Sounds like a tree with multiple conditions for me.

Zep' wrote:
Sounds like a tree with multiple conditions for me.

This. I think that whatever way they decide to make it, I really wish they consider having a general tech tree/web/whatever and a separate racial tech tree/web/whatever. It really adds flavor to the game.

chronicdiscord wrote:
No to a tech tree at all.



Technology cannot be simplified into a simple thing like a tree.



It is more of a web, with criss-crossed paths to various advancements.





Starting from a centre point, moving out in an expanding web, with some technologies having multiple prerequisites that must all be met, some which only a few prerequisites must be met (and that then open a backward path to the others prerequisite technologies), some which are just linear progression, some which have prerequisite technologies, but also prerequisite events/holdings, and some of them can have multiple paths to the same technological breakthrough, once more opening up a back-tracking option.



For my crazy example, let's just say the creation of Mass Driver technology is dependent on Miniaturization reaching Pico level, Energy Systems having at least Tera supply level (or Giga level, and high Power Efficiency), Asteroid Harvesting, and Gravitational Distortion... The technology is used to harvest asteroids, refine them, and fire them at ships and planets. A devastating power that requires all of these things to be in place to get the job done.

That's more or less what I suggested as the last option on the poll (explained in a later post). A technology progress driven by game/civilization progress, not the civilization driven by clicks on the research tree.

Web of technological options that are constant across playthroughs, but not between species gets my vote. It's a serious pain in the ass to track down what you want to eventually get to research if it keeps moving or doesn't even exist on some playthroughs. That said, having separate webs for each species allows for some pretty impressive diversity across factions.

Conditional Technology criteria are all too rare in 4x titles, it seems, and I like the way in which that can add interesting dynamic wrinkles in every game - so I voted for that. I also appreciate the multiple lines - fixed approach, assuming I read the intent right - what I think of when I see that kind of terminology applied is something like the Space Empire series, where some races can choose to have access to specific tech trees that not everybody is going to be able to access throughout the game. I love that sort of thing, provided that those technologies are a benefit on par with other selectable options for races at game creation (neither underpowered nor absurdly overpowered).

I have a question regarding the technologies we'll have access to in the game. Will there be a tech tree branch dealing with psychological effects or even psionics? And will we have to research something like universal translators before we an contact other species?

I agree, the idea of choosing some additional tech tree(s) at the the start really spices up the game, an example is Legends of Pegasus. I know it's not out yet but from what I saw in dev vids is that you can choose two unique tech trees from about 12 or more. And I think that's a brilliant idea.

Ragnarok357 wrote:
Conditional Technology criteria are all too rare in 4x titles, it seems, and I like the way in which that can add interesting dynamic wrinkles in every game - so I voted for that. I also appreciate the multiple lines - fixed approach, assuming I read the intent right - what I think of when I see that kind of terminology applied is something like the Space Empire series, where some races can choose to have access to specific tech trees that not everybody is going to be able to access throughout the game. I love that sort of thing, provided that those technologies are a benefit on par with other selectable options for races at game creation (neither underpowered nor absurdly overpowered).

I dislike optimal path research systems like CIV.I prefer a system with some randomisation involved.Sword of the Stars or to a lesser degree MOO2 is what I would choose.

I think options are in order. Research one thing but not the other... making choices is what its all about.

Or one can research both but the other one costs or reduce the effect of the other.

I think there is something important that is not included in this poll : if the player have a unlimited amount of time & resources, will it be possible for him to acquire all techs or just a limited amount of them.

In Heagemonia for instance you begin with a fixed amount of research point, BIG tech trees, and...make your choice, and wisely because there is no turning back. For me it was one of the killer feature of that game because you do not just click randomly on a research because you already know that one day you will be able to acquire them all, even in 1 player game, because in the end if you waste research points in a useless, or less useful research, you might won't be able to have that kick-ass tech that could help you to win the game.

