Heya can we please make some adjustments to Vodyani on starting system so that if you get a single planet start you won't loose your only population before you are able to build drone networks? (Am playing on Endless speed, it takes 9-10 turns to build this, if population dies in 6 turns from starvation is nothing I can do, and it really screws you - forcing a restart).

Either make the starting home planet a bit better food wise, or make sure you always start on 2+ planets.

Losing your only pop at start of the game when it costs you 500 essence to make a new one and there are no minor factions nearby it's pretty much GG, your 15 turn T1 research will turn into 25 with 0 pop, and you make ~29 essence / turn with the religious law species stability.

I know that Vodyani can be very strong if they reach mid game, but being so punished early game is really not the solution.

Ok this is just becoming irritating. 80% of starts with a single planet for Vodyani on endless speed result in your only population becoming extinct by turn 6, and fastest you can build your first food production is 8 turns!

It's just not good. At all.

With Vaulters you can work around a bad start, same with other factions, the "death clock" is more manageable, and early game is the most important part of a 4X.

PS: I don't have yet the Supremacy DLC, planning to get it tho. So if this is fixed in that DLC let me know, cheers!

Try the Games2Gether (G2G) Balance mod, I think the list of changes if you search the workshop for the current version 5.1 are in there and it should alleiviate this a bit.

plutar wrote:

Try the Games2Gether (G2G) Balance mod, I think the list of changes if you search the workshop for the current version 5.1 are in there and it should alleiviate this a bit.

Is this a stand alone mode (like community made) or are those changes actually going to come to the game (as in being implemented by developers). Because I know there are mods out there that make tweaks to various things (Vodyani included) but I really don't want to depend on them to have a faction work in the un-moded game, all factions should work irrelevant of start position.

Cheers!

Anelyn wrote:

plutar wrote:

Try the Games2Gether (G2G) Balance mod, I think the list of changes if you search the workshop for the current version 5.1 are in there and it should alleiviate this a bit.

Is this a stand alone mode (like community made) or are those changes actually going to come to the game (as in being implemented by developers). Because I know there are mods out there that make tweaks to various things (Vodyani included) but I really don't want to depend on them to have a faction work in the un-moded game, all factions should work irrelevant of start position.

Cheers!

The G2G Balance Mod is made by the game developers. All changes might not be included as is, but most of them come into the game in following patches.

The G2G balance mod as of right now doesn't do anything to address the Vodyani "food issue" with regards to their starting syetsm. The change in the mod is to prevent using Garganruan Population to cripple economies.

Dang.... that is just not good. I had several games even on endless difficulty were the AI gets great bonuses, where the Vodyani player simple did nothing because it started with 1 planet and it's population died, it's leecher got killed and GG.

It's really something easy to fix IMHO, you just need to make sure that the starting planet can support that 1 vodyani pop for minimum of turns required to build the basic food/ind building (adjusted for all game speeds obviously).

I had posted a collection of ideas in the ideas section. BAsically I'd propose removing "starvation" and "growth" from shipbound populations. Instead they could gain a bonus/malus depending on their food production of lack thereof. That absolutely solves the Vodyani problem while also making the mid-late game condition of growing pops faster through food than essence disappear.

Yes. It's possible to grow population more effectively with food than essence, freing up your essence to pump out Arks.

I know that, but getting there it's a long way. 4-5 planets system with lvl3 or higher on Arc, add population boost, and you make 1 pop every next turn (which also solves your manpower problems since you can sacrifice pop for manpower every turn without losing any pop, since it's instantly filled).

Their problem is in the early game - exacerbated at endless speed IMHO - since it takes 500 essence to grow 1 pop and 1600(?) essence for your first Arc. Losing your leecher or not finding something to leech from severely gimps your empire.

The population/system growth rate reduction is (essentially) the same for Vodyani as it is for every other faction in endless. It just feels worse. My point was that the obvious solution is to just remove food as a mechanic tied to growth on shipbound. Two birds with one stone, no more starving before your first improvement and no more growing faster than anyone else can keep up with.

You mean they will be more like Riftborn pops? That would be great.

