kk, then we're talking about the most effective theoretical build in space: spheres. Let's take small balls of Radius r and compare them to large balls with radius R and compare how much mass we need to take into account if they both get the same armor with density rho and armor thickness dR.



The volume V occupied with armor is for the small ship V(r)=pi*(r^3-(r-dR)^3) and for the big ship V(R)=pi*(R^3-(R-dR)^3).



The mass of the armor plating is density rho times volume V. What is interesting, is how mass M=rho*V behaves in relation to size r or R.



So let's take M(R)/M(r)=pi/pi*(R^3-(R-dR)^3)/(r^3-(r-dR)^3)*rho/rho



Let's clean this up a little: M(R)/M(r)=(3*R^2-3*R*dR+dR^2)/(3*r^2-3*r*dR+dR^2)



If the armor thickness is comparatively small, dR^2 becomes negligible and for the sake of simplicity, r*dR and R*dR can be small, then:



M(R)/M(r) ~ R^2/r^2



That just tells us, if we like a 100 times bigger capital ships than fighters (R=100*r), that their armor alone will have approximately 10000 times the mass.



Just wanted to show how insanely huge and heavy things will get, really. XD

Nosferatiel wrote:
Durable is okay, but there really are some very lightweight large scale applications: http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/nanosail_chat2.html XD

Id rather not make stuff out of plastic either...

Also you have to keep in mind that its two very different ways of building ships. A big ship is usually more heavy armored as it contains more guns and stuff that weights more. Hence it is heavier.

Bigger should mean less ability to let the player target things. A big dreadnought just fires at everything. Small ships can be given precise orders like "target that scramble module so our damn torpedoes can hit that big nasty one !".

Smaller ships should be used in specialist roles like anti missile ships,torpedo ships,escorting when bigger ships appear.This is their role on the real world.

Durable is okay, but there really are some very lightweight large scale applications: http://www.nasa.gov/connect/chat/nanosail_chat2.html XD

Fair enough but size usually demands some sort of durability. In the cold of space id rather avoid anything made out of tin unless you are after a big dust-effect ^^

Alderbranch wrote:
Speed and manuverability is dependent on size for the most part. I mean theres a reason motorcycles outrun cars. ^^

More on inertia and engine power to mass ratio. Ship mass is the one limiting factor in space, since you don't have to take aerodynamics into account. If you were having a fight in the atmosphere, size would make a sizable contribution to your maximum speed.

But a biiiiiiiig tinfoil ship would still be more agile than a small neutronium armored fighter, if both have the same engine and inertia isn't meddled with.

Speed and manuverability is dependent on size for the most part. I mean theres a reason motorcycles outrun cars. ^^

VieuxChat wrote:
Speed. If it plays a central role on a space battle then little ships can get where bigger can't (so you can pin-point target that nasty module on the opposite dreadnought).

Rather maneuverability is the argument for small, agile crafts. Oh my god, the death ray! Just make a fast turn, nothing happens, even if it does there are hundreds more of the little beasts out there, no harm done. XD

Speed. If it plays a central role on a space battle then little ships can get where bigger can't (so you can pin-point target that nasty module on the opposite dreadnought).

Id like if accuracy of bigger ships toward smaller ships was decreased. That way it becomes a rock-paper-scissor-like build to most fleets if one focus on just one shipsize.

Mostly since a bunch of small ships can take out a much bigger ship while a bigger ship takes out medium ships more easily and medium takes out small.

I feel the old wooden ships analogy is a good one for balance.



not every ship is suitable for every task.



some task types:

Blockade - blockades tended to be consisting of quick ships able to determine the identity of an unknown sail, bring it to grips and allow the slower heavier gunned ships to be brought to bear. -

Blockade running - tiny, discreet extremely fast smuggler type crafts.

convoy escort - Boring, dull, slow work but necessary to prevent rich prizes falling under prey of enemy or pirates. -- big slow shipsotheline and a sloop for 'eyes'

pirate/privateer patrol - Gotta keep those blasted scum honest by scouring known trade routes - Frigate usually as they were fast and still stronger than their opponent.

Line of Battle - all my heavies vs. all your heavies. This tends to happen when one force feels they have the advantage and somehow forces the opponent into battle. -- this is everyone's favorite battle to watch.



the list goes on and on of course.



My point being... a 72 gun ship of the Line is next to useless for catching up with any smaller ship no matter how much firepower it has. However, if for some reason a frigate or smaller were to come under it's guns the fight would be over in minutes. Usually resulting in the ship being sunk directly, immediately surrendering, being dismasted then boarded or jumping to warp speed and escaping (those pesky frigates!)



From what I gather in the combat write-ups so far we have no boarding, surrendering or escaping?



So this results in combat something like: see enemy, enemy can't run away so calc gun types/gun strength vs. shield type/shield strength



If that is the final combat model we should always just build the biggest ship we can afford with the most gun/shield variety we can every time. not much incentive for a mixed fleet or lots and lots of pesky little guys?

Boygor wrote:
I like the idea of ships being confined in range due to size unless accompanied by other ships but surely this would have to take into account your technology? If I wanted to make some kind of scout i'd pack in as much range and speed amplifing tech into a smaller hull design rather than send a scout out with a battleship (although some kind of carrier would work here)... It's a nice idea.

