I think the following mechanic would be a good one:



1) Cloaking module for scout-size ships only. That module would be big like the probe system, thus impairing the offensive capabilities. I'd suggest making it possible to activate it using a battle card, and only if all ships possess the cloaking device. Activating the cloaking device would cost dust - I'd suggest -10 dust to activate flat per fleet, or 5 dust per ship - and would allow the scout to bypass the combat with a defending fleet.



Optional mechanic: it could happen that the cloaking devices are not 100% perfect, or that even with cloacking it would still be possible to 'bump' into some enemy ship and be detected. For whatever reason, the initial effectiveness of the cloaking device is 80%. If it fails, the ship would still have to face combat.



Ship probes would reduce the cloaking effectiveness, and better cloaking devices would improve it as well.

ship fitting balance aside, what is the point of cloaking scout ships, especially late game? By then you have visibility one way or another on most systems. I still dont see a pressing need for this gameplay mechanic. It doesnt *really* add anything to the gameplay because fleets are generic, its not like an RTS where you might need to know the enemy's army comp to build a counter.

That could possibly work, but I see some potential problems with the system.



One, its more complicated and thus would be harder to enter into the game. I was looking at cloaking vessels as an upgrade for the purposes of spying only. If they were to add a more complex system, then I would say they probably ought to look into other potential uses for cloaking in order to support the need for such a complex system.



Also, the primary reason I suggested having a later-game upgrade that would prevent cloaked vessels from entering systems with them is because of zones of control and how they work. Since you cannot enter a zone of control of someone else unless you have a treaty that allows you to do so or are at open war with them, then you need cloaking to spy on them. You normally cannot visit these areas at all and cannot fly 'partway' there because ships cannot turn around mid-flight. Therefore, if there is a 'percent chance' of it working, then you would be able to just keep trying to fly there every turn until you get there. The way the flight works, either you have to be able to fly there or you cannot. Otherwise, they would have to make it so that flying there would be possible but it would kick you straight into War if you are caught, which would be possible - but would greatly diminish the use of cloaking I think.

NobleIre wrote:
I think a good way to include cloaking for scouting vessels only would be to limit it in certain ways:



1. Cloaking is a high-tonnage module.

2. Only the Corvette can utilize the stealth module (explained by the fact that larger, more powerful ships might have too large of an energy signature for the stealth field to conceal).

-Thus, these two attributes together would prevent any stealth ship from being used as a stealth attack vessel. It would be only for scouts.

3. The stealth module is not an early game upgrade, but an early-mid game upgrade. This way, treaties and cold war can serve its purpose early game and allow for some infiltration later game for spying purposes.

4. A noticeably late game system upgrade might add the ability for systems to detect stealth ships and prevent them from going there unnoticed.



The way I see it working, a cloaking module essentially makes your ship undetectable unless it is in a fleet with non-cloaked ships. Being undetectable, this ship would be able to enter into territories in which you otherwise wouldn't be able to enter because of zone of control.





That is the main way I would like to see cloaking work anyway.

1, 2 and 3: mostly agreed.



4: I imagine the mechanic a little different, as below.



Let's say the base cloaking module has a base effectiveness of 100%. It also improves all ship defenses by 20% but decreases weapon effectiveness by 20%.



An outpost will have a base detection effectiveness of 10%, and a colony has 20%.



On a simple encounter of a cloaked ship with an outpost system, there is a (cloaking - detection = 100 - 10 = 90) 90% chance the ship will pass by undetected. The outpost owner does not even see the ship on the empire screen. If the cloaking fails, the ship is detected and can be interacted with normally.



Each system influence upgrade (the white techs) will increase the detection rate (10/20/30% for example). Ships with probes also increase the detection rate. The base probe module adds 5% to the detection chance, and multiple ships with probes stack on the detection chance.



Each non-cloaking upgrade on the cloaked ship decreases cloaking effectiveness by 10%. A ship with probe, cloaking and engine modules would have 100 - 10 - 10 = 80% cloaking effectiveness.



Further cloaking upgrades would improve the base effectiveness to 120/140%, and the defense/attack bias to +25/-25, +30/-30 respectively.



The final formula would be:

% chance of cloaking = cloaking module rate - ((n. of modules - 1) * 10) - (system detection rate) - (n. of enemy ships with probes * 5)

Sounds promising, but it would just increase ES way of researching and counter research.

With a little delay witch I think is important because that makes all the difference. So its a grate suggestion!



