesses? Or are they?"

Autochthon wrote:

Abrasax wrote:

How about changing the Religious forced law by adding [+n manpower per turn per system] as an effect?

Not only would this address the issue, but it seems to fit thematically with a religious constituency and their desire for military crusades.

EDIT: n could be any value that seems appropriate for balance with other factions' manpower generation in early game.

It could be  a % of essence generation even. Or Leech/Tithe modules could grant manpower (earn your place in a crusade). I'd be personally interested in a few more faction-unique tech applications though, especially when it concerns ships.

I could imagine Vodyani running with less manpower on ships and having significant crew damage resistance baseline. They're basically organically produced AI inhabiting their ships. If I was part of the Vodyani clergy the first thing I'd be doing is replacing crew with direct control by the chosen.

Of course I'm the guy over here who looks at Riftborn ships and thinks "If they're mass produced shells inhabited by extradimensional consciousness so why aren't their ships just really big shells inhabited by one or more of those same consciousnesses? Or are they?"

Percentage of Essence would make the bonus restricted to Vodyani Affinity, though I wouldn't dismiss it as a faction-specific bonus on top of a basic manpower per turn boost. I would just like to see more benefit to the Religious forced law in general. Being able to invade during cold war is nice, but situational, and other situational forced laws (such as Scientists) have received added bonuses with constant benefit.

As far as crew damage resistance goes, that could simply be added as a base Vodyani trait, without tying it to a law. Vodyani could definitely use some love in the manpower department.

No, that would be bad if it is tied to religious laws, because if due to some events + research + building + actions in gallaxy you lose your religious party - happened to me several times, you wouldn't have access to it for a set number of turns.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't manpower on ships have an impact on it's systems / weapons / defenses?

In current game you can simply load an ark with manpower modules and invade a system because it's way faster and cheaper to do than creating a fleet for sieging only that also consumes dust when sitting around, but the ark can be instantly deployed afterwards and retrofited next turn.

Anelyn wrote:

No, that would be bad if it is tied to religious laws, because if due to some events + research + building + actions in gallaxy you lose your religious party - happened to me several times, you wouldn't have access to it for a set number of turns.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't manpower on ships have an impact on it's systems / weapons / defenses?

In current game you can simply load an ark with manpower modules and invade a system because it's way faster and cheaper to do than creating a fleet for sieging only that also consumes dust when sitting around, but the ark can be instantly deployed afterwards and retrofited next turn.

1) Don't lose your Religious majority. This is made easier by Militarist boosters also supporting Religious and their lack of effect from Scientist. Tying it to the Religious forced law would greatly incentivize maintaining Religious support at any cost. Perhaps even a Religious propaganda infinite conversion option could be added? Horatio and Cravers have their Ecologist and Militarist respectively. Perhaps it's time for Vodyani to have a Religious one (it makes sense).

2) Just restrict access to Manpower modules for Arks. Simple solution.

Anelyn wrote:

Also correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't manpower on ships have an impact on it's systems / weapons / defenses?

Last implementation I remember was that a ship with 0 manpower does 10% less damage. 

That is practically no change so you don't need to worry about it. Defence stays at the same level.

Abrasax wrote:

Anelyn wrote:

No, that would be bad if it is tied to religious laws, because if due to some events + research + building + actions in gallaxy you lose your religious party - happened to me several times, you wouldn't have access to it for a set number of turns.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't manpower on ships have an impact on it's systems / weapons / defenses?

In current game you can simply load an ark with manpower modules and invade a system because it's way faster and cheaper to do than creating a fleet for sieging only that also consumes dust when sitting around, but the ark can be instantly deployed afterwards and retrofited next turn.

1) Don't lose your Religious majority. This is made easier by Militarist boosters also supporting Religious and their lack of effect from Scientist. Tying it to the Religious forced law would greatly incentivize maintaining Religious support at any cost. Perhaps even a Religious propaganda infinite conversion option could be added? Horatio and Cravers have their Ecologist and Militarist respectively. Perhaps it's time for Vodyani to have a Religious one (it makes sense).

2) Just restrict access to Manpower modules for Arks. Simple solution.

That is not so easy to do, as I said. There are events in game that increase popularity of a different party no matter what option you select. You are forced to research techs that boost other parties as well (food, industry, science, dust etc).

It's really not that controllable what happens - even with predictions periodically - you can still have surprises. If I need a good governor or admiral with a decent level, but his alignment is ecologists or industrialists, I shouldn't be forced to pass on that just because I could loose my religious law - no other race would be so much affected by this.

War is nice and all, but you can't do it early on especially as Vodyani, simply because you gain nothing even if you win, you need Arks to colonize systems, hunting grounds isn't really anything to write home about considering the investment of time (turns), resources (to build ships both for fighting and invasion), science (research spent on improving said ships in various ways), while other races gain a lot from it.

