Daynen wrote:

I like that behemoths are an idea and that they created things like uncolonized resource mining, fleet-killer battleships and star destroying doomsday weapons.  Cool stuff--on paper.  Unfortunately, as has been expressed by a few, this is probably the first piece of work by Ampliteam that's been dubbed a general failure.  I appreciate you looking into that for solutions; while the wheels turn slowly, it says a lot that you're willing to look at the problem objectively.  Thank you.

The first problem with behemoth implementation is that we have three "general" hulls and three specializations.  Why?  Aren't the three regular hulls rather "specialized" already by definition?  It kind of elicits a frown from those trying to understand the mechanic the first time.  Add on the fact that the "military" hull actually has different module slots and the whole thing is just dumbfounding.  I said it in beta and I'll say it again:  we only need ONE regular behemoth hull.

The next problem is how many arbitrary rules surround the initial use of behemoths.

A: They can't merge with a fleet--command points be damned.  It's fine that they take up a whopping 10 CP, but once we have the CP, there's really no good reason to force us to split them off.  We have specialize them into juggernauts first.  This always felt unnecessarily clunky to me.

B: Citadels cease to be behemoths, yet still count against the behemoth support limit--while providing bonuses that aren't very well conveyed.

C: Obliterators, while expensive to use, are completely devastating, have no repercussions for their use beyond the resource cost and most importantly, are impossible to answer once fired.  Citadel shields must ALREADY be in place to be a halfway effective counter; otherwise that system is gone and there's ZERO you can do about it.  I mean you even had to give the Unfallen a FREE shield because of this.  That should've been a warning sign.

My first suggestion is what it was back in beta: we only need one unspecialized hull.  The point is that it's general purpose and NOT specialized.  Get rid of two of the hulls and make one actual general purpose behemoth.

Proposal two: Let regular behemoths merge with fleets.  Please just get rid of this awkward exception.  Make the bonuses from economics and scientifics an activated thing so they're forced to stop and split from a fleet to provide bonuses.  If you want to merge them and move them, they can't also sit and provide FIDSI, but this removes a weird arbitrary rule and simplifies gameplay a bit by allowing behemoths to just merge with fleets like every other ship.  Getting over 10 CP should be enough of an accomplishment that we're allowed to protect our behemoths by merging them without having to make them juggernauts first.

Idea three: Instead of a "Citadel" why not just make the planetary shield an actual specialized behemoth hull?  It might need its own art assets and all that, but this would allow you to pack up the shield and move it.  You'd still have behemoths, making an accurate count of your behemoth limit more intuitive.  You'd also be able to play some mind games with your shield locations and ship counts, allowing for not only more counterplay to obliterators, but better strategic counterplay in general.  the roving clans in EL could pack up entire CITIES, so why not a shield generating ship?

Thought four: Obliterators should either be unusuable without a declaration of war or should automatically cause it.  There are so many things you can do that piss off the galaxy AND your own empire automatically for the slightest offense, but detonating an entire star system is perfectly fine?  Even for the peace-loving unfallen and the economically minded Lumeris?  Come on now...the Empire got the entire galaxy rebelling against it before they blew up a single PLANET with the Death Star.  We're busting entire star systems and no one bats an eye.  There needs to be consequences for attempting to commit genocide from the other end of the galaxy.

Flash of inspiration five: Make empire-specific behemoth skins.  Create a cool little content add-on for a couple dollars or something.  Do good work on it and people would buy it, guaranteed.  Maybe throw in some behemoth-specific quests or something to sweeten the deal.

Overall, behemoths just didn't end up as cool as they sounded due to some awkward implementation.  If we can correct that, the vision of behemoths will become much more cohesive and their potential laid out more clearly.  THEN we can figure out what other cool stuff to do with them (possibly in future expansions? nudge nudge wink wink)

I'm sure we're way past any major changes to gameplay but thought these were some nice points he brought up. 

In my last game I had an "ally" blow up the U.E. home system while I was in the midst of invading it. Losing one of my best fleets along with the entire system with one obliterator shot.

If that smug jerk Zelevas had been vaporized along with it, I could have probably shrugged it off but he popped right back on screen with more threats. 

We were in late game mop-up mode and it just didn't make much sense to use it. (the Choir were the perpetrator of all people)

Personally, I rarely use behemoths other than science and economic and this was the first time in 400+ hours I've seen the AI use it. I was mostly curious how others felt about the obliterator. Good, bad or indifferent?

I think if they had to get within a node of their target it would make a bit more reasonable imo. And stronger repercussions for mass genocide.

Having Obliterator one system away leaves almost no chance to prepare for the shot. Didn't you see incoming projectile while invading?

Sublustris wrote:

Having Obliterator one system away leaves almost no chance to prepare for the shot. Didn't you see incoming projectile while invading?

No visual on the missle whatsoever. It's the first time I've seen the AI use it, so I thought it might have been by design. Just a warning when the Choir fired it and the location it came from.

Gave me a choice to denounce it, which I did.

It was in the end game, U.E. had maybe 4 systems left and couldn't put a fleet together to stop anyone. The Choir had been fighting Horatio so I assumed they would be the target.

I'm not sour about losing a fleet, it just felt like odd timing to use it.  As we would have had Supremacy in 10 turns or so. I dropped out of the alliance and just took a science victory.