Monterce wrote:
It could be quite hard to implement, how do you justify the reason to research new shields or weapons for your ships? You have to be at war with 1 or more races? To research a shield upgrade you have to be at war with a race that uses weapons good against shields?



I agree with you that the tech tree is unrealistic, but to give some boundaries and coherence to the research in a 4x game it is almost always needed. I'm not much into the research bars that gives you a random tech when you reach the end since it gives you no choice.



To use your idea though you could have a tech tree but to get some of the technologies you would need some conditions. Let's say only the social and industrial ones. For example: to research subterranean farms you'd need to have a shortage of food for a set amount of years but to research technologies for war you wouldn't need any conditions. It might be feasible but it would need a lot of work to decide which technology is condition based and which are not.

Yes, this was partially what I suggested earlier on. It might be too much to have a totally reactive or situation-triggered tech tree, but facing, say, ship subsystem failures in and after a battle (regardless of foe) might trigger either autonomously or player-directed research into...say...higher capacity shields, or stronger bulkheads.



Alternatively, maybe it could be research crossover suggestions. To counter an established deficit in, say, starship superstructure strength, the science division might suggest researching "Improved Smelting" or "Nano-lattices" in combination with "Vessel Architecture" or "Enhanced Shipyard Fabricators" (or something), so you're combining complimentary research projects to provide modifiers for starship armour values, instead of simply researching one thing.



This might sound convoluted, but it's more akin to proper R&D and notions popularised by Minecraft, ie, item combination and customisation. Combining "Vessel Architecture" with "Enhanced Fusion Generators" might produce a positive modifier for ship-based energy weaponry like lasers as well as shield charges.



I dunno. Just a few ideas. I like the concept of mixing and matching research, but there is a risk of creating some sort of imbalance.

I kinda like the way MOO2 did research.

Adn how SOTS did research.



Some randomization. Keeps you on your toes.

Maybe, but randomization also prevents you from planning ahead and means that some players will be off worse than others due to something they can't control. That doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.

Well, MOO2 allowed you to see all the tiers. It was useful when playing uncreative race (Klacklon). Helped to see what techs a sadorandomizer cut you off from and to plan ahead your strategy based on the techs. Usually the first friendly AI you`ve met quickly filled you tech gaps via trade, espionage or combat/scrapping.



SOTS allowed to see only techs that you have access to. No planning ahead making a game a little bit unpredicted and thus forcing a player to adapt. Usually a lack of tech in SOTS meant serious fall behind in firepower, defences or expansion. The abundance of weapons and protection means allowed to go alternative ways. If being very unlucky cut you off of all the useful/high tier techs, than a player was forced to take some extreme decisions from sacrificing research over production or even forcing overharvesting the worlds to get more cash for larger fleets. Techs could be obtained through salvage or incredibly long special joint projects. The first one demanded presence of specialised ships and constant wins/draws with more advanced player. The last option required some bribery and other diplomatic actions to get an advanced player to actually like you enough to trade techs to you.

Armada 2526, which is a fairly underappreciated game, allowed you to view the entire tech tree right from the get go. Based on the screenshots we've seen so far it seems Amplitude is going for a similar approach here.

At the risk of sounding like a major noob, what does it mean by 'appliances'?



Also, with my limited understanding, I think that having multiple tech trees that differ while you specialise in one particular tree (perhaps similar to WoW talent trees) would be good and have certain bonuses or another tech tree (or set of tech trees) that follows the progression concept but would be harder to progress through, give better rewards and is possibly hidden until the required progression point is reached. This is probably similar to option 8 or a combination of options 7 and 9.

Trash, have you read this post of mine? /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/10985-poll-what-kind-of-research-tree-would-prefer



What are your thoughts about it?



To benzfilth:



Appliances here are the techs themselves that a player could research. For example in Master of Orion 2 your tree was divided into several disciplines (physics, biology etc.). Each of them had several tech tiers/levels that a player progressed on. Each tier had from 1 to 3 techs for a player to choose. This is what being refereed to as appliances. After researching a tech player gained access to a new tier/level. The other techs from the tier he has just researched were lost to him.

benzfilth wrote:
At the risk of sounding like a major noob, what does it mean by 'appliances'?

typically ur washer, dryer, toaster, you know the kind of stuff every superior race needs :P



I mentally subtranslated that into 'applications'. wrong or right it helped me work with it.

