Behemoths are awesome, tweaks I can see improving the experience:

-Some sort of malus while researching the initial Obliterator tech if you're the first one researching it. Empire approval or %science. Could be implemented as a Feat to be consistent with the research mechanics. This would create a prisoner's dilemma situation where in PvP we would at least try diplomacy before blowing each other up asap.

-Something to counter the "fire 2 oblits at the same system at the same time" strat. Have the shield persist for a couple turns after eating a shot, perhaps.

-The game needs influence sinks, how about one that lets you mine planets owned by other players?

In general, I like behemoths for their non-military uses more than their military ones. This is because they are the first ship type that can actually be economically-focused in nature; we already have a bunch of ship types that fight, but before behemoths we didn't have anything that interacted with the galaxy in a constructive manner. That was, I think, something big that ES2 was missing, which behemoths are a partial answer for. 

The most important aspect of that, to me, is that they make special nodes more interesting and relevant. Barring crazy high influence generation, late-game development, or playing as the Unfallen, special nodes are something that are theoretically cool but usually didn't have a point in my games. With behemoths, they are more relevant because you can actually use them. Still, they are not generally something to fight over. To me, anything that makes the galactic map have more of an impact on gameplay is a plus; one of the biggest things that I missed when moving from EL to ES2 (though it's a completely different game) is how the map had nuance to it, relevance. Even now there is this aspect of emptiness that I get when playing ES2, but that's another matter entirely that I think has to do with the difference between a galactic 4x and a historical/fantasy 4x.

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I don't hate anything about behemoths. I've never used an obliterator or been the target of one, but the way that the behemoth system is designed seems to give them a massive advantage over their supposed counter, citadels. They seem disproportionately strong.

I like the idea of citadels but they never seem worth it to me. The bonuses they provide and the idea behind them (making single systems into strategic map features) are not strong enough to really consider using. When I do use them, the impact is not too noticeable; when my enemies use them, they only make a system slightly harder to conquer. They are not disproportionately strong.

The third military specialization (juggernaut?) is fun to use, but doesn't seem significantly better or worse than using normal military hulls for their CP value. Their "destroy every other ship" ability seems a bit OP in a tight race against a competent enemy, but overall it's nowhere near the game changing potential of an obliterator.

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Here's my crazy idea:

Instead of - or in addition to - the "behemoth cap" construction requirement, you need a "behemoth hull" resource to build behemoths.

This is mostly relevant to my goal of increasing the importance of the galactic map, special nodes, etc. and probably isn't balanced. If anything it's a boon to the Hissho, because it would make behemoths more limited and harder to get.

Behemoths: added requirement to construction: behemoth hull, a rare and non-reproducible resource that can be found scattered across the galaxy.

(they basically look like grayed out behemoths with no modules)

Modern-day empires lack the industrial knowledge and capacity to create behemoth hulls of their own (until the very late game), and must scavenge for them throughout the galaxy. These hulls can be found in various locations - in orbit around black holes and other special nodes, buried and overgrown in planetary ruins, or functioning as pirate lairs, strongholds, or flagships. The Academy possesses several, and will rarely offer one as a reward for completion of one of their competitive quests.

To reclaim a hull, you have to board it, gain control over the hull (usually this means you invade it with manpower), then bring it back to an owned system, where you then have access to use the hull in Behemoth construction. Only systems with a hull in orbit are able to build behemoths.

Access to behemoths becomes a zero-sum game, and players are encouraged to compete over them - violently, if necessary - to secure the hulls. The discovery of a hull is announced to all empires that have relations with the discoverer, and the hull's location can also be shared (if one is willing to invest the influence in espionage).

When a behemoth is destroyed through combat, it's hull remains in-system, waiting for reclamation. 

Totaly rework obliterators, they are now limited range and instead of fireing a shot at a system, do a constant bombardment that reduces system defence, once defence is at zero you can obliterate it for a cost. Gives clear counterplay: go get the obliterator before it gets you, and it makes whatever node its sitting on stratigicly important, which gives us a good reason to use all those nodes with battle effects. Generic FIDSI boosts to orbited systems has to go, the thing that makes economic behemoths fun and interesting is non colonization based econemy, the resources for orbiting certian nodes is great, buff them if you need to, but get rid of, dont just nerf, get rid of the generic fids, because if those are ever the optimal choice than behemoths are just less fun to use.

