Sorry I didn't post sooner been busy with other things



@ Autocthon

If you're getting your butt handed to you on newbie the simple fact is that you're not all that great, and therefore are very unlikely to have done any for of extensive testing, unless you're playing Harmony, then it's because Harmony is nearly brokenly weak right now and requires a massive amount of experience to keep up with the AI.



Note: I can win games as Harmony on Normal.

No I'm not, your post is very ignorant, The AI is out-preforming the player in multiple ways to a degree that is well above fairness due to how the GAME IS IMPLEMENTED AND STRUCTURED , It is focused on Harmony but is also and issue for other races but you can abuse some things to win but its is a SYSTEMATIC PROBLEM for the whole game.



Most people in this thread don't realise that I have studied games design and I know what I'm talking about and you can't just deflect it with idiocy or "its not my problem, so no problem exists mentality"



So what you can win on normal that is you and is HEAVILY BIASED ON WHAT OPTIONS YOU ARE PICKING the RNG of the maps your getting.



Your argument is a logical fallacy, it is exactly like saying "I'm have not been murdered, so murder must not exist.



@ Ail

What you say simply isn't true. The only advantage of the AI on Newbie-Normal is that they have slightly less Expansion-Disapproval.



They don't have faster build-times, they don't have higher FIDS and they don't have boni to fleet-defence and damage!

Infact on Newbie they have massively reduced fleet-defense and -damage as well as slighly reduced FIDS.

The AI have really low defence might taking no to little damage from higher might ships and have 10+ fleets by 30-40 turn on normal speed and expanding to every system like a plague and taking all planets on those systems.



With hero fleets breaking the game due to how the new maths system works. (More than they did in classic)

The game is about gaining knowledge and applying this knowledge to get better at it, not about blaming ones shortcomings on the game.



For example: Have you ever touched the Food/Science-(Harmony) or Taxrate-(other Races)Slider? It's extremely important to properly adjust it on a regular basis in order to do well.

Yes I use this This, knowledge is pointless if the AI is MATHEMATICALLY OUTPERFORMING ME IN EVERY ASPECT.



Their ships production is better (more systems, taller systems, Harmony building issues)

Their expansion is better (more systems, taller systems, disharmony and from my view immunity to happiness)

Their Heroes GIVE MASSIVE BONI to a Fleet or a SYSTEM



In my experience, i'm not seeing that the AI has less stat or no stat buffs becuase I have equal to or greater might on defences or weapons and they take little to no damage and I take way more.



While I know newbie didn't get any buffs in classic (why i play newbie in the first place) something is going wrong or funky here.

As Harmony you'll want to set it to as much Science as you can without losing population whenever you build ships and to as much Food as you can when you don't build ships but have population to grow.

As the other Races you'll want to set it to the highest tax where you are still Fervent and if that is not possible to the lowest tax where you are not losing dust.

I do this, then the AI gets more systems cause I can only get X number before disharmony and getting new systems means that Global Tax Shifting is meh, it should be system based. + it can take a long time to get a Harmony system up and running



When the AI can just roll in unlock all planets, buy improvements, gain more fids, buy more improvements/produce ships.

If you don't do that, your population-growth will be massively reduced. And Population-Growth is easily the most important key to success, since it's your Population where most of the FIDS comes from.

Do you think I'm an idiot, I know this. However the AI can and will in my experience out pop me very easily due to its ability to mass expand when I focusing on "Building Tech/Ships or "Growing"

So if you are behind in FIDS, it most likely is because you are behind in population. And if you are behind in fleets/fleet-power it most likely is because you are behind in FIDS.

Good job you found the source of the problem but failed to realise why. I raise food so I can cap pop faster e.g. more fids. When capped you can start building improvements/ships with science focused.



cause I can't mass expand to system due to disharmony, I can't make systems become useful in a small time frame, global tax means some systems may be in *growth phase* others in *science/build Phase" POP CAPS meaning my growth caps, I CAN'T RAISE POP until due to Disharmony and tech, however the AI can by just expanding.