Okim wrote:
Well, MOO2 allowed you to see all the tiers. It was useful when playing uncreative race (Klacklon). Helped to see what techs a sadorandomizer cut you off from and to plan ahead your strategy based on the techs. Usually the first friendly AI you`ve met quickly filled you tech gaps via trade, espionage or combat/scrapping.



SOTS allowed to see only techs that you have access to. No planning ahead making a game a little bit unpredicted and thus forcing a player to adapt. Usually a lack of tech in SOTS meant serious fall behind in firepower, defences or expansion. The abundance of weapons and protection means allowed to go alternative ways. If being very unlucky cut you off of all the useful/high tier techs, than a player was forced to take some extreme decisions from sacrificing research over production or even forcing overharvesting the worlds to get more cash for larger fleets. Techs could be obtained through salvage or incredibly long special joint projects. The first one demanded presence of specialised ships and constant wins/draws with more advanced player. The last option required some bribery and other diplomatic actions to get an advanced player to actually like you enough to trade techs to you.

Indeed. The gist is that evne palyer with not much luck with the tech tree still had options. There were alwas ways to deal with your enemy.

I've had some pretty nightmareishly bad rolls for tech in SOTS, but I've never really found it much of a handicap. Sure it means your ships are weaker on a per ship basis.



So I throw more ships in, with a few salvage vessels to get more tech. Easy. Works.

For my part I think that a fixed tech tree, with some differences for each species would be nice. Some requirements for the high grade technologies would be fun too. What I thought about too, would be to make sure you can't research everything so that you have to make decisions and live with it. I think it would make the player more ''aware'' of what technology he wants to go for in the end, let's say for example that you want to go with bacterial and chemical weapons but to do so you have to go all the way down the chemical weapons or industry tech tree but doing so remove the possibility to go to the end of the planet bombardment tech tree. So in the end you have a chemical weapon that uses 1 ship but take 1 month or more to kill all or most of all the population but you do not lose ships to planetary defenses while trying to bombard the cities leaving a large number of the enemy's population still alive. So this was just an example but I think that having the player be aware of the fact that he's gonna have to make big decisions in the tech tree would not only make the player invest himself a little bit more into the tech trees but also make for some interesting battles because two civilizations can go very different ways making them unique.



PS. Please do not use the UI that SOTS used for the tech trees, it was the worst I have ever seen and it always gave me the impression you had researched almost everything already (I know it was not the case but still).

As much as I enjoy tech trees and tech lines, I would like to see a 4X game get away from these arbitrary and unrealistic processes. Instead, technology should become available when certain conditions within an empire are met. Advancement in technology is often the result of need or necessity. At some point, someone had to decide that research on a certain project was necessary for an important reason. I would like to technology in a 4X game based on events and conditions. Let's say a player needs access to X amount of resource Y in order to make a breakthrough in research Z. Or the player's empire needs X amount of population to stimulate research into project Y in order to prevent overpopulation. Salvage of ancient relics is, of course, a great event-based technology boost.



I'm not sure if my idea comes across clearly or not, but I could see this kind of tech system working well in single player. However, implementing it into multiplayer would be more difficult.



Perhaps there could be research progress bars for different fields of tech that constantly move forward unless requirements aren't met. I'm just thinking out loud here, so any help fleshing out this idea would be great.



-Kyle

It could be quite hard to implement, how do you justify the reason to research new shields or weapons for your ships? You have to be at war with 1 or more races? To research a shield upgrade you have to be at war with a race that uses weapons good against shields?



I agree with you that the tech tree is unrealistic, but to give some boundaries and coherence to the research in a 4x game it is almost always needed. I'm not much into the research bars that gives you a random tech when you reach the end since it gives you no choice.



To use your idea though you could have a tech tree but to get some of the technologies you would need some conditions. Let's say only the social and industrial ones. For example: to research subterranean farms you'd need to have a shortage of food for a set amount of years but to research technologies for war you wouldn't need any conditions. It might be feasible but it would need a lot of work to decide which technology is condition based and which are not.

I can totally get behind the idea of a fixed-appliances general tech tree, BUT with a race-exclusive tech tree, also.

The only way to get race-exclusive tech would be by espionage or outright retro-engineering after a battle.