[A]: Adjustment Suggestions

1. Allow the players to scrap Behemoths and their specializations. Lots of players, especially first-time players, said such restriction to be inconvenient or disturbing.
   • If (1.) is not possible, at least the Citadel should be allowed to dismantle, as players can acquire it through conquests.
   • If the scrap ability itself is not an option, make the Citadel destroyed on conquest or give it some Behemoth upkeep reduction (around -30%). Currently there is no way to control the upkeep increased by acquiring the Citadel.
2. The defender should be given some tools to resist the 'double tap' of obliterators, especially for citadels which is the only way to counter the obliteration.
   • Idea A) If the system possesses the Citadel, the shield should last for the end of turn when get hit by obliterators. Otherwise, citadel improvement doing such thing should be added. (for those who does not have the Citadel, nothing changes)
   • Idea B) The shield (system improvement) will not be destroyed certainly when hit by obliterators. It will be determined by RNG.
   • Idea C) Allow defenders to recover the losses easily after getting hit. (like 'spend N% of industry costs of destroyed buildings on recovery project within m turns') 
3. Allow core crackers to destroy the Citadel. Not every wants the Citadel on conquest. Plus, the core cracker is losing its position on obliterators.
4. AI should be more aggressive when they detect the obliterator launches. Implementing the MAD(Mutually Assured Destruction) attitude toward the obliterator is needed.
5. Also, AI should be more afraid of the other empires having obliterators if they don't have one. I think the only way to make obliterator less disturbing to those who fear the losses from them, it is making them more effective as peace-time diplomatic tools.
6. Allow unique planets to be recovered or make them immune to obliteration. Currently there is no way to recover the unique planets, so I've heard lots of complaints about it.
   • Plus, if possible, make empire-wide unique system improvements to be rebuilt when destroyed or make them immune to destruction. Otherwise, make unique improvements rebuildable when not possessing one and increase their build cost exponentially like behemoth.
7. Give proper ways to recover the planets losses for the vodyani. Some vodyani players complained about restriction of recovery.
8. Instead of making C3 center double the upkeep, require 1/2/4/8/16... C3 centers to increase the behemoth possession limit. This could be more intuitive while restricting large empires from having too much behemoths.

[B]: Ideas on Behemoth tweak (or rework)

Added : For Obliterator chasing, you need to be more proactive rather than camping near constellation choke points, it can be worthwhile to have a few scout ships that throw probes towards enemy systems to see if / when they make a Behemoth.

Aside from all that, they don't come out to play until mid-late / late game, when you should be worrying less about individual systems anyway. Shield your systems, Citadel your home system, and don't worry too much about end game planet destruction. 

Does it suck to have a good system wiped out by an Obliterator? Yes, but that just means you need to be way more proactive on what your opponents are doing, especially if you are at war with them. (link)

1. Add a Citadel improvement which detects Obliterator launches in range: There is some ideas saying obliterator launch should be automatically declared. But that's too punishing. Obliterator is already not that good to use because of its time required to arrive on its target. And I personally believe that there is already lots of ways to monitor & prevent the obliterator launches if you give some efforts. (see quoted material above) In addition, ES2 is now facing espionage expansion, which will give lots of tools to do such thing more effectively & extensively. However, despite of these things, if I have to add some obliterator launch detection, I think it should be on the Citadel improvement.
2. Add wreck to the Behemoths & its specializations when destroyed (or scrapped), allowing them to be recovered by the empire possessing that system: I have to admit that this could incur massive balance issues. But I think this could be fun. Maybe a player could decide to produce some behemoths and keeping them at safe place as a wreckage. Plus, this could make players to keep behemoths at safer places like capital or the system protected by the Citadel, effectively restricting the places obliterators can move safely.
3. Rework the roles: Obliterator becomes anti-fleet weapon which blows all the fleet in that system and gives some collateral damages. Juggernauts can be upgraded to destroy all the planets at once. Citadel can defend the Obliterator beam completely and relocated with some costs. Intended on making obliterators closer to the nukes.

Disclaimer: Some ideas written above is not my own but ones suggested on Korean ES2 Community several times. +There could be some conflicts or contradictions between ideas.

Last but not the least, I have to say that I think system shields or the Citadel should not be allowed to defend way too many star systems with 100% damage reduction. Doing so will only destroy the notion of MAD, resulting complete domination by the leading empire, or make Obliterators useless. Either way, it will make Supremacy DLC really bland as it harms the catch-up mechanism of behemoth. By the same token, Obliterators should not be nerfed way too much. As we can see in real world, ICBMs did not doomed the world and not even called OP. Restricting the ability & range of destruction of the Obliterators will hurt those who don't have lots of obliterators, as it restricts their retaliation ability severely.

If you play Sin Of Solar Empire Rebellion, all players will receive a notification if Titan are built.

I like Obliterator addition, just give others warning if it was built, it location and where its target.

At least it will give the target some time to prepare, Vodyani can't repair damaged planets.

I find it strange that there is no diplomatic fallout from using a Obliteror. I can even fire it at my own allies!

IceGremlin wrote:

[Game of Behemoths]

The point that the game devolves into behemoth production and management is backed up by looking at the tech wheel: there are a lot of behemoth related technologies.

BigBraddWolfe wrote:

What I dislike about scientific behemoths specifically

I think Amplitude could create a new category of ship modules called Engines, exclusivelly for modules wich provides movement points. That way, you could use movement points modules and keep support modules for science boosting on Behemoths.