Personally I prefer to play tall with Vodyani, peacefull and go for economic / science victories, forcing me to be a warmonger just to maintain a very important bonus is heavily restricting gameplay with this particular race. Every race should be able to go for any victory type (yes some victories are more cattered toward said race, but making them completely unnobtainable is bad for gameplay and longevity / replay value).

@Samsonazs but a ship with extra manpower would do 10% more I believe no? Stacking that with modules on ship and hero traits it becomes quite notable, especially when fights are usually decided in first phase, rarely going to 2nd one and never to 3rd (talking mid-late game of course, your scouts early game will always get to 3rd hehehe!).

Anelyn wrote:

@Samsonazs but a ship with extra manpower would do 10% more I believe no? Stacking that with modules on ship and hero traits it becomes quite notable, especially when fights are usually decided in first phase, rarely going to 2nd one and never to 3rd (talking mid-late game of course, your scouts early game will always get to 3rd hehehe!).

It doesn't work that way. If you add manpower modules and have 500 manpower on a ship that originaly had 300 then you still do the same amount of damage.

The only difference being that now if you have 250 manpower you do 5% damage less.

Ah ok I might have missread some tooltips, was sure you would do 20% more at full manpower or something.

I remember an old implementation that could be different now.
It might now be +20% damage at full manpower and -10% at 0.
Would need to check that but manpower modules don't change those numbers in any way.

Anelyn wrote:

Abrasax wrote:

Anelyn wrote:

No, that would be bad if it is tied to religious laws, because if due to some events + research + building + actions in gallaxy you lose your religious party - happened to me several times, you wouldn't have access to it for a set number of turns.

Also correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't manpower on ships have an impact on it's systems / weapons / defenses?

In current game you can simply load an ark with manpower modules and invade a system because it's way faster and cheaper to do than creating a fleet for sieging only that also consumes dust when sitting around, but the ark can be instantly deployed afterwards and retrofited next turn.

1) Don't lose your Religious majority. This is made easier by Militarist boosters also supporting Religious and their lack of effect from Scientist. Tying it to the Religious forced law would greatly incentivize maintaining Religious support at any cost. Perhaps even a Religious propaganda infinite conversion option could be added? Horatio and Cravers have their Ecologist and Militarist respectively. Perhaps it's time for Vodyani to have a Religious one (it makes sense).

2) Just restrict access to Manpower modules for Arks. Simple solution.

That is not so easy to do, as I said. There are events in game that increase popularity of a different party no matter what option you select. You are forced to research techs that boost other parties as well (food, industry, science, dust etc).

It's really not that controllable what happens - even with predictions periodically - you can still have surprises. If I need a good governor or admiral with a decent level, but his alignment is ecologists or industrialists, I shouldn't be forced to pass on that just because I could loose my religious law - no other race would be so much affected by this.

War is nice and all, but you can't do it early on especially as Vodyani, simply because you gain nothing even if you win, you need Arks to colonize systems, hunting grounds isn't really anything to write home about considering the investment of time (turns), resources (to build ships both for fighting and invasion), science (research spent on improving said ships in various ways), while other races gain a lot from it.

Personally I prefer to play tall with Vodyani, peacefull and go for economic / science victories, forcing me to be a warmonger just to maintain a very important bonus is heavily restricting gameplay with this particular race. Every race should be able to go for any victory type (yes some victories are more cattered toward said race, but making them completely unnobtainable is bad for gameplay and longevity / replay value).

@Samsonazs but a ship with extra manpower would do 10% more I believe no? Stacking that with modules on ship and hero traits it becomes quite notable, especially when fights are usually decided in first phase, rarely going to 2nd one and never to 3rd (talking mid-late game of course, your scouts early game will always get to 3rd hehehe!).

My suggestion to add an invinite conversion (propaganda) for Religious would be the easiest and most thematically consistent solution to this easily-solved problem. There are reasons Horatio and Cravers have similar infinite conversions (propaganda) for Ecologist and Militarist respectively. It's high time a similar mechanic were added specifically for the Vodyani, regardless of whether or not any of the manpower suggestions are added.

Abrasax wrote:

My suggestion to add an invinite conversion (propaganda) for Religious would be the easiest and most thematically consistent solution to this easily-solved problem. There are reasons Horatio and Cravers have similar infinite conversions (propaganda) for Ecologist and Militarist respectively. It's high time a similar mechanic were added specifically for the Vodyani, regardless of whether or not any of the manpower suggestions are added.

That's incorrect. Horatio and Cravers don't just get some unique, free Propaganda ability for the hell of it, it's been a feature of Dictatorship for months now that you get propaganda for your chosen party.

To "implement" it for Vodyani would mean to lock them into Dictatorship, while ignoring the root problem that Religious party lacks associated political actions.

IceGremlin wrote:

Abrasax wrote:

My suggestion to add an invinite conversion (propaganda) for Religious would be the easiest and most thematically consistent solution to this easily-solved problem. There are reasons Horatio and Cravers have similar infinite conversions (propaganda) for Ecologist and Militarist respectively. It's high time a similar mechanic were added specifically for the Vodyani, regardless of whether or not any of the manpower suggestions are added.