And yes, getting the -whole- tech tree is just too similar to other games...if you choose tech A1 then forget about tech A2 and A3; if you choose B2 forget about the rest, etc. The logical explanation behind this? ("Why would you limit yourself?!" you might ask), well, if you base your whole civilization on Deuterium-powered engines (for example), why on earth would you research and create Hydrogen-based ones? Are you going to dismantle everything you've built for an engine that pretty much does the same thing? No.

If I could design the entire tech tree, I'd like it to be sort of like the following.



All race types get their own tech tree. So machine races, who I'll nickname CPU and GPU would both get the same tech tree. Then the individual races get tech trees, which help make each race unique. This means that CPU and GPU both share the same over all tech tree, which would have a absence of medical technology, due to the fact they are a machine race, and therefore could not get ill. Other races would have their own race groups aswell, so instead of Humans, you'd have Humanoid, and then you select humans from inside that category. Or you could have Reptilian as a race type, and then select Tarka or Xindi or which ever race comes under that category.



This means that everyone's techtree is more or less unique. You could, however, make it so that when you make a custom race, you select your race type, then get a list of traits appropriate for that race type.



That means no Strong Immune Systems for machine races, no matter how funny it could be



Hell, when it comes to custom races, you could select a tech focus of some kind, that unlocks extra technologies in that area. Your race focus's on weaponry? Extra weapons in the tech tree.



But "Mr Caek Daemon, what's to stop people from just picking weapons technology?" I hear you say.



By choosing a tech focus, you reduce the number of tech's that are in other areas. So if you pick offence, you reduce your defensive capabilities. I don't necessarily mean stopping them from getting access to Shield MK XVI, just to cut out gaps in the the tech tree. This means that instead of going from Shield MK I to Shield MK II, you'd skip II and go straight to III, but with a substantially higher research cost. This means that someone who focused on offence will never be truly weaker in defence, they just have to put more effort into getting the same results.



Then with some random tech selecting done, the tech tree is both unique to each race, and unique each game.

Megamaniaco wrote:




And yes, getting the -whole- tech tree is just too similar to other games...if you choose tech A1 then forget about tech A2 and A3; if you choose B2 forget about the rest, etc. The logical explanation behind this? ("Why would you limit yourself?!" you might ask), well, if you base your whole civilization on Deuterium-powered engines (for example), why on earth would you research and create Hydrogen-based ones? Are you going to dismantle everything you've built for an engine that pretty much does the same thing? No.

So I guess that's why there's no research is being done on solar-powered or electric cars....:rolleyes:

I'm not sure if the AI would be able to deal with such complexity as the model is purely set from a player's perspective:



as in HOI2 there are tech teams who reasearch in specific areas

technology advance is divided into theoretical and practical branches



the player can create new tech teams whose abilities in specific research areas are (within a certain range) random but based

on political, ideological, racial conditions and on the investments on education. A team would either be a theoratical or a practical one.



the player assigns such a team to a specific reasearch area, i.e. military, shield technology. The reasearch effort is driven by the specific abilities of the team and the resources put into reasearch. So each team shares a global pool of resources commited to research.



The player determines the broader focus but does not exactly choose what to research, i.e. he directs the general research efforts of the team towards shield technolgy but does not explicitely choose a certain type of shield defence.

The focus is determined by the player, the results are randomized, as an event, as in real life. When such an event is triggered, say the team has had a breakthrough in shield technology, potentially improving shield defneces by, say, 10% (randomized results), the player could then decide to apply the research results by assigning a practical team (or more teams so as to simulate competition) to develop a prototype. The theoretical results also may affect several practical branches so the player could order prototyping for each affected branch. The results of prototyping would also be random based on the ratio achieved in the theoretical phase.

The player has finally the choice to accept one of the prototypes and order it into production.



The theoretical research could also result in opening new areas of research.



This model doesn't need a large tech tree as each node can be constantly improved unless declared obsolete.



Such a model would overcome the typical in the long run boring determinacy most 4x game suffer.

TrashMan wrote:
So I guess that's why there's no research is being done on solar-powered or electric cars....:rolleyes:

Haha, good one. Well, altough you do have a point there, in a sci-fi setting there (usually) is no danger of running out of deuterium, hydrogen, etc. You can just send more cloudscoops to a gas giant or whatever.

