[Discussion] Hero abilities : science and dust

Calico

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 26, 2012, 7:07:09 AM

VieuxChat wrote:
Yay ! One ability for science, while there's... 8 for trade -___- and you have to take an ability that reduce dust cost... for a class that don't use battle cards.

Well, I still think the science guys lack something.

It's not just something, it's a whole lot of lacking.... hidden behind a (in 90%+ of all cases) useless trait and only a single one. You get like a zillion for trade (or 8), at least 3 for Food, dozens surronding battles and lots of other stuff. but only a single one (on a single class) for science? yep, there should be more. why not at least one with a flat bonus like production or food get? and the +20% one after that, instead of hidden behind something totally useless.

Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 30, 2012, 6:42:52 PM

ElegantCaveman wrote:
that tech doubles the "per citizen" boost given by luxury resources

Only part I needed. I knew the rest of it. It's just unclear what the tech does, because of that bit.

ElegantCaveman

Forgotten

ElegantCaveman

Forgotten

36 300g2g pts

12 years ago

May 30, 2012, 5:45:52 PM

Draco18s wrote:
I still haven't, exactly, figured out what this means (there's a tech for +100% FIDS from Luxury).

Planets can have either strategic (purple) or luxury (white) resources on them, each of which is unlocked by certain techs. Each of these give various bonuses, usually a "per citizen" boost (like extra food or industry), but sometimes to the system as a whole (like a bonus to happiness).

As Nosferatiel mentioned, FIDS is an acronym for Food, Industry, Dust and Science, and that tech doubles the "per citizen" boost given by luxury resources.

The United Empire also has a race-specific tech (Exploitive Algorithms, about mid-way through the science branch) which gives a similar bonus, but for strategic resources instead (on top of that, it also gives +1 to the deposit size, which can help you get the monopoly bonus in some cases, so it's quite a nice tech). The downside is that it's something you have to build on a system; the bonus doesn't just apply automatically across your empire as soon as you research the tech. Still, very nice.

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

47 300g2g pts

12 years ago

May 30, 2012, 5:23:05 PM

Draco18s wrote:
I still haven't, exactly, figured out what this means (there's a tech for +100% FIDS from Luxury).

Some luxury give Food, Industry, Dust or Science x ressource deposit per population point on that planet. By increasing the FIDS by 100%, this bonus is doubled.

Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 30, 2012, 4:46:34 PM

ElegantCaveman wrote:
FIDS bonus from luxury resources

I still haven't, exactly, figured out what this means (there's a tech for +100% FIDS from Luxury).

ElegantCaveman

Forgotten

ElegantCaveman

Forgotten

36 300g2g pts

12 years ago

May 30, 2012, 4:44:07 PM

Completely agreed with... well, pretty much everything that's been said here.

When I first started playing, I was really excited about the Corporate class (especially after seeing the nice bonuses Administrator had) and looking forward to some fancy science and dust bonus.

Instead... just a bunch of things to do with trade routes, which I never use? Seriously?! I was so disappointed. I didn't find out about Industry-Academic Partnership (the +20% to science one) until I finally looked at the wiki, hidden as it is (does anybody even use battle cards so often that ability has any use whatsoever?).

I was expecting something like administrator: basic abilities that add a bit to science or dust, and better ones that work with a percentage. FIDS bonus from luxury resources would also be logical (and a bonus to strategic resources would be nice for the Administrator).

As for trade routes... given how broken diplomacy is right now, all those abilities are a sad joke, more than anything else, at least for the time being. Of course, some of them are very nice, within context, and as much as people seem to generally hate the Corp class right now (and with good reason), I can imagine that shifting quickly to "ZOMG! Corp is OP!" if/when diplomacy gets changed and trade routes become more viable.

I also very much like OthobRithol's idea of special multi-class abilities (and Nosferatiel has some excellent suggestions with his brainstorm). This would add a lot of individuality and "personality" to the heroes. I'm finding that the Heroes is one of the things that really stand out for me in Endless Space, compared to similar games, and it would be great to build on this already very nice feature.