If it would be made as all the other techs it would just be, different stages of the tech making it harder to discover vs easier to detect until you reach the final stage where (?) happens. It could be a addition because this kind of tech system works if its enough techs so that everybody can't discover everything, but right now its a bit to few techs in my opinion for this kind of percentage tech system to work.

I think a good way to include cloaking for scouting vessels only would be to limit it in certain ways:



1. Cloaking is a high-tonnage module.

2. Only the Corvette can utilize the stealth module (explained by the fact that larger, more powerful ships might have too large of an energy signature for the stealth field to conceal).

-Thus, these two attributes together would prevent any stealth ship from being used as a stealth attack vessel. It would be only for scouts.

3. The stealth module is not an early game upgrade, but an early-mid game upgrade. This way, treaties and cold war can serve its purpose early game and allow for some infiltration later game for spying purposes.

4. A noticeably late game system upgrade might add the ability for systems to detect stealth ships and prevent them from going there unnoticed.



The way I see it working, a cloaking module essentially makes your ship undetectable unless it is in a fleet with non-cloaked ships. Being undetectable, this ship would be able to enter into territories in which you otherwise wouldn't be able to enter because of zone of control.





That is the main way I would like to see cloaking work anyway.

I have to say i disagree with you to a degree



Right now beam teach is combined with defense for regular bullet making you research it. Later to be separated and then again later to be combined.

So right now it is the way the game is played, sure you don't have to build beam, but you would be smart to have defense against your kinetics neighbor.

But I agree that adding a tech that just will disappear after some turns maybe is't the best way.

The point is making use of scouts later in the game, as many of the things that should be made to use later in the game (don't know how many times I said this) smaller ships for example.

Brazilian_Joe wrote:
I disagree. I think there is value to cloaking in gathering intelligence.

With cloaking (my interpretation of how its mechanics should work) one can bypass a blockade and explore further without having to retreat under fire.

Or stay and monitor a system which would be to far from your planet sensors to catch.

You can pick and choose targets if you are planning a military offensive.

Establish contact other empires behind a neighbor in a choke point.

Or choose and monitor targets to strike through warp space bypassing lanes once you have the tech.



There is plenty of use for cloaking in Endless Space and 4x4 in general.

I disagree, and here is why:



If you implement this for scouts, then it is needed to implement an anti-cloaked scout ship / module as well (having something, be it a unit or mechanic, with no counters, doesn't make for a balanced game). While you have a point that you want to scout enemy territory to see their fleets and systems, I also have a point that I want to prevent this for the same reason, so that you can't find out what fleets I am building, how I develop my systems, where are my fleets stationed etc. So we end in a null point again with nothing gained, as everyone will build cloaked scouts and anti cloaked scouts units without having an option about it (you have to do it or you are at disadvantage).



You can establish a contact once you researched warp tech as you can just ctrl+rightclick on the destination star system to travel there ignoring the stuff in the way. (of course you need to have a vision of the targeted destination which is achieved via early scouting).



To have a successful and fun experience, the player needs to have options (meaningful ones mind you). I can do A or B or C depending on my play style and have success with it. When you are forced to do A because everyone does A and if you don't do A you are at a disadvantage, it's something forced, you have no choice but to do that step. Is just the way the tech tree is layered. All techs have an use, but some are better fit for specific paths. I can choose to completely ignore for example beam weapons, and focus on missiles or kinetics. I don't HAVE to have beam tech to be in the game vs rest of players. But cloaked scouts would become mandatory, as well with their counter units.



Same with space stations. They worked in GalCiv because of the way the map / systems / resources etc were developed. They made sense (even if in my opinion they weren't a good addition and became a necessity). But here in ES where would you put them? All the resources are system based, FIDS / strategic / luxuries / temples / wonders etc. Just because some things worked in other games, doesn't mean they will actually add something good or work in ES - IMHO.

I have never felt the need for cloaking or eve scouting with ships in ES. The detection radius on most systems + hacking on a hero and other things means im never really struggling to find out what an opponent is doing. This is nothing like a RTS where the fog of war would truly hide an enemy.

Cloaking or possibly scout probes.



Just anything to maintain outgoing intelligence missions without exposing a ship and your people to a suicide run.

Cloaking technology for scout ships is a good idea, since current scouts are utterly useless after you explore all star systems. But the appropriate technology should be part of future(if there will be any of course) espionage/intelligence tech tree and not warfare.