The main reason behind the idea of excluding alternative (side) techs (A1, A2, etc) is to make each civ specialize. You could just research the whole tech tree like in every other game, and that is boring and just makes them all too alike.

I always try to win by technological victory So more is better But any kind of tree is acceptable.

No to a tech tree at all.



Technology cannot be simplified into a simple thing like a tree.



It is more of a web, with criss-crossed paths to various advancements.





Starting from a centre point, moving out in an expanding web, with some technologies having multiple prerequisites that must all be met, some which only a few prerequisites must be met (and that then open a backward path to the others prerequisite technologies), some which are just linear progression, some which have prerequisite technologies, but also prerequisite events/holdings, and some of them can have multiple paths to the same technological breakthrough, once more opening up a back-tracking option.



For my crazy example, let's just say the creation of Mass Driver technology is dependent on Miniaturization reaching Pico level, Energy Systems having at least Tera supply level (or Giga level, and high Power Efficiency), Asteroid Harvesting, and Gravitational Distortion... The technology is used to harvest asteroids, refine them, and fire them at ships and planets. A devastating power that requires all of these things to be in place to get the job done.

Sounds like a tree with multiple conditions for me.

Zep' wrote:
Sounds like a tree with multiple conditions for me.

This. I think that whatever way they decide to make it, I really wish they consider having a general tech tree/web/whatever and a separate racial tech tree/web/whatever. It really adds flavor to the game.

chronicdiscord wrote:
No to a tech tree at all.



Technology cannot be simplified into a simple thing like a tree.



It is more of a web, with criss-crossed paths to various advancements.





Starting from a centre point, moving out in an expanding web, with some technologies having multiple prerequisites that must all be met, some which only a few prerequisites must be met (and that then open a backward path to the others prerequisite technologies), some which are just linear progression, some which have prerequisite technologies, but also prerequisite events/holdings, and some of them can have multiple paths to the same technological breakthrough, once more opening up a back-tracking option.



For my crazy example, let's just say the creation of Mass Driver technology is dependent on Miniaturization reaching Pico level, Energy Systems having at least Tera supply level (or Giga level, and high Power Efficiency), Asteroid Harvesting, and Gravitational Distortion... The technology is used to harvest asteroids, refine them, and fire them at ships and planets. A devastating power that requires all of these things to be in place to get the job done.

That's more or less what I suggested as the last option on the poll (explained in a later post). A technology progress driven by game/civilization progress, not the civilization driven by clicks on the research tree.

Web of technological options that are constant across playthroughs, but not between species gets my vote. It's a serious pain in the ass to track down what you want to eventually get to research if it keeps moving or doesn't even exist on some playthroughs. That said, having separate webs for each species allows for some pretty impressive diversity across factions.

Conditional Technology criteria are all too rare in 4x titles, it seems, and I like the way in which that can add interesting dynamic wrinkles in every game - so I voted for that. I also appreciate the multiple lines - fixed approach, assuming I read the intent right - what I think of when I see that kind of terminology applied is something like the Space Empire series, where some races can choose to have access to specific tech trees that not everybody is going to be able to access throughout the game. I love that sort of thing, provided that those technologies are a benefit on par with other selectable options for races at game creation (neither underpowered nor absurdly overpowered).

I have a question regarding the technologies we'll have access to in the game. Will there be a tech tree branch dealing with psychological effects or even psionics? And will we have to research something like universal translators before we an contact other species?

I agree, the idea of choosing some additional tech tree(s) at the the start really spices up the game, an example is Legends of Pegasus. I know it's not out yet but from what I saw in dev vids is that you can choose two unique tech trees from about 12 or more. And I think that's a brilliant idea.

Ragnarok357 wrote:
Conditional Technology criteria are all too rare in 4x titles, it seems, and I like the way in which that can add interesting dynamic wrinkles in every game - so I voted for that. I also appreciate the multiple lines - fixed approach, assuming I read the intent right - what I think of when I see that kind of terminology applied is something like the Space Empire series, where some races can choose to have access to specific tech trees that not everybody is going to be able to access throughout the game. I love that sort of thing, provided that those technologies are a benefit on par with other selectable options for races at game creation (neither underpowered nor absurdly overpowered).

I dislike optimal path research systems like CIV.I prefer a system with some randomisation involved.Sword of the Stars or to a lesser degree MOO2 is what I would choose.