That's incorrect. Horatio and Cravers don't just get some unique, free Propaganda ability for the hell of it, it's been a feature of Dictatorship for months now that you get propaganda for your chosen party.

To "implement" it for Vodyani would mean to lock them into Dictatorship, while ignoring the root problem that Religious party lacks associated political actions.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize that was a mechanic of the particular government and thought it was a faction affinity.

And yes, there is a serious lack of Religiously influenced tech, improvements and events. Though, from what I understand, choosing the Militarist choice also boosts Religious sentiment for the Vodyani, correct?

Also, why isn't the Vodyani a Dictatorship? Such a dogmatic theocracy seems like it should be Totalitarian. Federation seems out of place with their lore.

I'm not a veteran, still learning and got many flaws. But this is based on what I have experienced.

After few playthrough as Vodyani, I'm starting to like them. They are bit underpowered at first(manpower is one of it). But once you have strong foundation you can snowball everything. Seriously nothing can't stop you, at mid game I just invade and anchor.

nuyu wrote:

After few playthrough as Vodyani, I'm starting to like them. They are bit underpowered at first(manpower is one of it). But once you have strong foundation you can snowball everything. Seriously nothing can't stop you, at mid game I just invade and anchor.

The snowball problem is a different topic. I have that with any faction I play.
There is a separate thread for that.

samsonazs wrote:

nuyu wrote:

After few playthrough as Vodyani, I'm starting to like them. They are bit underpowered at first(manpower is one of it). But once you have strong foundation you can snowball everything. Seriously nothing can't stop you, at mid game I just invade and anchor.

The snowball problem is a different topic. I have that with any faction I play.
There is a separate thread for that.

What I mean here is, they are meant to be weak early but strong at late game. I think all mentioned issue by your post are fit for their traits because at later game they are strong, so it's balanced for them to be hard and weak first to let other factions have a good starting. If they are already competative since beginning that would be more imbalance. Sorry for confusion, I don't think I'm in wrong thread.

Abrasax wrote:

IceGremlin wrote:

Abrasax wrote:

My suggestion to add an invinite conversion (propaganda) for Religious would be the easiest and most thematically consistent solution to this easily-solved problem. There are reasons Horatio and Cravers have similar infinite conversions (propaganda) for Ecologist and Militarist respectively. It's high time a similar mechanic were added specifically for the Vodyani, regardless of whether or not any of the manpower suggestions are added.

That's incorrect. Horatio and Cravers don't just get some unique, free Propaganda ability for the hell of it, it's been a feature of Dictatorship for months now that you get propaganda for your chosen party.

To "implement" it for Vodyani would mean to lock them into Dictatorship, while ignoring the root problem that Religious party lacks associated political actions.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't realize that was a mechanic of the particular government and thought it was a faction affinity.

And yes, there is a serious lack of Religiously influenced tech, improvements and events. Though, from what I understand, choosing the Militarist choice also boosts Religious sentiment for the Vodyani, correct?

Also, why isn't the Vodyani a Dictatorship? Such a dogmatic theocracy seems like it should be Totalitarian. Federation seems out of place with their lore.

They're a federation because they're focused on heroes. Yes they're totalitarian but they're also ruled by an elite group rather than a powerful individual.

Think Catholic church hierarchy. Yes the pope is powerful, but in the end a lot of the power (and decision making) is in the hands of the cardinals.

Vodyani depend a lot on starting system / nearby systems in early game. 

Did you get a system with 2-3 planets colonized? You're good to go for early game even if you don't find other players / minor factions in first 30 turns (am playing on endless speed so that is very early in the game). You didn't? Then pray that you find a good 4-5 planets system with at least 2-3 planets to move your first arc to, otherwise you're in trouble.

So in a way, they are similar to Vaulters (excluding the start). You colonize slow at start, but when you do, you get a lot more from it than rest of factions. Also, unlike Vaulters, Vodyani care little about size or type of planets, as long as there are many in the system.

Their power comes from the fact that when they reach mid-game, they can challenge any race for dust / science / industry / food production. Their influence gains are smaller than other races (who can specialize planets for it). Also - correct me if I am wrong - Vodyani can't terraform (I think they can still remove / alter anomalies but that's it).

Yes terraforming is blocked for Vodyani and the fact that they don't care about planet size and can fit the same number of population on any planet size does make an advantage.

But as you mentioned there is no specialization available.

All that I think balances out when you compare a fully developed Arc with a fully developed and terraformed system. 

Didn't run the numbers so I might be wrong.

samsonazs wrote:

Yes terraforming is blocked for Vodyani and the fact that they don't care about planet size and can fit the same number of population on any planet size does make an advantage.

But as you mentioned there is no specialization available.

All that I think balances out when you compare a fully developed Arc with a fully developed and terraformed system. 

Didn't run the numbers so I might be wrong.

An Ark has an advantage if the goal is producing something specific. But is generally more expensive to keep "up to date" and is weaker in secondary outputs.