IMO the fourth option is the best. You have a traditional research tree, keep the same for all players, but with the added bonus that the benefits of each tech varies according each species. This allows for varied play styles and adds replayability to the game. The alternative to select it makes no sense, as that would never happen in real life; alternatively to have it be totally random, is too much of challenge to long term planning. The additional conditions is also a great gameplay device, this could apply to special research branches such as telepathy or AI; as they have been implemented in other previous games already.

I completely agree - in all honesty, being able to research everything on a tree looks great... until you actually do it. I think it would be a brilliant concept having options that cause you to specialize in certain areas at the expense of others - for example, you may choose to apply a specialization to a missile branch of weaponary, at the expense of laser and photons etc - the end result being that you gain bonuses or access to niche technologies that are only available through missile specialization, but weakening your other areas of the weapons tree or restricting the amount of access to the higher levels. Or to put it another way, say your base level for researched weapon technologies was 8 (ie there are 8 different techs to each field) - by specializing in one field of technology you gain access to an additional 2 uber techs (which would increase your selected area of specialization to 10), but lose 2 levels from the opposing techs (from 8 >6), this would lead you to still being able to research all three tech branches, but forces the player to strategically plan ahead and wear the repercussions of their decisions.



This could also apply to other tech branches as well... instead of being able to colonize almost everything (eg desert, gas, barren worlds etc) that are normally locked into the research tree, you would be forced to choose your second preferred environment, third preferred environment etc - each one you pick to research lowers the stats on the remainder - so if out of 5 habitation/environment fields you choose in order: Plains, Jungle, Desert, Ocean and Gas - it would mean that your race would specialize in a Plains enviroment which would have the greatest bonuses and scaling down through to Gas environments which would have the worst or negative figures.



One of the disappointing things I found in 4x games was the eXpansion element - being able to eventually settle nearly all planet types wasn't any fun. Seriously, where is the strategy in that? I would rather have been crippled with environments and have them continually requiring resources to survive (putting a stain on the rest of the empire) than to simply have a runaway expansion settling everything orbiting a distant star.



IF the research tree could be constructed in such away to allow for specialzations at the expense of neighboring fields of technologies, I believe it would definitely make life alot more challenging and strategic for all players involved - especially multi-player.



Jase.

Great points, Jase. The colonisation aspect in most 4X games is an almost surefire thing. Not that we want this to lose much of the fun and pomp of a grand space opera via droll hard science, but I think colonisation efforts need to be utterly fragile and prone to failure - at least in the early game. This would be faction/species specific, granted, but simply sending colony ships to an alien world should be a dangerous exercise.



I wouldn't go so far as to suggest things like systems failures on ships outside of combat - but personally, I'd love such a thing - but to have a tech tree borne out of situational failures as well as scientific progression and discoveries would be great.

Pylon wrote:
Great points, Jase. The colonisation aspect in most 4X games is an almost surefire thing. Not that we want this to lose much of the fun and pomp of a grand space opera via droll hard science, but I think colonisation efforts need to be utterly fragile and prone to failure - at least in the early game. This would be faction/species specific, granted, but simply sending colony ships to an alien world should be a dangerous exercise.



I wouldn't go so far as to suggest things like systems failures on ships outside of combat - but personally, I'd love such a thing - but to have a tech tree borne out of situational failures as well as scientific progression and discoveries would be great.

Yes I can see it now: scrolling ticker headline flying across the screen * Commander, our colony ship 241 was being piloted by a noob when it exited from hyperspace... 5km inside the planets crust. Our Human Resources department is being investigated * LOL!

Pylon wrote:
but I think colonisation efforts need to be utterly fragile and prone to failure - at least in the early game. This would be faction/species specific, granted, but simply sending colony ships to an alien world should be a dangerous exercise.

I am not sure. A possible failure would be first very frustrating for the player, especially in early-game, and moreover it would impair too much the development of a player...just based on luck.

What if you fail your first colony ? and your second ? While the other players actually achieve them ?