I think options are in order. Research one thing but not the other... making choices is what its all about.

Or one can research both but the other one costs or reduce the effect of the other.

I think there is something important that is not included in this poll : if the player have a unlimited amount of time & resources, will it be possible for him to acquire all techs or just a limited amount of them.

In Heagemonia for instance you begin with a fixed amount of research point, BIG tech trees, and...make your choice, and wisely because there is no turning back. For me it was one of the killer feature of that game because you do not just click randomly on a research because you already know that one day you will be able to acquire them all, even in 1 player game, because in the end if you waste research points in a useless, or less useful research, you might won't be able to have that kick-ass tech that could help you to win the game.

IMO the fourth option is the best. You have a traditional research tree, keep the same for all players, but with the added bonus that the benefits of each tech varies according each species. This allows for varied play styles and adds replayability to the game. The alternative to select it makes no sense, as that would never happen in real life; alternatively to have it be totally random, is too much of challenge to long term planning. The additional conditions is also a great gameplay device, this could apply to special research branches such as telepathy or AI; as they have been implemented in other previous games already.

I completely agree - in all honesty, being able to research everything on a tree looks great... until you actually do it. I think it would be a brilliant concept having options that cause you to specialize in certain areas at the expense of others - for example, you may choose to apply a specialization to a missile branch of weaponary, at the expense of laser and photons etc - the end result being that you gain bonuses or access to niche technologies that are only available through missile specialization, but weakening your other areas of the weapons tree or restricting the amount of access to the higher levels. Or to put it another way, say your base level for researched weapon technologies was 8 (ie there are 8 different techs to each field) - by specializing in one field of technology you gain access to an additional 2 uber techs (which would increase your selected area of specialization to 10), but lose 2 levels from the opposing techs (from 8 >6), this would lead you to still being able to research all three tech branches, but forces the player to strategically plan ahead and wear the repercussions of their decisions.



This could also apply to other tech branches as well... instead of being able to colonize almost everything (eg desert, gas, barren worlds etc) that are normally locked into the research tree, you would be forced to choose your second preferred environment, third preferred environment etc - each one you pick to research lowers the stats on the remainder - so if out of 5 habitation/environment fields you choose in order: Plains, Jungle, Desert, Ocean and Gas - it would mean that your race would specialize in a Plains enviroment which would have the greatest bonuses and scaling down through to Gas environments which would have the worst or negative figures.



One of the disappointing things I found in 4x games was the eXpansion element - being able to eventually settle nearly all planet types wasn't any fun. Seriously, where is the strategy in that? I would rather have been crippled with environments and have them continually requiring resources to survive (putting a stain on the rest of the empire) than to simply have a runaway expansion settling everything orbiting a distant star.



IF the research tree could be constructed in such away to allow for specialzations at the expense of neighboring fields of technologies, I believe it would definitely make life alot more challenging and strategic for all players involved - especially multi-player.



Jase.

Great points, Jase. The colonisation aspect in most 4X games is an almost surefire thing. Not that we want this to lose much of the fun and pomp of a grand space opera via droll hard science, but I think colonisation efforts need to be utterly fragile and prone to failure - at least in the early game. This would be faction/species specific, granted, but simply sending colony ships to an alien world should be a dangerous exercise.



I wouldn't go so far as to suggest things like systems failures on ships outside of combat - but personally, I'd love such a thing - but to have a tech tree borne out of situational failures as well as scientific progression and discoveries would be great.

Pylon wrote:
Great points, Jase. The colonisation aspect in most 4X games is an almost surefire thing. Not that we want this to lose much of the fun and pomp of a grand space opera via droll hard science, but I think colonisation efforts need to be utterly fragile and prone to failure - at least in the early game. This would be faction/species specific, granted, but simply sending colony ships to an alien world should be a dangerous exercise.



I wouldn't go so far as to suggest things like systems failures on ships outside of combat - but personally, I'd love such a thing - but to have a tech tree borne out of situational failures as well as scientific progression and discoveries would be great.

Yes I can see it now: scrolling ticker headline flying across the screen * Commander, our colony ship 241 was being piloted by a noob when it exited from hyperspace... 5km inside the planets crust. Our Human Resources department is being investigated * LOL!

