That was exactly my problem as well, I had limited experience with sci-fi systems, so when I had the opportunity I gained some, and even now I only know enough to know that I know nothing. But at least that way the possibilities remain limitless.

The thing is about making a thing is that even if you do the best conceivable job, it can only be popular among so many people, so my aim is to make a system that does ES2 justice and I'm not the only one who likes it.

And here's one right off the bat. See, I'm not a fan of, nor am I good at, systems that randomly create a setting. To me that's like leaving it to RNJesus to decide what kind of bed I'll sleep in. On the other hand, I can see the value in giving a toolkit for GMs to craft their own ES2 setting. You'll have to find someone else for that but it does sound like a good expansion to the core rulebook.

See, the thing about Dust is that if it hits you and everything works out well, then you'll have reached a level of existence that's like playing an Exalted character in D&D: not off the charts, sure, but it's still a massive difference. Additionally, it makes Dust trivial, instead of the world-altering tech and tool it is. To my understanding, the Endless setting has this theme of youngling civilisations growing up to find that the world they inhabit is one, massive tomb of a much older and much more advanced culture, with all their leftovers, both wondrous and horrifying, littered across the land/stars. With that in mind, I'd rather that Dust is something the players discover, something that becomes a big deal for them.

What I aim to do here is to provide a core rulebook that can then be expanded upon to fit different takes on the themes and styles, like the world generator and the high Dust approach. Once that's done, or perhaps in parallel, I want to expand the existing lore on each faction, again not to claim that what I'm saying is in any way "correct", but to provide an example of what could each faction be like. It'll take a while, sure, but a man needs something to look forward to in life.

Anyways, the second I have something we can have a debate on I'll post it here, probably in a .pdf format.

Best of luck with that, mate! Just remember: don't try to invent the wheel, someone probably came up with something close to what you need long ago, so it's generally best to check for what systems for randomised setting generation exist, learn about your options, see what works out in practice, so when you start working you have a frame of reference and quite possibly something to copypaste (to a degree).

That's the idea. In the long run I want to set up a Discord for this, so we can set up a workshop and rooms for testing groups but first I want to produce something that's ready to be torn apart and reassembled over and over again.

I find it ominous that this thread came to life just when I started actually writing things, now that I've done some meaningful research into sci-fi systems. Allow me to report on what I've been doing, then respond to the thoughts that came up.

Since I've posted here, I've been fortunate that I could test almost all 40K RPGs (Rogue Trader being the only one I couldn't but I don't really mind), as well as the SAGA edition of Star Wars RPG. Initially I thought that Dark Heresy 2E would be the best candidate but the % system starts to buckle after a couple thousand XP, and the lethality is so skewed that either you curbstomp everything or you're blown into smithereens. SAGA is gentler but not so much so that it'd make combat the go-to solution for your problems. However, there are a couple things there that could use some tinkering, and in some cases 40K simply did a better job I believe. I'm also superficially familiar with Shadowrun 3E but I couldn't get my group to play that (or any other SR editions, sadly), so what inspiration I can draw from that is limited.

What I have right now is a SAGA core with a couple thoughts and things borrowed from 40K and SR. My rule of thumb is that if SAGA did it right, don't fix it for the sake of fixing, but I am going through the core rulebook, paragraph by paragraph, and taking notes of what needs changing. It's not in a state where I could present it to you but the second it is, I will. I'm truly sorry for being so vague but I don't want to say that "it's going to be like this and this" until I know with absolute certainty that that's how it'll be. I can, however, give you my guidelines.

From a purely mechanical standpoint, there will be no classes, you simply gain levels and each level gives you a Feat, a Talent, or Attribute points; your HP, your Defenses, your BAB, and your Skill point gain are all up to you. The exact details are a WIP but the goal is to give you the most customisation options, conveyed in a way that it doesn't feel overwhelming.

From a fluff perspective, a lot of expansions are needed. What works for a 4X game is not enough for an RPG, where you need a lot more info to navigate the world you're in. This means that each and every Major Faction will have details on its culutre, governance, science, physiology, and so on. Minor Factions can come once the Major ones are complete.

Looking at our PCs, I think that they should start out as normal people, and only later on would Dust enhancement become a thing. Consider that the Heroes we recruit in ES2 lead entire fleets or govern solar systems, and if our PCs reach that point they might as well play ES2. What a PnP RPG can do well are personal stories, smaller scale operations; anything bigger than that will soon become a bookkeeping and time-soaking nightmare that nobody wants.

