ENDLESS™ Space is a turn-based 4X strategy game, covering the space colonization age in the ENDLESS™ Universe. You control every aspect of your civilization as you strive for galactic dominion.
Lots of intresting posts her. Its not that im against dust shadowhand. And im not against the concept. im just talking ecomics laws here. To make my argument exstream to point out what i see as the flaw in how dust is presented. From what i am reading it would be like escimoes selling snow. Becuse you do a lot of cool stuff withe it. My problem is that why should anybodoy want to traied snow if its erywhere and easy to get?
So my argument myst be that the production of dust is hard somthing like gatting hydrogen out of water. So you need to use alot of people to get it.
I kinda agree here. Weird thing is that Dust is defined as "relatively easy to find". If gold was "relatively easy to find", be sure anyone would dig his own garden to find some
If I understand correctly, Dust can self-replicate. So the more Dust you have, the highest your Dust production should be no?(like bank account interests).
Just throwing an Idea (probably not very good but...) : when colonizing/probing/operating a planet (or asteroid etc...), maybe all Dust from that body should be seized by the empire (no way a civilian can get some!). Then the planet doesn't produce anymore dust (or very very small amount) while Empire dust reserve could increase each turn with a small % Ratio? (% could be modified with tech).
That way you really want to get more dust (from other empires or by exploring the galaxy), as it increases your revenues each turn. You also really want to prevent your opponents to plunder the galaxy and steal all dust or they will crush you someday...And you will think twice before spending Dust, as your revenues will be reduced next turn.
Of course, that's a bit complex and really difficult to balance though...
If you run into an organic-based civilization (Tyranids, Swarm) they might disagree about the energy bit.
But anyway, altough a certain species might not find cocoa beans useful as food, they might find other use for them. As poison, for example. Or a race that has no use for silver might just find it pretty.
You can pretty much do this with every valuable you might think off. Maybe a space market, where each solar system has variable prices on each good (they could vary, say, each 5 turns). Coluan glass might not be valuable for race A, but it might just be what race B needs right now. But oh wait! Race A, finds out, 10 turns after, that they can make a profit out of that glass. Or they discover a new use for it. Suddenly, they pay a lot more for it, in goods or whatever.
Just my two cents. You might want to check how economy works on games like Machiavelli: The Prince, an old PC game.
Why would dust play for ship upkeep and why would people play the govenment tax in dust and not cash.I would prefer standard money in the game for immersive realism and dust as a seperate entity like a mana,ect.I do not think it fits the lore at is stands that dust is this common.
SpaceTroll wrote: I think the idea is that Dust should be compared to the Gold Standard, meaning that while gold was considered the most valuable resource on earth, governments were printing bills that could be exchanged at anytime against gold.
In on our universe, Dust can become whatever you want it be, would you be able to master it, then it would be gold for some, energy for others, or even cocoa, would we still have cocoa lovers around.
Then instead of having everyone carrying their little purse of dust around, you would have like the Gold Standard, governments keeping the dust in their banks and issue virtuals credits, bills or coins for them depending on the cultures. it is then easier for us to speak in dust rather than local money.. as it is always convertible in dust.
I understand all this space troll, my problem withe dust is this its aboundent and easy to get a hold off. If you bascly can just pick it up of the gorund where ever you are its usefull but why trade it?
I think the idea is that Dust should be compared to the Gold Standard, meaning that while gold was considered the most valuable resource on earth, governments were printing bills that could be exchanged at anytime against gold.
In on our universe, Dust can become whatever you want it be, would you be able to master it, then it would be gold for some, energy for others, or even cocoa, would we still have cocoa lovers around.
Then instead of having everyone carrying their little purse of dust around, you would have like the Gold Standard, governments keeping the dust in their banks and issue virtuals credits, bills or coins for them depending on the cultures. it is then easier for us to speak in dust rather than local money.. as it is always convertible in dust.
tkozlow wrote: I would thing that the most common currency between any sentient races if there are any in the universe would energy.
I would absolutely agree for a civilization at a primitive level like ours
However, if travel between the stars is possible, it means that science has discovered an *enormous* energy source. If I recall correctly, to use the Alcubierre warp drive to travel to the closest star, we would need to convert the entire mass of the planet Jupiter into energy. So in a universe where that little problem has been solved, I decided to simplify stuff and just say that energy is pretty much there if you need it. Yeah, you can call me lazy
"Dust" is the creation of a highly advanced race, the Endless, that traversed the galaxies tens of thousands of years before the gameplay begins. The Endless developed technology that was so advanced that they were able to upload their minds and consciousnesses into computers, thus gaining virtual immortality.
Through their mastery of nano-engineering, the Endless created an infrastructure of nanobots and nano-computers to maintain their society. Some used these infinitesimally small machines to help maintain their biological bodies, while others used constructs of these nano-elements -- known collectively as "Dust" -- as virtual bodies once they uploaded themselves. The technology was sufficiently advanced to self-replicate itself and self-assemble. While individual motes of Dust had very limited computing power, the ability to 'talk' and network was built in. As a result, 'clouds' of Dust could form extremely sophisticated systems.
However, while many of the Endless chose to become electronic consciousnesses, there were equally large numbers who kept to their bodies, gaining immortality instead through DNA manipulation, the use of dust to repair failing organs, cloning, etc. These two societies drifted apart, began to mistrust each other, championed different goals and uses of resources, and eventually fell into open conflict.
The "Virtuals" developed their versions of Dust to aid in communication and transport. It was refined to provide virtual bodies, pass electronic signals, collect and store energy, etc.
The "Concretes" developed Dust that excelled in manipulating the physical world: Improving building and transportation systems, attacking crop diseases, cleaning and sterilizing living spaces, etc.