SableShrike wrote:

Adder007USA wrote:

I would suggest a rework of what obliterators do.  I suggest making them function like an improved core-cracker dreadnought, but Instead of completely wrecking the entire system, make it so they kill off the entire population.  Something like a virus bomb or radiation blast, rather than this whole blow-up-the-sun thing.  But again, make it so that they have to be in system in order to fire off their shot.

"Obliterators remove all population on a system."  I vote we change them to that!  I'd just make sure it's like a Core Cracker in that the Oblit has to be in-System and charge up for a few turns.  There never should be something this strong without a tactical counter (you need to make plays, not buildings).

I upvote this. And maybe when all population get erradicated, the systems gets an heavy malus anomaly, simulating radiation or whatever...

Hah, thanks for the support.

Again, I would argue it should also wipe the slate clean on everything; terraforming, structures, etc.  You could theoretically use it on your own pop if you wanted to commit genocide on a particular population, but there should be a huge approval penalty for doing this in addition to losing everything else.  On the plus side; if you saw the footnote in my initial suggestion, maybe it also resets depletion?

IceGremlin wrote:

Firstly, I agree wholeheartedly with Daynen, the concepts are all great on paper. I do disagree with their 4th point about automatic declarations of war, but the AI should definitely be able to react much more violently and swiftly when they detect who launched a shot.

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Honestly, I agree with everything IceGremlin said. There are some mechanics shared between all factions that are pretty much broken ATM. I know that we should look into Behemoth specific feedback, but sometimes those problems are linked.  C3 Centers are unintuitive, don't make a lot of sense lorewise and are not very fun to play with. But at the same time, they are one of the few ways to spend dust mid-late game. If the economy was fixed and everything was resonably priced, we wouldn't  need C3 Centers to counterbalance. 

I will focus my feedback on Economic Behemoths. I don't really like military behemoths, most of the problens have already been adressed, and Economic Behemoths are just way more fun. 

Tell us what you like about Behemoths.

1. They interact with the map in a different way than just colonizing 
2. They can be really flexible, you can send them into different tasks, retrofit as needed. Fit your empires needs at the moment, etc
3. They can create points of conflict betweenr your empire to fight over

Tell us what you dislike about Behemoths.

1. C3 Centers. They are unintuitive, don't make sense lorewise, and not fun overall. They make sense right now because economy is broken and most empires have more dust than they should. 
2. They hardly ever create points of conflict between players. The potencial is there, it just doesn't occur because of the nature of the upgrades.
3. I don't like how behemoths are tied to the tech tree. The HP boost makes previous upgrades useless. The 1 behemoth each 3 technologies is leads you into a all in on behemoth tech. I feel that the science tree was perfect before. 
4. I don't like to stack a lot of the same modules into the same behemoth. They should be more flexible, usually I put a lot of speed boosts into my behemoth until it arrives the special node I need and them retrofit into full stacking modules. Limit it to 3 support modules, make support modules non stackable and buff them. So we can have one speed boost and 2 different functions per module. If possible, remake mining probes so we can only use one function at time.

Tell us about your (potentially crazy) ideas that could make them better.

1. Give us an Altar of Auriga  from endless legend shifters with all behemoths technologies. Instead of pearls, we colect Behemoth artifacts throught quests, curiosities, unique planets and/or a flat percentage from science production. You can trade behemoths artifacts, as loot from oposing behemoths. We woundn't need it on the tech tree, we wouldn't neet C3 Centers, it would be way more fun colecting artifacts than trying to no go bankrupt. It could give us a new tech to fight obliterators. It is cool as fuck. 

I know it's hard to do such a big change after the release. But it would honestly make this DLC go from my least favorite between endless legend and space2 to my top 3 easily. 
 

So many great ideas in this thread. Devs going to be busy :)

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

Thank you all for your feedback. I appreciate your participation in this.

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I think the C3 Centers are also disliked by a great part of the community, but there is no consensus on a solution for them.

I really apreciate your honesty. It's really good that we can on the same page as the devs. But at same time, I think you guys should really think about the benefits of fixing this DLC. It's not that it have fundamental flaws that make it impossible for behemoths to work in endless space 2. They just need some adicional work to actually fit better into the game. The potential is there!



I don't know how much work it would take/if it's possible at all. But we already have a structure really similar to the "Altar of Auriga" the ground army upgrade window.

We could make another tab and put all current improvements there, unlocking them with Dust, Influence and/or strategic resources.

There are 19 behemoth techs in the game. One of them enable behemoths, so we would need to acomodate 18. The ground army interface has 5 slots for improvements each line. So we can easily acomodate 15 techs. The remaning 3 could be left in the tech tree or we put 6 techs per line (we have space, but I don't know how hard it would be).

I don't understand a lot of programming, so I can't say how hard it would be. But I feel it would improve the DLC a lot.