Lastly, the idea of a visible skill-tree (again, kudos OthobRithol): this needs to happen. I've been thinking the same for a while now; unless you study the wiki and memorize everything, you have to guess half the time and try to remember how you got that one thing you liked last time, even if you're not sure what class it was from. With only 20 levels (which can be capped relatively quickly, under the right circumstances), it's easy enough to miss out on what you want unless you're careful. This is doubly true for new players: when I was starting, I was taking random crappy abilities just to see if they unlocked anything interesting.

Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 29, 2012, 4:59:30 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
I still think that's a gap that should be filled. You can focus on invasion ("melee"), defense, offense, on dust, on food, on production. But not on science -___-

Fixed that for you.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

12 years ago

May 29, 2012, 4:20:08 PM

I still think that's a gap that should be filled. You can focus on war, on dust, on food, on production. But not on science -___-

VARRAKK

Heretic

VARRAKK

Heretic

12 100g2g pts

12 years ago

May 29, 2012, 10:18:05 AM

VieuxChat wrote:
Yay ! One ability for science, while there's... 8 for trade -___- and you have to take an ability that reduce dust cost... for a class that don't use battle cards.

Well, I still think the science guys lack something.

I think that's because of the Corporate skill and no scientist based heroes.

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

47 300g2g pts

12 years ago

May 27, 2012, 3:33:47 PM

OthobRithol wrote:
As much as I hate to admit it, I think a visible skill tree for heroes would serve much better.

In addition, there really needs to be a few abilities that have a prereq found only in another tree...something unique to each possible combination.

,

Good idea, let me brainstorm a bit:

Adventurer/Corporate

Archaeologist - Improves system science & dust generation by 10% per temple of the endless in the system

Adventurer/Administrator

Leading by example - Improves system approval by 30-place in industry production in the whole empire (so to say, an approval bonus for the industry highscore in the empire)

Adventurer/Pilot

Crazy maneuvers - (Battle Option - Tactics) Counters Offense: Increase damage evasion this phase by 30%(+20% if block), decrease damage dealt this phase by 30%(-20% if block), increases the effect of next phases battle card by 100% (perhaps overpowered and should be reduced)

Adventurer/Commander

Virus attack - (Battle Option - Sabotage) Counters Tactics: Randomly deactivate one enemy ship for the whole battlephase

Corporate/Administrator

Endless Economics - 10% FIDS bonus on system

Corporate/Pilot

Patent trade - Reduces fleet retrofit costs by 50% if the hero commands said fleet

Corporate/Commander

Bonus doctrine - Increases all combat stats by 15%, destroying ships costs 5 dust per destroyed command point with the fleet the hero commands

Administrator/Pilot

Endless Logistics - Repair rate of the fleet the hero commands is doubled in friendly and tripled in enemy systems

Administrator/Commander

Personnel organization - Ships in the fleet the hero commands gain XP 20% faster

Pilot/Commander

As above so below - Invasion efficiency of the fleet the hero commands is doubled

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

12 years ago

May 26, 2012, 7:04:52 PM

I like the possibility of special perk for multiclass.

OthobRithol

Newcomer

OthobRithol

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 26, 2012, 7:03:28 PM

As much as I hate to admit it, I think a visible skill tree for heroes would serve much better.

In addition, there really needs to be a few abilities that have a prereq found only in another tree...something unique to each possible combination.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

12 years ago

May 26, 2012, 7:00:51 PM

That's what I said. A science guy that would need to cut the use of dust for combat cards... they don't have (if they have been leveled up as a scientific guy) ?

Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 26, 2012, 2:31:48 PM

Calico wrote:
hidden behind something totally useless.

I just went and checked the wiki. Here's the ability the science bonus is hidden behind:

Dust Wielder 1: -30% Abilities Dust Cost on Hero

...What!?

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 5:44:45 PM

Apart the buff on wit, is there an ability that enhance the science output ? All the other things have bonuses (dust through trade, labor and food), but I just can't create a scientific hero.

