We are disscussing this now since month in the Save the Sowers Thread it is time that it gets its own pool.



Tolerant Trait is just worthless atm and its high costs are damaging the Sowers and the underpowered Harmony too.



Tolerant is 15/30 points to colonize planets without tech. 50%/25% FIDS penalty, 8%/4% Growth Penalty (for Harmony).



It's considerably overpriced.



-Thx to Autocthon

Can we get some info for the people who aren't familiar with the costs and what the trait does?



Also, I feel like the cost of the trait is really dependant on the effect, so if the effect is staying then I'll be voting that it costs too much.

Tolerant is 15/30 points to colonize planets without tech. 50%/25% FIDS penalty, 8%/4% Growth Penalty (for Harmony).



It's considerably overpriced.

This trait could be worth the cost it it lowered or removed disapproval penalties generated by planets such as -50% at first tier and -75% second. This would allow it to scale into later into the game as well. However, lower disapproval from planets would not benefit the harmony, so maybe just a cheaper version for them.



The way things currently stand this trait is very over priced.

Tolerant is priced based on the fact that it's available to Sowers. And Sowers gain a disproportionate bonus from it on low tier worlds. And yet it still manages to be heavily overpriced, though in all honesty the recent changes to traits on beta make it worse, and half the problem of the sowers is they have negative traits and a massively reduces trait total compared to every other faction.



So there are three options.



1) Lower the cost, 10/20 would be the right price point due to the heavy penalty for for colonizing unteched planets.

2) Lower the penalty to 50%/0%, at 15 points the ability to colonize any planet at a 50% FIDS penalty isn't a bad deal strategically, and at 30 points total colonization tech is a great deal.



Obviously the second option is a higher power option, however with incoming changes to the trait system giving up a trait slot for Tolerant becomes a very significant strategic choice. And finally



3) Remove Tolerant entirely, grant special colonization tech on a faction specific basis. Sowers would have Tolerant for "free" while Harmony should get a slightly modified version as it fits their "biology."



This is the most sensible solution as even at high powers Tolerant is a trait only useful in the early game relative to other traits, and is a very niche trait being effective on only three affinities (Sowers/Harmony/Cravers) and situational at that.

Autocthon wrote:
Tolerant is priced based on the fact that it's available to Sowers. And Sowers gain a disproportionate bonus from it on low tier worlds. And yet it still manages to be heavily overpriced, though in all honesty the recent changes to traits on beta make it worse, and half the problem of the sowers is they have negative traits and a massively reduces trait total compared to every other faction.



So there are three options.



1) Lower the cost, 10/20 would be the right price point due to the heavy penalty for for colonizing unteched planets.

2) Lower the penalty to 50%/0%, at 15 points the ability to colonize any planet at a 50% FIDS penalty isn't a bad deal strategically, and at 30 points total colonization tech is a great deal.



Obviously the second option is a higher power option, however with incoming changes to the trait system giving up a trait slot for Tolerant becomes a very significant strategic choice. And finally



3) Remove Tolerant entirely, grant special colonization tech on a faction specific basis. Sowers would have Tolerant for "free" while Harmony should get a slightly modified version as it fits their "biology."



This is the most sensible solution as even at high powers Tolerant is a trait only useful in the early game relative to other traits, and is a very niche trait being effective on only three affinities (Sowers/Harmony/Cravers) and situational at that.

i can confirm and approve every single word of that.



come on Devs face the facts.

Autocthon wrote:
This is the most sensible solution as even at high powers Tolerant is a trait only useful in the early game relative to other traits, and is a very niche trait being effective on only three affinities (Sowers/Harmony/Cravers) and situational at that.

Just one counter point. Value of traits should not be down-rated based on niche-ness. If you did that, you are essentially beefing up the few races that full into that niche. And if you going to do that you should just beef up the race in question. So the question that needs to be addressed here is do you want to beef up Tolerant because Sower isn't up to your expectation or are you beefing up Tolerant because Tolerant isn't up to your expectations.







I personally find Tolerant quite useful as a way to expand quickly early. But what really limits the utility of tolerant is how quickly overcolonization effects set in with each new system. It does, however, means that you can focus on OC malus reduction tech instead of colonization tech on the expansion tree.