Pylon wrote:
but I think colonisation efforts need to be utterly fragile and prone to failure - at least in the early game. This would be faction/species specific, granted, but simply sending colony ships to an alien world should be a dangerous exercise.

I am not sure. A possible failure would be first very frustrating for the player, especially in early-game, and moreover it would impair too much the development of a player...just based on luck.

What if you fail your first colony ? and your second ? While the other players actually achieve them ?

You just began the game and you are already late. I would personally ragequit because reasons of such a failure (being late) should be because of my poor skills and not because of bad luck.

Zep' wrote:
I think there is something important that is not included in this poll : if the player have a unlimited amount of time & resources, will it be possible for him to acquire all techs or just a limited amount of them..

Both number 3 and 7 are like this, when you discover a tech , you can choose one/some of it practical appliances but not all. Meaning you have to make choices as you cannot rediscover the same technology again.



It seems no one is after last option, which although hard to code would be something new in the genre. What I meant by last option is that, not only previous tech in the tree should be discovered in order to allow for another technology to become researchable but also other conditions should apply. Some examples:



You've discovered comptuers, but without widely build computer industry, there would not be projects like Human Genome Project.

Without know that there are somewhere "toxic" planets, no one would think of trying to research colonizing technology for it.

Having a vast empire across many system , might push a need to develop new form of communication, goverment , trade etc which a civilization limited to single system would never pursue.

Having a peaceful civ would never make you pursuit for engines of war, but might develop some courious socialogy and dimplomatic techs.

Discovering let say plasma torpedos and having 0 or 1 ship with them, is not the same as having plasma torpedos on 100 ships which wage war for 100 years. The latter could develop better versions of the or simply discover some other things.

Let me make a progression tree.



Race A wage war with race B.

Race A uses a lot of plasma torpedos.

Race B is then more likely to find a solution for a protection against plasma torpedos then any other race.

And in turn Race A is more likely to develop newer torpedos.



If all research requirements and cost would be fixed / same for everyone. It would mean that a peaceful race C could develop better torpedos and protection against them then any other race , which I think it slightly unrealistic. As in real life they would pursuit a totally different things.



A technology driven like this would really change how you perceive it each game, as the actual conditions in game would point to where your technology is going. It would also put much more variety between players in given game and make technology trading much more interesting.

tkozlow wrote:
Both number 3 and 7 are like this, when you discover a tech , you can choose one/some of it practical appliances but not all. Meaning you have to make choices as you cannot rediscover the same technology again.

Oh I didn't understand. Thank you for the explanation

I think it makes more sense that each race has its own unique techs. For one its more realistic, and two its funner because it makes each race unique, which really adds to the replayability value. It was something that bothered me in other games like SOTS.

Though certain techs could be general. Another thing unique research trees add is that it increases the importance of espionage and diplomacy, because if only a certain race gets a certain tech it means the only way for other races to get it would be through diplomacy and espionage and maybe battle. But most important thing is to have tons of techs, because in other games like Sins of a solar Empire you can research the entire tech tree in an hour or so, after which no side has a clear tech advantage and its always fun to have a tech advantage.

Zep' wrote:
I am not sure. A possible failure would be first very frustrating for the player, especially in early-game, and moreover it would impair too much the development of a player...just based on luck.

What if you fail your first colony ? and your second ? While the other players actually achieve them ?

You just began the game and you are already late. I would personally ragequit because reasons of such a failure (being late) should be because of my poor skills and not because of bad luck.

I suppose that's a more extreme example, and of course it'd have to be optional, but to have technological breakthroughs that aren't simply climbing a tech tree and actually reflect the growth, ups and downs of an empire is something I've yet to experience and relish the thought. Finding out your starting fleet weaponry has no effect against an alien fleet armour or shields and scrambling your scientists to find out just what the hell they can come up with to best or counter it. I suppose what I'm saying is I want a dynamic tech tree climb that not only takes into consideration the luxuries of choice, but innovation through necessity.



It's a tall order and a very hard thing to even conceptualise, let alone put into practice...but a man can dream.

Just an other thought: Technology could be based on a combination of species dependent technology plus technology you find distributed randomly in ancient ruins etc. Say: You find a ancient ruin, explore it and get a blueprint for a technology, that you still have to invest research time, but which would not have been available to you, if you would not have discovered it by exploration. That would award exploration oriented players.