I can't build ships to kill of a wave of enemy fleets fast due to how Harmony ships work and tax,



I can't pro actively build ships cause they AI will just send higher teched ships due to dust upgrading or higher fids/scene.



IND is VERY limited for the harmony race due to how they play. So higher tech ships are out of the question some times.



Its an endless feedback loop that makes the gap larger and larger and their is no way to recover.



Also this is prior to getting the +50% fids on capped systems, I could never reach that point anyway, the new changes to make it lower in tech is good, however I think it should just be moved to the affinity of the Harmony race. (They have no heroes so why not)



On a graph it be funny to show you, harmony is like mountains stacked next to each other, the AI is like skyscrapers next to each other. in terms of progression of fids, normal races the more fids you get the more fids you CAN GET. ACTIVELY hurts HARMONY BECAUSE THAT ISN'T TRUE FOR THEM.



BUT all this time we are talking system basis, the AI is eating up every single system it can find colonising all planets gain massive fids creeps allowing it to produce more ships/using dust in many ways.

Also upload a save-game where an AI has 10 full Fleets at turn 40 on Newbie-Difficulty. That sounds extremely exaggerated, unless you are talking about all AIs at once.

its not, I don't know how to upload a savegame.

Nasarog wrote:
Oh indeed, I do. I doubt an A.I. exists that can give such a challenge when compared to a human player. If the game is properly balanced, I think a human player would be your perfect opponent. Otherwise I agree with you. I was just trying to offer a helping hand to tide you over until the bugs are worked out.

To be honest I dont see "rushing" as a proper challenge. All it does is to force you into a single path in order to compete then slug it out to the end. The game offers enough tools to create interesting matches but you can about forget 80% of em when you go to Multi-player.



I gotta be fair and admit that I m not playing Multi-player sessions. That makes the above my opinion only, I might be completely wrong but from what I read and saw MP sessions are "rush-fests" depending on military strength early keeping the pressure up. Such approaches "force" you to have certain traits in order to be competetive and it also forces you to change your playstyle in order to stay alive.

Yes, but the choices are limited when compared to a 4x game.

Interesting but as I see it the number of options doesnt make a difference in the end. The more experienced you become with a game the more things will become "easy" to an extent where you dont have to think actively anymore in order to react to certain situations. The challenge in Chess is not actually the present game condition or how figures interact with each other but planning dozens and more turns in advance trying to hold all patters, possible reactions and counters in your head......its mind-boggling and an incredible feat but until you actually play chess you cannot understand the amount of power need to accomplish this task.





The game has done big leaps in performance even in the AI department compared to its initial release. By now I trust the devs to continue improving things when needed but not everything is a priority.

Another greatest point I think needs changing is how the fact to make a system pure is SO FAR UP THE TECH, its a joke, in addition 5 turns regardless of ind is bad, should be like 2 turns, with if you have more than X Ind its 1 turn.



OR you could change it to something like



Low research cost at low tech, it takes 1 turn to build but takes X number of turns to remove all dust from a system (e.g. 5 as your example) as it removes dust your disharmony is decreased over time until that system no longer produces dust. (this change would allow Harmony to expand and not wondering why they have 5 systems and the AI has 10+)



Side Note: would like to see Harmony and fighter/bombers put in classic with classic maths/weapons/hulls/invasion being any ship etc.



Side Note: Stop derailing the thread by talking about AI programming, its one of the hardest things to do right, Most AI sucks, this thread is about how the game is implemented and structured. In Disharmony these mechanics are giving over the top buffs towards an AI than it does to a human or *Harmony* player.



Yes you can make C-races and abuse X, or win by Y.



However this problem is that we have an endless (no pun) feedback loop.



The Invasion/Fids growth through expansion/damage formula. Work in such a way that its like a merry go round that the faster each full turn you do the faster the next turn is.



This is really a dire concern for single player and I think it whole point is disharmony was MP focused. The biggest mistake devs in this generation is trying to tailor games to MP, Ever make an only MP game like dota 2, Or Make a single player game with "options" for MP torchlight, Dark Souls. Don't do both because you wreck you game (you can't make both happy) and ruin your PR.