Uses
Dust is valuable and versatile. During the time of the Endless it improved computing systems and networks, added intelligence to things that were usually 'dumb' (roads, buildings, tables, lights, clothing, etc.), and even locked itself together to form structures. Sufficiently large quantities of Dust could form networks and supercomputers; small quantities could assemble into cybernetic enhancements.
The Endless came to rely upon Dust to the point where there civilization was almost symbiotic between life-forms and Dust. Their cities and ships contained enormous quantities of Dust; space stations and habitats were formed almost entirely from it.
Today
In the world of Endless Space, however, the Empires lack the ability of the Endless to understand and manipulate Dust. As the game goes on and technology improves, however, Dust will become increasingly useful as technologies are unlocked that allow Empires to better exploit it.
On the other hand, because it is highly valuable and relatively easy to find (in this galaxy awash with the ruins of the Endless civilization), it has become the common currency of Endless Space. Like gold during the Age of Exploration, it is one thing that all societies, regardless of how different they are from each other, want and desire.
I would thing that the most common currency between any sentient races if there are any in the universe would energy.
Every kind of civilization will need it, they might create in different ways, but still Civilizations producing more energy will be consider wealthier then other. In turn resources generating power will be the usual common exchange.
Hmm... I think i got the idea. And while reading this i recalled NCR from Fallout 3 that has shifted their economy from useless gold they used in F2 and started to back up their treasury by water -far more precious resource in post-apoc world. Though i don`t know how it arose in my mind and what conneciton it has to a universal dust currency
Okay, you guys are asking a lot of interesting macroeconomic questions here...
Basically, there are two types of currency: One is based on a physical resource that is considered valuable (gold coins in medieval Europe, silver ingots in medieval Japan, cocoa beans for the Incas); the other is a paper note printed by some organization (European Central Bank, Confederate States of America, East India Company) that is given an arbitrary value *and whose value is backed by the organization that prints it*. Yes, this is an over-simplification, but the name of the game is not "Endless Detail" :rolleyes:
In a realistic SF setting, both of these types of currency are difficult to rationalize. A machine race may not care about gold, an insectoid race may not care about silver, and cocoa beans can be poisonous to alien digestive systems... So the idea of a common 'thing' that has value is very difficult to imagine. It is not realistic that diverse alien races would find some sort of precious metal (e.g. used in space ships) and make that a currency, because, DUDE, we need that for the ships! Which is why the US no longer makes pennies out of copper, and nobody could ever imagine making coins out of titanium.
Going further, when the Fkleef, a highly intelligent form of muffin, meet the Grglx, a warrior race of sentient cave formations, they are not going to trade paper currency backed by the Fkleef Central Baking Authority or the Grglx Stalactite Cooperative. Those things have no value or meaning for the other.
So the question was: What the heck is the currency?
They ended up falling back on Dust -- perhaps an imperfect solution, but I think a good compromise -- because it has value to any advanced species regardless of their lifestyle and it was left scattered across the galaxy by the Endless. Using Dust as currency doesn't mean that you walk to the bakery, pull a magnetic containment field out of your pocket, extract a few nanobots, and walk away with a freshly-baked loaf. What it means is that you can set up a spot market in Dust between any number of alien species, who will translate their own local currency into 'Dust' and trade in those units.
Besides, if you can build a freaking spaceship for a few hundred 'Dust', it's value is enormous and impractical for daily use (you'd be doing your shopping in what, 'pico-Dusts?'). We don't really plan to go into detail about how much 'Dust' is in a unit of 'Dust', unless we get high demand for a DLC entitled "Endless Space: Exceedingly Nitpicky"
So, to conclude, we decided to call the currency 'Dust' not necessarily because it is actively traded like coins, but because it is a common and valuable resource that is of interest to all races. Within a faction, there would most likely be (if I wear my RPG hat) some other money for daily life. Dust is simply a common way to express value across disparate alien nations.
But therein lies the economic conundrum... and I keep looking for the ah-ha! paragraph that helps me understand this. I really don't want this to be a weak point in what looks like an amazing game.
No source control... no profiteering?
No supply limits... no value? aka Dust inflation. Need more so just gather more with no fear of running out.
4X junkies tend not to be scared of making a spreadsheet to map out their optimal empire growth (or search out someone else's that's already been done). In the end if it's traded as a currency it has to break down to definable values.
Of course I'm sure this has been thought of ad nauseum by the devteam it's just a tad confusing until we see a build.
Re-read the info on Dust. So it is a common resource with yet-to-be uncovered properties that everyone for some reason consider to be a universal currency. I really wonder for what properties (taking into account that nobody knows about its possible future uses)? How does it differ from simple metal dust? Is it shiny? Does it have some form/easily shaped into some form of coins/ingots?. Or does it come as a powder? How much is a 1 unit of dust? 1 kilo/tonne? More?
So i just put showdohads post in the unviers and made a new post of it so we can chat about it.
My frist impresion of dust wast that you smelled it withe 100 dollar billes. But after som cleriftaction i found out it was small dead nano bots.
My problem withe dust is the value of it. Basic ecommy is supply and demand. Since the supply is abuntend and easy to get hold of the demand has to enmormus.
But since dust looks like a non renwabel reserch, we are looking at at a near futrure colaps of the econmy. So for dust to make sense for me it needs either to be hard to get a hold of or rear. Hydrogen is abounded on the erath but it not to easy to get hold off. But gasses are hard use as money. Gold on the other hand is hard to get a hold of and its hard to get. Aound most important of all its shiny(god we humans are simpel)
So to sum up dust needs to be harder to get a hold off. Or need a lot of energy to get.
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