Anelyn wrote:
The whole cloaking thing won't help you a bit, since most occupied systems are guarded by fleets of some sort. So yeah you would get to the system cloaked, and they can't see you to attack you, but you can't leave either. The mechanic is fine as it is, you don't need invisible scouts to explore unharmed, you need to make open border treaties or declare war (or warp your way around other player controlled systems).



Cloaking is bad and unneeded - doesn't add anything in a 4x4 game like endless space. If it was a RTS like Homeworld series, i could see it viable tech, provided counters of same tech value were implemented.

I disagree. I think there is value to cloaking in gathering intelligence.

With cloaking (my interpretation of how its mechanics should work) one can bypass a blockade and explore further without having to retreat under fire.

Or stay and monitor a system which would be to far from your planet sensors to catch.

You can pick and choose targets if you are planning a military offensive.

Establish contact other empires behind a neighbor in a choke point.

Or choose and monitor targets to strike through warp space bypassing lanes once you have the tech.



There is plenty of use for cloaking in Endless Space and 4x4 in general.

The whole cloaking thing won't help you a bit, since most occupied systems are guarded by fleets of some sort. So yeah you would get to the system cloaked, and they can't see you to attack you, but you can't leave either. The mechanic is fine as it is, you don't need invisible scouts to explore unharmed, you need to make open border treaties or declare war (or warp your way around other player controlled systems).



Cloaking is bad and unneeded - doesn't add anything in a 4x4 game like endless space. If it was a RTS like Homeworld series, i could see it viable tech, provided counters of same tech value were implemented.

Hey guys,



A friend and I have been talking about random ideas for the game, and we agreed heavily on this one idea: cloaking tech that would allow your scout ship to pass through a blockade (with counter tech research-able, ofcourse)



Idea:



Add a warfare tech that gives you the option to add a cloaking module to your ship (to add this, your ship should already have a sight upgrade and speed upgrade to prove it is a scout (limit weapons? example: You have 3 missiles and 2 kinetics? You're not a scout, sorry! *warship stamp*))



Counter ability:



There is already a tech ingame that lets you spy on fleets in your star system. You could just add cloak detection to it to intercept it and get the normal choices and blocking.



Extra idea: a 60K research tech to add detection modules to your ships?





We feel this makes the scout class ship less obsolete in later stages of the game. Especially those in which you are at war with ceveral civs that block your entry to their system. Logical for large war fleets, illogical for small scout ships that can pass undetected (and are relatively unable to take over a system or destroy a fleet)

To some degree, maybe not so much cloaking as being able to launch probes at enemy systems(expensive probes). Maybe some form of stealth that allows you to implant a corvette or something to disrupt enemy trade in a system until it is spotted.

I'd prefer some kind of deployable probe. Sometimes I scout a system and it's definitely one I want to colonize later, so I want to keep an eye on it. But I don't want to sacrifice a scout ship just for that.

Tardar sauce is a girl cat.

He lost war because of cloaked scout.

Cloaking system, stealth system, avoidance and evade tactics - some way to make scouts into scouts would be awesome.

This... is a great idea. Scouts would become much more useful for more of the game. Maybe, if it is done right and balanced enough, it could be useful for most of the game.

The idea of cloaked ships is extremely interesting. Of course,

Cloak technology - Detect technology,

separated by several tech levels.



So that in the beginning you use normal scout, then you use cloaked scout, then in late game it becomes detectable again.



The question of few weapons can be solved by making cloak module really heavy.

Researching Cloak Module? Aye, I like that.

It shouldn't be just some sort of invisibility cloak, though. I'd say a Cloak mod should decrease the probability of being detected by a certain percentage.



To make it more interesting: How about a sabotage mod that goes with it? Sending cloaked scouts into enemy system to sabotage their ship production (lower HP)?

We have stealth tech in the 21st century, so why not cloaks in the 31st? This makes pretty good sense; but at the same time if it were added, I think there should be a system improvement that could detect them, not just a ship module.

I find the way scouts work at the moment to not make any sense whatsoever. Scout ships letting themselves be forced into confrontations with entire fleets and then being just as lame at withdrawing from and avoiding engagements as other regular ships etc bla bla utterly defeats the logic and purpose of reconnaissance... the way scouts are implemented and don't differ at all from other ships (module difference etc doesn't actually count) is simply silly.

I would rather modify scout modules to allow ships to go on stealth missions to reveal nearby enemy systems, and the later return.