My view is focus SOLELY on making a decent functioning single player game, THEN worry about MP and any changes done for MP do not effect single player. There are basically 2 modes of play.

Fix it for the player and the effects should transfer to the MP game a lot more then in SP.

Ail wrote:
Some of the things you say make sense, others, in my opinion, are nothing but your opinion and completely without any logical basis.



Also a lot of the things you are mad about already are announced to be fixed. However, can't blame you for mentioning them anyways since this information is widespread all over the forums.



Here's the two things I disagree with:



-Return damage/defence formula to the classic version for disharmony due to being unfair on single player vs AI due to absurd buffs

What does the formula have to do with the buffs the AI receives on Hard and higher difficulty-levels?

I still read about people who can beat Endless despite the new formulas and all the unfairness going on. Higher difficulties are not there to be "fair" but to pose a challenge.



-A look into how (+5 food/ind per planet in system, is making the AI way more powerful than it should be, this buff is good for human players only, so you need to change that for the AI)

This is outright ridiculous. Now how would that be fair? Giving the player an advantage by having the colony base work differently for him is one of the worst ideas I've heared about. If you want an advantage over the AI, then simply lower the difficulty.



I, however totally agree about tonnage-weights. Those %-weights are probably an even more ridiculous idea for the most part. I simply don't get how anyone could have imagined that to make sense.

1) This is not about endless, this is about NEWBIE TO NORMAL, the "bonuses" the AI gets in addition to HERO "Bonus" I'm making ships with 5-6 weapons and 4-6 defence mods with 100 weight and the AI Fleets are SO more powerful due to their in-ate buffs and the fact that when playing Harmony race they don't get heroes.



This is then compound by the fact that the AI just mass xpands and by turn 40-50 has 10+ fleets and is steam-rolling my zones with heroes and fleets, I can't expand due to disharmony AND can't build fleets fast.



The AI has

Happiness BUFFS

Faster BUILD TIMES

HIGHER FIDS (MAKING then bonuses from +5 food/Ind much better)

Heroes and Dust to buy out/upgrade ships

BONI to fleet defence and damage that is massively unfair on how the way the current system works



Player ships take more damage and do less damage in addition with the buffs the AI IS GETTING MULTIPLE BONI, this isn't a "Fair" rant it is knowledge that the mechanics as is are BROKEN, I do not care if a % can or say they can do endless (Prove it, I have started many games and no matter what I do I can't out win the AI as Harmony or a Custom Harmony and other races is still difficult because the AI is getting buffs that buffs the buffs and the spread way to much), some people can run 100 meters in 10 seconds, that doesn't mean that people who can't shouldn't be able to play.



This is not even that hard to see that the AI is out preforming the player way more than it should and the state the game is in ISN'T balanced for single player Newbie-Normal



2) It isn't about fair, When the AI is getting +% buffs to fids, xpands faster than you can, builds improvements/ships faster then dumps on you at 40-60 turn and its GG by 70-80 due to them pretty much have every planet and all planets unlocked and blue. with 10 to 20 fleets that are 1.7-3k on Newbie while you at best have 2 or so with 750-1200 fleets with 3-5 Systems.



THIS IS ON NEWBIE, you must be playing a different game, the AI is downright exploiting multiple issues that make each individual issue worse, this in turn makes the multiple issues even more of an issue.



This isn't theory, this isn't a rant, this is broken mechanics that are not implemented correctly and has killed single player's fun factor cause cheating AI is ok when used in moderation but it has become a Massive Maths issue that no matter what you do you just can't beat those numbers.

Good observations.

I think you're looking for Harmony race buffs more than a change to how the game actually operates. By the way, adding defenses to your ships will continue to add the same amount of effective HP as the first set, and they will be increasingly powerful with the addition of HP modules. The defense modules are a multiplier for your HP, but they don't multiply each other.

nice observations...

Some of the things you say make sense, others, in my opinion, are nothing but your opinion and completely without any logical basis.