Yeah but no other faction starts by starving :)

Well if they do remove the food for Vodyani then they need to improve on the manpower generation a lot, because you won't be able to suplement troops with food production anymore. Which means essence needs to be more easily aquired since currently it would be the only way to create manpower for vodyani (and population). 29/turn at start of the game just doesn't cut it, and while the leecher is decent, you can loose it easily (hello pirates my old friends) plus they will be nr. 1 target for enemy empires (they can take it down even with a scout).

You can't realistically defend a leecher in early game (with what, with scouts spam? meaning you build nothing but scouts which don't scout but just try to babysit 1 ship?), it's sort of a fire and forget pray for the best :)

I gave up to even include Vodyani as AI faction in my SP games. They simply can't do anything whatsoever and remain a 1 planet even in mid game (~150-200 turns on endless speed) because other factions will expand faster, bully them, destroy their leechers and newly constructed arks because of superior fleets / tech etc.

Sure playing as them with a good start you can become a behemoth but that is so conditional and influenced by so many factors that is now - from my POV - more of a flavor faction than a solid competitor.

Vodyani played properly is a monster. The AI sucks at the "properly" part. The likelihood of startving to death on basically 90% of systems in the early game is only a small part of why the AI sucks at them, and probably the only thing keeping them from replacing Horatio as craziest MP faction ever >.<

Autochthon wrote:

Vodyani played properly is a monster. The AI sucks at the "properly" part. The likelihood of startving to death on basically 90% of systems in the early game is only a small part of why the AI sucks at them, and probably the only thing keeping them from replacing Horatio as craziest MP faction ever >.<

I know, I play them a lot. And the start is more important than anything else. What can you do with only 1 system? You have crappy production and research, you have no means of stopping other factions from settling systems around you, pirate lairs spawning on a system you wanted to grab? Too bad, everything is greatly delayed.

There is nothing you can do if your only pop dies before you can build drone networks. You will have to spend 500 essence to create a new one which is a huge delay in getting out your 2nd Arc which costs 1600 essence.

I've really never had all my population die before even Drone Networks is online. I'll start some Vodyani games tonight and see if I can reproduce. 

Dragar wrote:

I've really never had all my population die before even Drone Networks is online. I'll start some Vodyani games tonight and see if I can reproduce. 

Try it on endless speed please, otherwise it's not an issue since you can make the drone network in 4 turns or less. And make sure you are 1 planet start, if it's 2 or 3 you probably won't be in negative food. Cheers!

Ahhh. It's only on Endless speed. That's why I never noticed it. Still, I should see starvation in other speeds? 

It's not the same. Speed only affects how fast you build / research, everything else is normal - like food or lack of. If as Vodyani you start with 1 planet and get -1 food, on normal speed it takes 6 turns to loose that population, and only 4 turns to build your drone network. On endless you still loose the pop in 6 turns, but it takes you 8 turns AT MINIMUM to build drone network. So you will always lose the pop no matter what law you pass or how good you breakdance :D

Easy to fix then right?

Anelyn wrote:

Easy to fix then right?

As I said, I don't really see what's going on. It looks like some odd calculation with food consumption and gamespeed (along with Gargantuan Population). This isn't the situation you described, as gamespeed is clearly affecting things. 

That's why I said it should be easy to fix, so that playing on slower speeds is same as on normal speed. As in, you won't loose population on 1 planet start.

The fix is to either decouple Vodyani growth from food (which makes sense) or to make food costs scale with difficulty (which makes sense but changes the mechanic itself).

Yeah either, because it's really a BUG that I can play this race on normal game speed just fine, but on endless speed I can't because of reasons mentioned earlier in this thread.

It happened to me last time, my starting system only have one planet colonized. Other 3 planets are 2 Lava and 1 Ash. With no nearby suitable systems or Minor to leech. I just take a risk with develope new pops and straight to Ash-Lava tech and foods for self sustain. Able to colonize second system at 40+ish turns.

I have a habit of detaching and re-attaching my starting ark, whichresets the starvation somehow. Don't know why.

- Some solutions are: make essence pop growth the only way to grow. (don't like that one)

-Make the vodyani homeworld have enough food to keep growth at +99 turns on turn 0. (decent solution)

-Make leeching action give food bonus