Antera wrote:
Just one counter point. Value of traits should not be down-rated based on niche-ness. If you did that, you are essentially beefing up the few races that full into that niche. And if you going to do that you should just beef up the race in question. So the question that needs to be addressed here is do you want to beef up Tolerant because Sower isn't up to your expectation or are you beefing up Tolerant because Tolerant isn't up to your expectations.

To put it in perspective; Tolerant is bad on the only affinities it's really useful for. That's how bad it is.



It's not "Buff tolerant because Sowers needs a buff" it's "Buff Tolerant because it's really really bad even when it should be good"

I personally find Tolerant quite useful as a way to expand quickly early. But what really limits the utility of tolerant is how quickly overcolonization effects set in with each new system. It does, however, means that you can focus on OC malus reduction tech instead of colonization tech on the expansion tree.

The malus reduction tech requires getting colonizaton tech in the first place.

If nothing else, look at it this way 30 points is about half of customization points. Half your points for a trait that only effects early to maybe mid game. Once you have the colonization techs its useless. 36% fleet weapon damage for 15 or cloning for 25 things are generally more useful and useful at every stage of the game.



30 points for a tech that becomes worthless.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have traits that start out strong and then become worthless (I'm currently running a build with Merchants 2, Diplomats 2 and Symbiosis 2, which has finally become worthless when everyone realised how insanely overpowered it was and went to war with me) as long as the benefit is strong enough to cope with losing it later.



Tolerant really doesn't give you a benefit that you can cope with losing later. It's massive amounts of points for a marginal benefit that's mostly wiped out by happiness costs. Completely ignoring the Sowers, if players can't see any plausible custom build that includes Tolerant, then it's either too weak a benefit or far too expensive.

Beta 2 - 1.1.15



Added 2 new effects for the tolerant trait:

> AS SOWER -25/50% $(Approval) LOSS FROM PLANET UNTIL REQUIRED TECH KNOWN

> -50% $(Approval) LOSS FROM PLANET ONCE REQUIRED TECH KNOWN





Example (By Dev Meedoc)



If you are Sowers, with Tolerant 1 and you colonise a Gas Giant, you will have -15 approval instead of -20 approval

If you are Sowers, with Tolerant 2 and you colonise a Gas Giant, you will have -10 approval instead of -20 approval



If you are another faction, you'll benefit from the -50% approval once you've researched the related technology. For instance, I colonise a Gas Giant as a Terran with tolerant: I suffer -20 approval but once I've researched the technology to colonise Gas Giant, I'll only suffer -10 approval.







Disscuss!

what are u thinking about that?



for me?

i think that is a progression and i am happy with that change very happy indeed. Maybe i would make it rather (15/30) instead of (20/30) in terms of costs but i am still happy.

The cost is still a little bit high still, however it is far more worth while:

- This means the trait has far more early game potential. Still have the expansion disapproval to stop you in your tracks and a -50 only goes so far.

- It now scales into the late game now- somewhat. Once terraforming hits does not do much for must races that will be using T1 or T2(sowers and their tundra) planets, very useful on T5 planets not much else. The heavy specialization of T5s makes them questionable for use. That is different topic...



Thanks for listening developers!

I think the biggest problem of tolerant is that it is of vital importance for some races (Sowers, Harmony) and almost useless for everyone else.



The ability to colonize whatever you want is certainly imperative to fully utilize the Sower affinity. But they receive a lot of flexibility from it.

If you ever found a low-gravity lava or methan planet with your starting colony ship, you know what I am talking about. If you ever managed to lock a vital travel hub down with an early colony, you know what I mean.



To make things even more complicated, this ability has also received a significant happiness boost with the recent changes. If you colonize a single gas giant or asteroid belt with Tolerant II, it is equal to a +10 happiness bonus (which rivals Optimistic I). Lava still gets a +7.5 bonus and +5 from arctic is also quite neat - and I am not even sure how that new ability behaves with negative anomalies. Imagine you could half the penalites from all these nasty -10 to -20 thingies in the early game!



So once you have colonized several planets in a system during the mid game this trait is certainly as powerful as Optimistic I for the Sowers - they basicially get 15 points included for FREE.

So, well... The price is certainly okay for the Sowers, but yes, everyone else is ripped of by this.



And I would agree that Tolerant I is also overpriced for everyone. The -50% penalty is so big that it renders the ability almost useless and you still spend 20 points on that.

Just a follow up, tolerant does not affect anomaly approval. Which is not a bad thing because if it did affect anomaly approval the positive approval anomaly would become less useful.