I started this thread because I was looking for Endless Space 2 structural changes. I think the game is great but want to talk about ways we can look to the future and really change the 4X space Galaxy genre. The game concepts haven't changed since MOO2.



The first concept: The biggest galaxy always wins (Normally). They should develop a dust and enlightening system to favor smaller empires. The smaller your empire is, the less dust it takes to enlighten all the citizens. It also be a nice game balance if one factions starts running away with the score. the dust could give additional traits or remove drawbacks.



Second concept: The development of space terrain. Wormholes are nice touch, but hey there around since MOO2. A smaller developing empire can hold off a bigger empire at critical choke point. A second way to develop technologies that slow enemy ships or allow defensive space walls to protect key wormhole locations. The players can build key terrain themselves. It'll add character to the bland vastness of space.



nice to haves:

Auto shipbuilding: I know some players Love to design your own ships (and you have to have that system in there). At the end of the game when you have 20 fleets, it takes you out of the game when you redesign a minor frigate. The auto upgrade just doesn't get the job done. I am looking for set templates that are the 80% solution.



I have other thoughts but I'll leave it here and check back in a couple days.

Well as far as ship customization goes I really loved how much customization you got in Galactic Civ 2, but hated the gameplay of it, I liked the first one better (and haven't played 3 yet), anyways...You could design the whole ship, including visuals, like where the guns went, the shields, etc. It came with starting ship bodys, but you could also start from scratch, then after you finish the ship it saves the design for you to use in any gameplay (basically you don't have to redesign new ships every single game unless you want to). The game also had default ship designs to use if you didn't feel like designing your own.



I also loved pretty much everything about MOO2 and when I found out that I could customize the factions in ES too that is what really got me to liking this game.

Comparing ES to MOO2 I felt like terriforming was way to easy in ES. All the terriforming tech is grouped together at the end of the tech tree and you could terriform every type of planet except for the astroids. It wasn't alway possible to terriform a planet in MOO2. I also really like how in MOO2 you could attack or colonize each planet individually so you'd sometimes get 2 people owning a planet in the same solar system. Another thing I really liked from MOO2 was how when you took over an enemy planet you could chose to let their people to continue to live or kill them off and give the planet to your people to use. If you let them live you got all the worker benefits that race provided, integrate them back to your own planets and integrate your people to their planets. I usually did this with the people who had subterranean benefit which provided extra population space (for example, one planet could support 5 total pop, but when I added the alien population to my planet, it could support 7 total pop).



There was only one concept from MOO3 I liked. I liked how each race required a different type of planet to survive, so when you try to take over their planets your people wouldn't find their planets as comfortable and until you get them terriformed to what your people like you had increased maintenance to allow them to survive (might make you think twice before going to war).



I'm mostly just taking ideas from the MOO games at this point, sorry nothing really new, except to ES.





I was mostly thinking instead of an ES2 to make a new Endless game about the Endless themselves for the next game. I was mostly thinking about the Endless's war in the lore and was thinking the game should be styled similar to the Homeworld games. I really liked both 1 & 2, but didn't enjoy the storyline as much (in HW2). Main reason is that you had a limit on the number of units you could have at one time, but it adjusted the AI each level so that the AI would always have more and better units than you. I mostly liked the skirmish mode, but I still didn't like the base game skirmish mode (it just seemed too bland). I really liked the Homeworld 2 Complex mod 9.1; it really made the game fun, but had way too many bugs to be really enjoyed. (I mostly liked Homeworld 1 the best, I actually beat it's storyline.) The main reason I like the Homeworld games was that I could control all the units in real time 3D space in all x, y, z directions.



FYI: The main bug I hated in the mod was the fact that the AI was immune to and ignored damage from terrain damage (space radiation and solar radation). I could be mining in a place with radiation, but had a ship with an anti-radiation shield (protects me from radiation), then the AI comes in with 20 ships and destroys my anti-radiation ship, so then the ships there are taking terrain damage and damage from their ships and if I call in back up those ships will take damage from the radiation as well. The AI could easly destroy all my ships while taking minimal damage; where is the balance in that! (Although, this was probably by design since the AI in base game took damage from terrain, but just ignored the fact that they were taking damage, so the mod's solution was to not allow them to take any damage at all in those areas.)



Sorry that was so long.

Note to self, I wrote a whole long reply and the website timed out...

No worries about it being a long post. It's good to have a developed discussion.



The having had different planets in the same system is okay until the system outpost changes to colony. You then end up with border issues. I can see them having problems coding that. Maybe you could split the system on the national borders? Some planets would be lost out right. Dust strong does Empire (culturally strong) could absorb other planets. It could be another technique to balance smaller empires against larger empires. The dust concept is not total dust, but total dust again total population (see original post).



I was also reviewing my initial post. They should develop a way medium Empires could win. You want a rich Rock paper scissors conflict between small, large, and medium empires.



I also listened to an old episode of three moves ahead podcast. Episode 216 "Lost in space" made a number of good points about the 4X genre. They made a good case that we are wrapped into the Moo2 legacy and haven't moved beyond it. After 20 years, we should develop more complex systems.