Meridos42

[LIST=1]

Fixed Tech Tree, fixed appliances on each tech , same for everyone.

Fixed Tech Tree, fixed appliances on each tech , based on species/abilities

Fixed Tech Tree, selectable appliances on each tech (MOO2 like)

Fixed Tech Tree, appliance randomly generated at start of the game and visible.

Fixed Tech Tree, appliances randomly generated after dicovering the technology.

Multiple Fixed Tech "Lines" ,fixed appliances. (Separate tree/line for each type of technology/science , ie physcis,chemistry etc (MOO2 like) or Shields/Missiles/Industry...

Multiple Fixed Tech "Lines" ,selectable appliances (MOO2)

Any of the above with additional requirement for certain techs. (special techs). Certain requiring certain conditions, ie killing Space Crystal, colonizing certain type of planet, having more then certain amount of ships/population/systems, discovering artefact etc.

No pure research, everything depandable on factors other than tech tree.

[/LIST]

JFS1988 wrote:
I think it makes more sense that each race has its own unique techs. For one its more realistic, and two its funner because it makes each race unique, which really adds to the replayability value. It was something that bothered me in other games like SOTS.

Though certain techs could be general. Another thing unique research trees add is that it increases the importance of espionage and diplomacy, because if only a certain race gets a certain tech it means the only way for other races to get it would be through diplomacy and espionage and maybe battle. But most important thing is to have tons of techs, because in other games like Sins of a solar Empire you can research the entire tech tree in an hour or so, after which no side has a clear tech advantage and its always fun to have a tech advantage.

I agree, some racespecific to add a bit of gamestyle difference to them is good.



Some other options to make techs availble is if you have to do alternative stuff to just research to get techs... like you have to steal blueprints for a building from race X to get a special tech named Y. That adds more than just a "I got these techs cause im that race"-thingy that most games with that kind of techtree/hero-progression has.

I posted this in another thread but this one may be more appropriate...



I'd like to put in that I really really would like a tech stagnation option. For those of you who are not familiar with this it means you can set relative tech costs as an option at the start of the game. For example +250% tech costs, for myself I always choose something along these lines as I often felt like you would research something and half the time you wouldn't even build any of them as you can skip to the next tech without exposing yourself too much etc (Mostly I am referring to the civ series, but either way I like protracted periods with minor advances )

Ok here is my idea. I have been playing Mass Effect 3 along with Ascendancy and it sparked this.



At the start of the game, all races start with the basic tech, like food gathering or w/e the race uses to grow and expand. From here you can place research points on 2 options.



(A) Current tech that has already been discovered for new appliances(?). For instance after you have researched Space Travel for humans, you can place research points into space travel and random appliance will become available after a random amount of turns. Let's say you get an improved engine for the space shuttle, which allows travel to mars possible and faster then normal space travel. While at your first visit to mars, you discover an inactive probe from another race...



(B) You put research points into new technology that has been acquired from other races(like finding the probe and reverse engineering it only to found it about a new fuel that can be synthetically made which improves space travel etc, or finding out a new race and acquiring tech through trade which then you have to place research points into to figure out how it works and how to make it) or tech that has been discovered from previous tech(like roads after getting the wheel in civ5).



Anyways, these are my 2 cents, forgive me if this will not work for Endless Space, I have just recently found out about this game and have not read all the lore (there is a lot!).

I agree, half the time I wouldn't bother using certain units because I knew I would get one even better n no time at all which is why I usually played on epic. GalCiv 2 had a system that worked relatively well, but unfortunately you didn't have to bother researching certain techs because the AIs were more or less willing to trade you all their techs. You could of course ban all tech trading at the beginning but it was rather annoying, on the other hand in SOTS it takes forever to trade anything so it should be balanced.

So a system where you can chose the rate of research is a good idea.

SOTS had a nice techtree based on species odds to get the tech. If you failed the check (that was made once at the beginning of the game) - you lost any access to that tech and those coming after it. You could salvage the missing tech or get them from allies, but the tech above it still was unavailable to you (which is not funny IMHO). Random techtree increased replayability of the game.



MASTER OF ORION 2 had the most well-thought techtree ever designed:

1. the techtree was divided into 8 disciplines: biology, physics, engineering, chemistry, power, electronics, sociology, fields. Each had 10-11 tiers with 2-3 techs in each.