About the dust part : there's only buff through trade. Why not some flat bonuses to dust generated in the planet ? As a craver player, the trade bonuses are totally useless. Totally.

Virus

Old

Virus

Old

20 800g2g pts

12 years ago

May 25, 2012, 3:55:23 PM

I agree that there are not enough abilities for science.

It like a joke to have a lot for industy, food, even trade but only one for science and with an requierment that is useless.

Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 25, 2012, 2:46:47 PM

We should probably add reusable "generic abilities" that can be gotten when there's nothing left that would be better, but still useful.

E.g. +1 Wit/Labor/Offense/Defense ability that just raises the one stat by 1. It's low return, but as you'd be able to take as many of them as you want, a hero would never hit "max" usefulness.

luki

Newcomer

luki

Newcomer

500g2g pts

12 years ago

May 25, 2012, 9:14:40 AM

True, this should be altered.

Especially for non diplomacy races (Carvers and Sowers?). They do not use trade at all, so almost (if not all) all dust hero perks are useless. Missing the same perks for science/dust as for production/food. +20 flat and +20%. I think they will be very popular.

Please make checking for develop non combat hero in war-loving races. I think You can find You have no perks worth to spend You last points. And this is wrong.

Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 24, 2012, 2:31:45 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
Yay ! One ability for science, while there's... 8 for trade -___- and you have to take an ability that reduce dust cost... for a class that don't use battle cards.

Well, I still think the science guys lack something.

And at least two for happiness (although one of them is useless, -50% disapproval from overpopulation; I have never seen that penalty rise higher than 1.8 percentage points off a system's happiness).

At least two for food, as well. I never get them, as my corporate/admin heroes tend to be in well established systems, although a friend of mine uses heroes as frogs, leaping around to new systems to boost their just-colonized productivity.

In my recent game I've gotten rather annoyed at the ability tree, as I've exhausted every useful ability (as I'm at war with every other race, I have 0 trade abilities, and all of my heroes are identical (yay Hortatio #1796!) and there's no way for me to get any more use out of more skill points...other than Veteran).

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 24, 2012, 9:40:15 AM

Sure.

But in the poll where they ask which heroes are the best and which are the worst, the corporate hero is clearly not at a good place. Maybe the devs will change him to make him look more attractive in this case.

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

12 years ago

May 24, 2012, 5:20:53 AM

Calico wrote:
Industry-Academic Partnership

+20% Science on Star System

Corporate Hero, prerequisite "Dust Wielder" (which is why this one gets no to be chosen by many)

Yay ! One ability for science, while there's... 8 for trade -___- and you have to take an ability that reduce dust cost... for a class that don't use battle cards.

Well, I still think the science guys lack something.

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 11:10:42 PM

I saw a googledoc created by a player with all the powers of heroes. But I don't know who it was. I just know someone did search about it.

davea

Newcomer

davea

Newcomer

700g2g pts

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 10:58:50 PM

IF ONLY there was some documentation on the ability trees, we would be able to find this out. This documentation is the only one which seems completely missing. Other documentation is available in one place or another, maybe it could be in more places. But ability tree documentation is entirely lacking.

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 10:47:42 PM

Thank You

Calico

Newcomer

Calico

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 7:52:56 PM

Industry-Academic Partnership

+20% Science on Star System

Corporate Hero, prerequisite "Dust Wielder" (which is why this one gets no to be chosen by many)

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 6:26:56 PM

Yes, for instance, if you need a science boost, it would be clever to hire a Sophon hero.

Anyway, even without that, there need a way to boost science and dust directly without a flat increase in WIT.

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

Photon_Ventdesdunes

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 23, 2012, 6:25:46 PM

It could be a good idea to have special bonus per factions. Like said Vieuchat, the trade aren't the better side of Cravers. To extand to all factions, their heroes could have special abilities considering their faction.

It could change according to the player faction like the hero learn the lifestyle of the faction which hired him.

It could change according to the hero faction and in this case, it could be more interesting to hire a hero from your faction as he has the bonus you want. In this case, we should maybe have more choice in the academy at the beginning for example.