I've been running a heavily homebrewed sci-fi DnD 5e campaign for the past year or so and I keep coming back to wanting to make a version for Endless Space. My fear is that I don't have enough PnP experience--I have been playing 5e for about 4 years, but haven't tried any other systems. I've watched groups play other systems on twitch and youtube, but that isn't quite the same thing. That said, I love game design and have a ton of ideas for a PnP Endless Space thing:

• The players will be playing Heroes. They need to be powerful and awe inspiring.
• Dust accumulation and usage is my first instinct in how the leveling system would work. The more Dust you use, the more you level up. Dust powers your abilities, whether they are extreme feats of strength or impossible apparent-magic, and also acts as a form of currency.
• We would take the somewhat broad hero categories (Seeker, Guardian, Overseer, Counselor) from the game and combine them with the chosen race to decide overall skillset just like the game does. The emphasis would be in choices made when levelling, instead of choices made at level 1.
• We would take heavy inspiration from the faction system from Stars Without Number to figure out the meta "4X" stuff that is a bit beyond the scope of a PnP RPG. The faction system from that game really is phenomenal.
• The notion of the Academy would be important and central. It is necessary to explain why a Craver might be working with a Vaulter and so on.
• There should be space for PCs engaging in the larger scale narrative or smaller scale personal questing and such.
• Finally, the most important part to me is engaging with the community. G2G has been integral to the development of Endless Games and I don't see any reason why that should stop, but we would need the blessing of Amplitude.

I am pretty serious about making this my next project. If anyone that sees this would be interested in participating, send me a message. 

I've always wanted to work on a system which has a character levelling system similar to the ones found in the Endless series, I just feel like having something built from the ground up with that and other factors in mind would just be incredible. Given the opportunity, I would love to work on something like this, since writing tabletop related things have been a passion of mine for years.

I've been writing rules for an Endless Legend setting for D&D 5E, so as a worldbuilding and tabletop nerd, I am so down with this.

However, using Dark Heresy 2E as a base is a little sticky, since Warhammer is a cosmic horror and psuedo-magical genre. I can't see Insanity and Corruption playing a mechanical role in the Endless Space Universe. That, and Dark Heresy doesn't account for racial statistics since everyone is automatically considered Human. Only homeworlds are taken into account, which can have an impact, but it'd probably be smaller than your overall race and culture.

I am just spitballing here, because I'm no expert in sci-fi tabletop by any means, but there's gotta be a better system to use as a base than 2E Dark Heresy.

I did actually consider using Dark Heresy 2E's system and the more I think about it the more it fits. I'll probably have to tweak a few things to adjust it to ES2 but most of the work will be writing all the extra setting information that's necessary to start a game or your own homebrewing. I really like the idea that in ES2 you're "writing canon" in a sense, but I also like the idea of being given a setting to work within, and since these are not mutually exclusive, I'll just do both.

I'll get back to you when I have something (it'll take a while so don't hold your breath). I'll probably use a .pdf format with a dropbox link to it.

I would very much be behind this, even if it's an unofficial fanhack of an already built system.

In terms of a system I tend to think of Fantasy Flight's Warhammer stuff, since that also covers Sci-Fi and Fantasy settings, so I could run EL and/or ES campaigns.

Something that could do both settings would be swell, I'd feel.

I could be a real cool thing. I really like setting, bit 4x games is not my cup of tea (of course It does not prevent me from buying all of thei games). 

This thread is relevant to my interests.

I'm glad you feel that way! Since this is a hobby project and IRL is the way it is, I can't give you a timetable or even a rough idea of when I'll be able to present a playtest-ready .pdf, only the old Blizzard phrase of "it'll be done when it's done". I don't want to waste anyone's time with a badly edited wall of text that even I get confused by. "Do or do not, there is no try" is my guiding principle on this one.

Blizzard has the right of it.  Trying to rush something helps ensure it gets out the door, but it doesn't guarantee any sort of quality.  Frankly, I've had my fill of timetables and rushed products in this world; it's refreshing to see someone take their time instead of trying to race to meet a deadline.

I'm planning on running a game in the ES2 universe using the Genesys system. Mechanics and such don't really bother me as much as the amount of lore hunting I'm gonna need to do in the game to get a somewhat clear picture of how things are going to run at the character level. Right now, I have no idea how I might implement heroes mechanically because I have no idea how powerful they are when compared to a normal sentient species (PCs won't be dust heroes), or how prevalent the use of dust for magic-like effects is (is dust tech used in an Ardent Mages kinda way or is it exclusively used by heroes?). If the wiki was more in-depth, finding a system the fits the mechanics wouldn't be all that hard.

I think the best way for you to handle that is to say that you're playing after the onset of interstellar expansion but before Dust is discovered or understood. That way you can introduce Dust when you want to, and not purely as the purchasable godmode button it is, but as a decisive plot element, just like it is in ES2.

With that settled, character level is decided by the kind of game you want to run: heroic, where PCs outperform non-key NPCs at every turn to save the day every day, or "normal", where NPCs and PCs are generated mechanically using the same rules and options.