Also a lot of the things you are mad about already are announced to be fixed. However, can't blame you for mentioning them anyways since this information is widespread all over the forums.



Here's the two things I disagree with:



-Return damage/defence formula to the classic version for disharmony due to being unfair on single player vs AI due to absurd buffs

What does the formula have to do with the buffs the AI receives on Hard and higher difficulty-levels?

I still read about people who can beat Endless despite the new formulas and all the unfairness going on. Higher difficulties are not there to be "fair" but to pose a challenge.



-A look into how (+5 food/ind per planet in system, is making the AI way more powerful than it should be, this buff is good for human players only, so you need to change that for the AI)

This is outright ridiculous. Now how would that be fair? Giving the player an advantage by having the colony base work differently for him is one of the worst ideas I've heared about. If you want an advantage over the AI, then simply lower the difficulty.



I, however totally agree about tonnage-weights. Those %-weights are probably an even more ridiculous idea for the most part. I simply don't get how anyone could have imagined that to make sense.

It seems like everything in the OP's post relates to changes made in Disharmony. Perhaps he should just play Classic instead?

Or try again with the beta-patch to see if some of the issues are resolved now.

I'm not real fond of beta software. Any idea when the finalized patch will be released?

I'm not real fond of beta software. Any idea when the finalized patch will be released?

Well at least more then a week away since most of Amp staff will be away on vacation the next week.

On Normal I can create defensive ships that pubstomp fleets twice tehir size. The new DR formula is a massive improvement over the old defense mechanic.



edit: To be honest most of that post looks less like yo udid extensive testing and more like you looked at the numbers and decided to QQ.

fatmanlittleboy wrote:
I'm not real fond of beta software. Any idea when the finalized patch will be released?

The Beta patch seems to work nice, check latest dev blog how to install in Steam, easy as cake.

Ugh... Weapons have been buffed massively while Defenses have been slightly nerfed. Omni-Tanks are not really viable anymore at least not for small ships. It feels much closer to Vanilla and I think Glass-Cannons are much more viable once again.

I have gone back to classic as of now, sad though because I liked the Harmony race idea.



I play single player, disharmony isn't a good single player game.



However there are massive mistakes in the implementation of the dlc.



The Defence Module Formula is terrible



Simply put you get X% defence when you add one module to you ship, then each after raises it by a factor that is small %



This means that you will take damage (e.g. no block 100% anymore)



HOWEVER THIS IS DRASTICALLY BAD, cause the AI gets "Bonuses" e.g. more damage and better defences



Even on newbie I'm finding it difficult to counter the speed that the AI starts ramming fleets at you (Heroes included), building ships turn 1-30 can cripple mid game (Harmony are SOL)



If you build a ship that can kill the AI ships you lose out on defences and will take losses (this can be GG early game due to AI buffs)



The new System based food and Ind IS BROKEN FOR THE AI (+5 food/Ind per planet) I regularly see the AI just colonise every planet for the buff (it has happiness and fid buffs so that furthers the problem)



This then allows it to pump ships and leapfrog the map. (Harmony can't due to disharmony)



In addition to this heroes on fleets become a massive issue cause the give the first ships so much more % damage and defence



(This is a serious issue for Harmony's early game, and have less fids as a result of no admin)



On Top of that invasion is VERY BAD, forcing you to have 2 types of fleets is bad game design (your production is limited, For Harmony very limited) and it takes 10 turns at MAX, this makes it very hard to fight an uphill battle what is most likely to happen to races like harmony that do not mass xpand early game.



The Ship design is broken in so many ways, players should be able to pick lower tech options THIS IS MAJOR IMPORTANT FOR THE POWER MODULES, in addition the support modules weight being % is bad game design in addition to fighters/bombers/anti-fighter module section.



everything should have a static number of weight.



Invasion should work like it did in classic, any fleet can invade, invasion modules help make invasion quicker (return back to the 4 turns to invade) Defence improvements make it harder to take systems, troops/bombers make it easier to take a system.