One other nice to have is a pre-build sequence for middle and late game management. We all take over plants and have a set template for planet improvements. The autocue build would be nice mid game function and a great timesaver. It would nest well with a better template shipbuilding, so we work grinding ourselves down running empire bureaucracy (see first post).



Along with AI design, I'm okay with good factions being passive. Especially if they fix the game mechanic we're small empires can win, a pilgrim faction that turtles early in the game could still pull victory with a dust culture enlightenment win. The current ES victory path boils down to the number of systems you have plus number of technologies you discovered which leads to a snowball win. The larger your empire leads to more science/military which leads too victory.



Changing the happiness function from a percentage a whole number based on population (Civ 5 system) could restructure empire size better than the current system. Also, happier people could sucking more dust cultural victory/empire bonuses. The smaller empires we need to be careful though not to be too small because of the Harmony would just steam roll them. I have more thoughts about this being a whole number, but I want to get to technology. Also, minor faction systems could be shaped will way that they would benefit smaller empires that weren't aggressive. It would add another balancing system against large empires.



The last topic is 4x tech. Since most of us don't have a Physics degree, the tech discovery seemed very bland. It's like I have reached lasers two and energy shield three. I am not sure how to fix this. I would be open for suggestions.



One off-the-wall suggestion for tech is you got me mutually exclusive choices balance I am rock paper scissor system. I am thinking of starCraft 2 type choices. You'll have like biological tech that supports a huge empire. You got a Terrain tech that supports medium Empire, and Protoss tech that supports a small empire. it is a way you can give tech character and invest you going down a tree. So once you started down a specific tech, getting superior text on the tree you're focused on cost the same as getting basic techs on other trees. You could develop certain factions to ride the lines; the pilgrims can be half protoss science and half terrain industrial. You can have an interesting game where the pilgrims have a harsh starting planet environment and are forced to take all biotech and integrate completely with their planets. It would add character to the tech.



I am writing this post late at night, so I reserve of the right to change these thoughts if they don't make sense the morning

One more additional thought on space terrain. It refers back to the first post. Space landscape is very bland. When you play endless legend, the land scape is very rich. The EL has mountains and water, and we intuitively understand how the terrain effects play. When you have space nodes with star lanes is not really tie you to the star scape. I often rename my systems, so it ties me into the system.



I would bring back the richer star scape of Moo2. You could have nova's with space monsters and slow ships. You can have whole systems that can't be reach without deep space technology. Without deep sea/space tech, entire parts of the galaxy could be left for late game colonization. It would break the normal 4x rhythm with another explore and colonize phase.



Linking back to my second post, small tech heavy empires could get wormhole and deep space tech sooner. It would allow them to travel sooner and setup more profitable trade. Where as the heavy Swarm (huge empire type) couldn't send ship into deep space until the hive mind projected deep into outer space (significant tech development). It would be a good balance against the normal huge empire steam roll.



Another issue to link back in, you got unhappiness now a whole planet or population number. The empire expands to quickly the deep space colonies revolt. The united empire would birth the pilgrims in the middle of the game. It would make it a much richer game than the normal 4x repeated scenario.

I would say only a few things :

- I'd like a "no duplicate faction" button when choosing random. This way I choose faction A, I'd like AI to be B, C, D and E but not B, B, A and E.

- I'd like a little more maps, and maybe a map maker and something to import maps. I don't know if people made maps for the game, I'm not yet in modding.

- I'd like factions to have different search trees, or maybe bonuses only (different search cost), so discovering a faction tree is part of the enjoyement and faction tech could be more typical.

- If it's possible, cards would be preset for fleets. This way, you can change your default plan, but when attacking the same faction again and again, you could speed up the combat process a little.



The rest of the game can stay the same

About "space terrain", that could be also "meteo" condition coming from the stars.

This red star is in erruption : +10% to this and -10% to that. Now this blue star storm is calming, +10% to this and -10% to that.



Actually people would scout before invading. Meteo report could also have to be bringed back to a fleet to have the + bonus, or that fleet would only have the - malus.

Kweel, I like the idea of different planets for different factions. Dare I say it, it was a good idea in MOO3... It would also change up the expansion side of the game. Who does a B line for gas planets? It would turn the midgame interactions on its head.



So, I have been thinking about tech tree problem/ opportunity to make a unique experience every game. I know the written description seems a little vague, so here is a graphic. Some races will be predisposed to certain tech. Once, a race learns the cross barrier line; they can learn up and down tree. The craven could get harmony crystal growth pools/breeding pits. It would make unique experience every game.



Another kinda crazy game concept is that minor technology and low level trade just happens. If races have borders next to each other, technology is going to flow from richer to poorer. It naturally keeps the game balance and gives a sense of realism. The game would need to scale back the races, but it could be a very tight and personal experiences instead of the normal galaxy expansions go big or go home.

I WANT THE BIG UI OPTION FROM ENDLESS LEGEND.



Again, for those of you who missed it the first time: I WANT THE BIG UI OPTION FROM ENDLESS LEGEND.



Oh, and a tech tree that actually tells you what benefit you get from the tech. Less nonsense, more information.