I share your frustration with how little lore there actually is in ES2 when it comes to the finer details. Sure, there're a lot of overarching bits that provide the framework, but that framework was built for a 4x game, not an RPG, and the difference is very, very telling. There's your case, for example: we know that our Heroes in ES2 snorted a nice chunk of Dust and miraculously survived, thus becoming, in practice, transcendant beings within their own race, allowing them to be the gamechangers that they are. However, how does that translate to an RPG, which inherently deals with a smaller, more personal scope than a 4x game? And how is Dust used on a day-to-day basis? Seeing how a few people became demigods via Dust exposure, what effect did that have on the general populace and its leadership?

What's worse, you have races like the Vodyani, who start the game with a decent understanding of Dust, the Cravers, who were made by the Endless and thus could easily have a clearer understanding of Dust than even the Vodyani (depending on how you spin their relationship to tech in general), and the Riftborn, who bring with them a level of scientific understanding that could very well be beyond even that of the Endless in a number of fields, which may or may not allow them to use Dust in ways even the Endless couldn't imagine, simply because they experienced the natural laws of this universe as natives, as opposed to the Riftborn, who experienced it as unwilling newcomers, coming from an entirely alien universe with vastly different natural laws, which allows them to manipulate time and space in ways and with such ease that it is on par, or maybe even beyond the capabilities of the Endless. How does their tech relate to that of the less exotic races, with special regards to how they handle Dust, the "I Win" button of ES2?

Now put all that in an RPG context where PC power levels need to be balanced so that no playable race become so OP that it renders another obsolete, where equipment options again need to be within the realm of reason, and where the GM must be able to finely tune the difficulty of encounters and situations (combat, social, and financial), all the while being able to maintain the atmosphere of ES2 (which is in and of itself a rather nebulous concept).

That's why GMing an ES2 game with the current resources available is such a herculean task, and that's why I'm taking so long on the rules and the accompanying lore expansions. That's also why I can deeply empathise with your situation.

You pretty much touched on every issue I have to sort out. On the other hand, it's not like my tabletop game is an officially sponsored project. I'm not actually bound at the hip to whatever the unrevealed canon is for those things. Also, while I intend to put in my due diligence so that the brilliance and creativity Amplitude put into this setting shines through to my players (Who are completely ignorant of the game), I'll also have to make some judgement calls as I put the setting together in genesys. I'm already bouncing some ideas in my head for the various races, though I'll start the game in the United Empire with imperial PCs, since that seems to be the most accessible point of entry. For example, from reading the comics, I think it would be silly to attempt to make every race a PC race. While they are balanced as factions for the game, It seems evident that, at the character level, an average Craver drone will ruin the day of large number of humanoids, and that a Riftborn body is probably capable of shenanigans that screw the balance of things. Though Dust might be the great equalizer when it comes to heroes.

As for heroes and Dust, I'm slowly reaching the point where I can make a call on how I might implement them mechanically (and narratively) based on the bios and tooltips in the game. Oddly, the superpowers people get from Dust seem quite specific in some instances, and holistic in others. It's hard to reconcile the Photobomber with Jennifer Rach or Eighth of Fifteenth of Karval. In the end, as I said, I'll have to make a call, and if stuff comes out that contradicts what I'm using, c'est la vie.

I'm in the same boat, I know that I'm going to take a lot of flak for the calls I'll make for the lore expansion. I'll try to lube the experience as much as I can by being as straightforward and open as I can be but in the end, I want to create a framework that even the dissatisfied can use to create their own flavour of the setting.

Since I'm building a classless system, the way I found it best to work with each species is to make the race a class. Look at it this way: the Craver is the classic Fighter/Barbarian, the Riftborn is the classic Wizard, the Vodyani a Death Knight with the PR and visuals of Clerics/Paladins, and so on. The asymmetric faction design of Amplitude makes an RPG adaptation of ES2 much more lifelike than many other settings I've seen because, in the end, life is not about everyone having the same tools, it's about everyone having a choice. While there are two very distinct leagues in Major Factions (Vodyani, Craver, Unfallen, Riftborn vs Humans, Sophons, Lumeris, Horatio), you can use sci-fi to help you even the score. Riftborn are not immune to guns, Vodyani don't go Gul'dan on peoples' life force en masse, and so on. If you limit your players to a single species or a single league then it's not too difficult to GM for them, but the second you go full spectrum it becomes very difficult.

From a game design perspective, principally this is a simulationism vs gamism problem, but the key here is that said problem is not a slider, not a mutually shared cake, but two entirely different things. Like LEGO bits: some fit in some places but don't work out, some don't fit at all, but in the end, it's not about putting something together, it's about putting something good together, and even then it's just based on your own taste. This is where, I believe, you have to make a number of gamist choices, so that you can have amazingly heartwarming scenes like that Craver fistbumping that Sophon in one of the official artworks. The end goal is to create a system that can facilitate an enriching roleplay experience, not a theme park ride.

I agree. The restrictions I'm using are mostly so the player can acclimate to the setting, being organically introduced different elements as the campaign progresses. I have some ideas in the back of my head for Vodyani, Riftborn etc. Since we seem to be on the same boat, I guess when I have something concrete, I'll post it here. Maybe we can bounced ideas off of each other.