Another issue with ship design is the fact that different races have different ships stat's (this is bad) 1) it affects custom race design, 2) open's up imbalances.



races should have the same bonuses for the same ship type like classic then have OTHER techs that help their race do what their race does (Harmony may need extra benefits due to no upgrading, I prefer Ind reductions and reduced weight for modules)



Harmony race has no access to dust that means you can't buy out system improvements (this slows them down to a crawl in some cases, while other races use that dust to buy systems increasing fids quickly)



The 2 extremely OVER POWERED things that I can't believe were added are



Harmony's Metal Memory: + % Attack, defence on ship for having resources (way to powerful)



and



Hero's Skill: +100 damage to weapons (cough Kinetics cough) (This is by far the most OP thing I have come across)



The multiple issues work in a exponential circle making it worse and the more worse it gets the quicker it gets worse.



This then cause the issue of I want to play with fighters/bombers and Harmony race but can't due to the faulty implementation of the DLC as a whole



Short Version

-ADD flyers and bombers and Harmony race and all the new traits to Classic (making it work with classic formula)

-Return damage/defence formula to the classic version for disharmony due to being unfair on single player vs AI due to absurd buffs

-Nerf-batting the 2 OP things I said hard (The hero skill might be so bad you might as well change it +3 offensive was ok)

-Making player able to CHOOSE what goes on their ships (lower tech allowed) AND giving everything STATIC WEIGHT not %.

-Buffing Harmony (The structure of the game as is does not support them functionally)

-Invasion should work exactly like Classic does (defences increase time to capture, bombers/fighters/invasion/troops modules are not needed and only reduce the time to capture, Min 2 Turns-Max 4 Turns, 2 turns is for troopers or very weak systems)

-Hulls the same effects, races get bonus techs that help them function or as part of their affinity (like classic did)

-A look into how (+5 food/ind per planet in system, is making the AI way more powerful than it should be, this buff is good for human players only, so you need to change that for the AI)

If you're getting your butt handed to you on newbie the simple fact is that you're not all that great, and therefore are very unlikely to have done any for of extensive testing, unless you're playing Harmony, then it's because Harmony is nearly brokenly weak right now and requires a massive amount of experience to keep up with the AI.



Note: I can win games as Harmony on Normal.

Autocthon wrote:
If you're getting your butt handed to you on newbie the simple fact is that you're not all that great, and therefore are very unlikely to have done any for of extensive testing, unless you're playing Harmony, then it's because Harmony is nearly brokenly weak right now and requires a massive amount of experience to keep up with the AI.



Note: I can win games as Harmony on Normal.

I agree with this, the harmony race is terrible in comparison to the standard races, custom races are an entire level better then the standard races. The OP should really work on his early game expansion and early fleet defense and he will be doing much better with one of the other races. Waiting til harmony is fixed before trying them again.

@ThatMG:

What you say simply isn't true. The only advantage of the AI on Newbie-Normal is that they have slightly less Expansion-Disapproval.



They don't have faster build-times, they don't have higher FIDS and they don't have boni to fleet-defence and damage!

Infact on Newbie they have massively reduced fleet-defense and -damage as well as slighly reduced FIDS.



The game is about gaining knowledge and applying this knowledge to get better at it, not about blaming ones shortcomings on the game.



For example: Have you ever touched the Food/Science-(Harmony) or Taxrate-(other Races)Slider? It's extremely important to properly adjust it on a regular basis in order to do well.



As Harmony you'll want to set it to as much Science as you can without losing population whenever you build ships and to as much Food as you can when you don't build ships but have population to grow.

As the other Races you'll want to set it to the highest tax where you are still Fervent and if that is not possible to the lowest tax where you are not losing dust.



If you don't do that, your population-growth will be massively reduced. And Population-Growth is easily the most important key to success, since it's your Population where most of the FIDS comes from.



So if you are behind in FIDS, it most likely is because you are behind in population. And if you are behind in fleets/fleet-power it most likely is because you are behind in FIDS.



Also upload a savegame where an AI has 10 full Fleets at turn 40 on Newbie-Difficulty. That sounds extremely exaggerated, unless you are talking about all AIs at once.