2. you had to choose one tech from a list of 2-3 equally powerful techs leading to planning your strategic decisions far ahead. Other techs from a tier were lost after you got the chosen one.

3. each weapon or a piece of ship equipment had refinement levels if you get further into that discipline. Each refinement level reduced construction cost and size of the piece of equipment. Weapons also got various options such as auto-fire, continuous, MIRV and Armored for missiles etc.

4. you could gain access to the techs via artefacts (giving you 1-2 techs from available for research), espionage and trade, but you had to develop at least one tech from a tier to progress to a new one.

5. the choice of techs was balanced in such a way that some of the species had to choose something to neutralize their weakness rather than getting a nicey and shooty gun or powerful shield or a tough armor.



I like to see a techtree with techs being random and species-dependant (SOTS), having multiple tiers with each having choice of 2-3 techs (MOO2) and with some additional spin-off projects being unavailable until you complete a requirement for it or get enough experience with its predecessor (either by using it or being used by it against you). Something like this:



- BRANCH A

-- Tier A with 2 techs from the list (species one being a priority):

--- tech 1 (species 1)

--- tech 2 (species 2)

--- tech 3 (universal)

--- tech 4 (universal)

--- tech 5 (universal)



-- Tier B with 3 techs from the list:

--- tech 1 (species 3)

--- tech 2 (species 4)

--- tech 3 (universal)

--- tech 4 (universal)

--- tech 5 (universal)

-- etc.



- LIST FOR SPECIAL PROJECTS (without tiers, depending on requirement)

--- counter to tech B1

--- boost to tech C3

--- tech SP1 that requires certain resource or condition



etc.

Okim wrote:
SOTS had a nice techtree based on species odds to get the tech. If you failed the check (that was made once at the beginning of the game) - you lost any access to that tech and those coming after it. You could salvage the missing tech or get them from allies, but the tech above it still was unavailable to you (which is not funny IMHO). Random techtree increased replayability of the game.

Personally I couldn't play MOO2 because of the tech tree. It meant that every damn game could have a semi-predictable outcome on what would be picked in the tech tree.



SOTS, in my opinion, has the best tech tree of any game ever. It encourages replayability because on your next run of the game, the tech tree WILL be different, so you can't create a godly ship design that destroys everything in its path. Battles remain fun, even if you have not got much military tech. It seems like that if you fail techs in one section, you will succeed in another. In SOTS II, this showed when I was playing the game on multiplayer. I did not get a single technology for shielding, while I did get a good amount of armour technology. So instead of being dependent on shields, I used armour instead.



The random tech tree kept things fresh. There are a few techs that are really rare, sure, but they will come up eventually, either on your side, or the enemies. Some techs have multiple links, and therefore multiple chances.

Yes, that`s why i wish to have tiers with one choice, but with randomly picked techs

I have to throw my two coins into the same same but different category (same basic tree but random outcomes for each race). This makes espionage more useful and gives the game a lot more ebb and flow as tech and counter tech is developed.



I enjoyed MOO how you could conquer a colony and take research, use espionage and steal it, trade it with ur space buds or hide in your corner of the galaxy and just do your own.

A little correction to my previous post



That`s why i wish to have different branches with multiple tiers in each, with each tier having 2-3 techs randomly picked from a list of 4-6 available with prioritising on species special techs for that tier. One choice per tier, unlimited trade/salvage/stealing. Additional list of techs that depend on events, resource availability, conditions and on researched techs.

I would also add that, though research is important it shouldn't be the end all be all. I remember games like Deadlock (back in the age of 4X the '90s) where research was so important that it ruined an otherwise great game. If you fell behind you might as well start over.



As i mentioned slipping in technology should allow you to change tactics using one of the other 3X to gain an edge over your opponents. Even better would be if you had to beat different races in different ways. i.e. You may be a tradecentric race but then you come across a race that doesn't want any of your goods... only your land and you abruptly better have some friends with big guns to help you out or you're... Dust.

I'd prefer a fixed tech tree with appliances based on species/ abilities. I'm curuous how the different premade and custom species will affect the tech tree throughout the game.

I suppose that this can be governed by species family and some race atributes. Say insectoids or races with hive mind might get a tech with a bonus against enemy espionage. Cats or race with additional accuracy bonus migh get a better computer to further improve their combat performance. Etc.