I agree. Most of what I meant was that dedicated fighters/bombers/anything not recon and exploration would have a limited range (not accounting for range improvements due to technology). But another thing that I thought about was for many of the larger ships to have some (very little compared to say.... a carrier) space for fighters/bombers or whatever else you want.

Lateinshowing wrote:
Don't know if this has been said (couldn't find it in what I've read so far) and if it has then I'm throwing my two cents in, but there should be a balance big and small ships.



You shouldn't be able to go with just one type. All big ships would fill some general roles with a few exceptions, acting as carriers/fuel dumps for the smaller ships (like in real life, I think modern battleships carry fuel for the destroyers that accompany it), since it doesn't make sense that a small destroyer, ect. could go huge distances without refueling (unless it was built for exploration and not combat). So you couldn't just go for just big ships since it would not be cost effective (barring some cirumstances such as dedicated platforms that would do a certain job better and cheaper than the smaller ship counterparts) and you can't just go for small ships since they would not have the range to go anywhere except intersolar travel.....maybe even less.

I like the idea of ships being confined in range due to size unless accompanied by other ships but surely this would have to take into account your technology? If I wanted to make some kind of scout i'd pack in as much range and speed amplifing tech into a smaller hull design rather than send a scout out with a battleship (although some kind of carrier would work here)... It's a nice idea.

Don't know if this has been said (couldn't find it in what I've read so far) and if it has then I'm throwing my two cents in, but there should be a balance big and small ships.



You shouldn't be able to go with just one type. All big ships would fill some general roles with a few exceptions, acting as carriers/fuel dumps for the smaller ships (like in real life, I think modern battleships carry fuel for the destroyers that accompany it), since it doesn't make sense that a small destroyer, ect. could go huge distances without refueling (unless it was built for exploration and not combat). So you couldn't just go for just big ships since it would not be cost effective (barring some cirumstances such as dedicated platforms that would do a certain job better and cheaper than the smaller ship counterparts) and you can't just go for small ships since they would not have the range to go anywhere except intersolar travel.....maybe even less.

as long as the AI follows good logic to combat your fleet config all is well.



Remember those fleets of 1000s of fighters and destroyers from MOO, etc. they either immediately swarmed your super duper battleship, or if your tech was right, were completely ineffectual.



One of the big balancing factors for me was always repairs. Take SOASE for example. if you have a high repair rate you could use your battleship to soak up all the enemy fire (with force attacking) while the rest of your fleet simply increases firepower with minimal risk for losses. This quickly gets unbalanced and forces creative combat models.



Perhaps this is one of the reasons I like the turn-based/phased combat model. No more of that jump in/fire torp array/ jump out stuff. You get a chance to see them coming and at least form some strategy of how to respond.

Smaller ships shoul play a support role to bigger ships, a more surgical approach then a big ship, which is a hammer

I'm not too keen on the idea of having a special class bonus for a dinstinct size of ship. It'll pigeonhole hull sizes and potentially reveal your strategy to the enemy as soon as they get a look at your fleet.



I see no reason that a battleship (or any ship size for that matter) could not be specifically configured to take out any other class of vessel. It'll be a huge incentive to get some spies in the enemy camp...

Hi



At the beginning I'd like to apologise for any spelling or grammatical errors. Unfortunately English is my second language.



I'm glad that I'm not the only person to regret not using small ship in late part of the game. I was thinking for a while how to force players to use all kinds of ships. This is the effect of my hard and painful:P job:



1) Ship classes

To beggin with I thought of few ship classes that should be introduced to the game. The way to distinguish each class should be ships weight. My proposition is:

a) fighter/bomber

b) corvette

c) destroyer

d) cruiser

e) battleship



2) Special class bonuses

Then I've given each ship class a bonus:

a) fighter/bomber -> speed

b) corvette -> ECM/electronic warfare bonus

c) destroyer -> Point Defence fire rate

d) cruiser -> manoeuvrability

e) battleship -> shield stopping power



3) Ship vs ship advantage

Next I thought of how the ship classes can interact with each other in the battle:

a) fighter/bomber has advantage over battleships and penalty with destroyers

b) corvette has advantage with destroyers and penalty with cruisers

c) destroyer has advantage over fighters/bomber and penalty with corvettes

d) cruiser has advantage over corvettes and penalty with battleships

e) battleship has advantage over cruisers and penalty with fighters/bombers



4) Ships weapons/special equipment:

Now let's give each class something to even further increase its usefulness:

a) fighter/bomber -> proton torpedo that bypasses shields

b) corvette -> ECM system that greatly reduces missle hit probability

c) destroyer -> targeting system that greatly increases point defence weapons accuracy

d) cruiser -> extra manoeuvre engines that make cruiser as agile as smaller ships

e) battleship -> additional armour that makes this ship tougher



So now we have system where every ship is needed. If few bomber could easily take out battleship (and if not they cost is a fraction of battleship cost) we need destroyers for protection. If so the enemy needs corvettes so we need cruiser and so on...

caekdaemon wrote:
But what if I cover my dreadnought in the tiniest weapon I have?

Small doesn't necessarily equate to powerful. It may be that weapons of a certain calibre have no effect on heavy shields (for example) regardless of how much you throw at them rendering your dreadnought very ineffective at attacking large/ advanced ships.



If you are talking about minaturised but very powerful weapons then that's fair game - the fruits of your scientific endevours!