You just began the game and you are already late. I would personally ragequit because reasons of such a failure (being late) should be because of my poor skills and not because of bad luck.

Zep' wrote:
I think there is something important that is not included in this poll : if the player have a unlimited amount of time & resources, will it be possible for him to acquire all techs or just a limited amount of them..

Both number 3 and 7 are like this, when you discover a tech , you can choose one/some of it practical appliances but not all. Meaning you have to make choices as you cannot rediscover the same technology again.



It seems no one is after last option, which although hard to code would be something new in the genre. What I meant by last option is that, not only previous tech in the tree should be discovered in order to allow for another technology to become researchable but also other conditions should apply. Some examples:



You've discovered comptuers, but without widely build computer industry, there would not be projects like Human Genome Project.

Without know that there are somewhere "toxic" planets, no one would think of trying to research colonizing technology for it.

Having a vast empire across many system , might push a need to develop new form of communication, goverment , trade etc which a civilization limited to single system would never pursue.

Having a peaceful civ would never make you pursuit for engines of war, but might develop some courious socialogy and dimplomatic techs.

Discovering let say plasma torpedos and having 0 or 1 ship with them, is not the same as having plasma torpedos on 100 ships which wage war for 100 years. The latter could develop better versions of the or simply discover some other things.

Let me make a progression tree.



Race A wage war with race B.

Race A uses a lot of plasma torpedos.

Race B is then more likely to find a solution for a protection against plasma torpedos then any other race.

And in turn Race A is more likely to develop newer torpedos.



If all research requirements and cost would be fixed / same for everyone. It would mean that a peaceful race C could develop better torpedos and protection against them then any other race , which I think it slightly unrealistic. As in real life they would pursuit a totally different things.



A technology driven like this would really change how you perceive it each game, as the actual conditions in game would point to where your technology is going. It would also put much more variety between players in given game and make technology trading much more interesting.

tkozlow wrote:
Both number 3 and 7 are like this, when you discover a tech , you can choose one/some of it practical appliances but not all. Meaning you have to make choices as you cannot rediscover the same technology again.

Oh I didn't understand. Thank you for the explanation

I think it makes more sense that each race has its own unique techs. For one its more realistic, and two its funner because it makes each race unique, which really adds to the replayability value. It was something that bothered me in other games like SOTS.

Though certain techs could be general. Another thing unique research trees add is that it increases the importance of espionage and diplomacy, because if only a certain race gets a certain tech it means the only way for other races to get it would be through diplomacy and espionage and maybe battle. But most important thing is to have tons of techs, because in other games like Sins of a solar Empire you can research the entire tech tree in an hour or so, after which no side has a clear tech advantage and its always fun to have a tech advantage.

Zep' wrote:
I am not sure. A possible failure would be first very frustrating for the player, especially in early-game, and moreover it would impair too much the development of a player...just based on luck.

What if you fail your first colony ? and your second ? While the other players actually achieve them ?

You just began the game and you are already late. I would personally ragequit because reasons of such a failure (being late) should be because of my poor skills and not because of bad luck.

I suppose that's a more extreme example, and of course it'd have to be optional, but to have technological breakthroughs that aren't simply climbing a tech tree and actually reflect the growth, ups and downs of an empire is something I've yet to experience and relish the thought. Finding out your starting fleet weaponry has no effect against an alien fleet armour or shields and scrambling your scientists to find out just what the hell they can come up with to best or counter it. I suppose what I'm saying is I want a dynamic tech tree climb that not only takes into consideration the luxuries of choice, but innovation through necessity.



It's a tall order and a very hard thing to even conceptualise, let alone put into practice...but a man can dream.

Just an other thought: Technology could be based on a combination of species dependent technology plus technology you find distributed randomly in ancient ruins etc. Say: You find a ancient ruin, explore it and get a blueprint for a technology, that you still have to invest research time, but which would not have been available to you, if you would not have discovered it by exploration. That would award exploration oriented players.



Meridos42