To Glass Cannon or Not to Glass Cannon - Endless Space

To Glass Cannon or Not to Glass Cannon

Copied to clipboard!

Anosogos

Newcomer

Anosogos

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 5, 2014, 6:14:11 PM

I have not done any of the math. All I know is my glass cannon fleets get decimated no matter what their weapon load-out unless they have shield ships with them.

I find that the most effective fleets are mixed ships of varying capabilities. They just seem to be a lot more survivable no matter what their specific designs are.

0badgesSend private message

thuvian

Newcomer

thuvian

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 5, 2014, 7:56:04 PM

Glass Cannon ships aren't meant to survive, they are meant to take kill other ships as cheaply as possible.

Ail is working on a AI mod that only changes the types of ships the AI builds (and hopefully their targeting preferences). It does not change their powers or give them any bonuses. I invite you to try it out.

0badgesSend private message

Oosh

Newcomer

Oosh

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 6, 2014, 12:46:36 AM

thuvian wrote:
Glass Cannon ships aren't meant to survive, they are meant to take kill other ships as cheaply as possible.

Exactly, every

smiley: industry

worth of ship(s) a Glass Cannon destroys above its cost before biting the dust (pardon the pun) itself is a win.

Throw in a Hero with "Emergency Shelters" and you can preserve your GC's to heal up before re-entering the fray. Unless it's countered of course.

0badgesSend private message

Anosogos

Newcomer

Anosogos

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 6, 2014, 11:45:14 PM

When I say decimated I mean annihilated.

I don't consider "they still have 3 fleets blockading my system after I sent 4 fleets in" a win, no matter how much of a dent I put in them. Having a well rounded fleet that can consistently annihilate other fleets makes victories quicker. That's my priority so I can get my resources flow back. Maybe I just build ships wrong.

Also, I really only play against AI. Perhaps the high-level vagueries of multiplayer strategy are lost on me.

0badgesSend private message

Oosh

Newcomer

Oosh

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 7, 2014, 12:39:13 AM

In general my Glass Cannons consist of the basic ship with 1 Armour module and all the rest of the tonnage in to Long Range Kinetics.

If I get in a scrap early game I go 100% LR Kinetics

I play my cards and firing pattern to completely destroy as many enemy ships as early as possible.

It's better to kill a ship early, than maim it and allow it to fire back, that's why I go kinetics coz they get 4 volleys per round.

I concentrate my military research on upgrading kinetics, armour, and increasing fleet size.

Incidentally, I too only play against the AI.

0badgesSend private message

thuvian

Newcomer

thuvian

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 7, 2014, 1:13:42 AM

Anosognos wrote:
When I say decimated I mean annihilated.

I don't consider "they still have 3 fleets blockading my system after I sent 4 fleets in" a win, no matter how much of a dent I put in them. Having a well rounded fleet that can consistently annihilate other fleets makes victories quicker. That's my priority so I can get my resources flow back. Maybe I just build ships wrong.

Also, I really only play against AI. Perhaps the high-level vagueries of multiplayer strategy are lost on me.

If you want to post a save game, we can take a look at make some suggestions you might like.

0badgesSend private message

VIPAnwyl

Chameleon

.

VIPAnwyl

Chameleon

11 years ago

Jan 10, 2014, 10:12:02 PM

heres a tip on designing glass cannons to survive. you will need to equip all of your glass cannon ships with some sort of invasion module, then you will need three other ships with no invasion but with pure defense. then just use protective formation. it won't save all of your ships but it should help against getting annihilated.

0badgesSend private message

thuvian

Newcomer

thuvian

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jan 11, 2014, 10:14:30 PM

Just sort by DEFENSIVE FORMATION which arranges ships by defense to achieve the same effect without redesigning your ships.
Invasion Modules go against the glass cannon principle, by adding cost and weight that do not contribute to ship efficiency.
This only works if the AI uses Guillotine or Nose Breaker.

0badgesSend private message

thuvian

Newcomer

thuvian

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 29, 2013, 4:27:38 AM

Alternative Code Simulators would require knowing the combat mechanics.

It would also need to be confirmed that the end result would actually happen the way it is simulated to happen.

0badgesSend private message

VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

I know nothing. To learn more, come visit us @ eXplorminate.net

VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 11:54:25 AM

From a RP perspective, I do not "glass cannon" my fleets. From game play perspective, I do not MP, so it's not an issue for me. I accept it as an A.I. tactic. That said, you bring up some interesting points and I generally agree with you. There is a balance issue that Amplitude hasn't been able to hit yet and our constant irregular feedback has caused the various imbalances that occur with each patch and update.

0badgesSend private message

Vicarious

Newcomer

Vicarious

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 12:43:30 PM

Another very good and useful thread by thuvian.

smiley: approval

Nasarog wrote:
From a RP perspective, I do not "glass cannon" my fleets.

Me too. I think if players are forced to use completely suicidal ships on higher difficulty levels, it means that something is really wrong with the combat system. I would also support the decision to eliminate "Emergency shelter" hero ability from the game.

0badgesSend private message

VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

I know nothing. To learn more, come visit us @ eXplorminate.net

VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 1:15:23 PM

Vicarious wrote:
Another very good and useful thread by thuvian.

Me too. I think if players are forced to use completely suicidal ships on higher difficulty levels, it means that something is really wrong with the combat system. I would also support the decision to eliminate "Emergency shelter" hero ability from the game.

Yea, the heroes need a massive overhaul to balance out the game. It would be nice if they give us a bunch of G2G choices on how to fix heroes. No matter what, not everyone will be happy with the fix/changes, but I think that's the case no matter what.

0badgesSend private message

Thoto79

Old Timer

Thoto79

Old Timer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 2:05:10 PM

Interesting post. I have in the latest games with Harmony only used Destroyers fully loaded with all three weapons plus fighter/bomber modules. Pretty effective.

You say:

"Also, you'd want Medium or Short Range weapons to counter the Glass Cannons, but again we'll ignore that."

Could you explain why you dont want to use long range in this situation?

0badgesSend private message

Antera

Newcomer

Antera

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 4:05:21 PM

$82 destroyers, hahahaha, ahem

Someone could correct me if I'm wrong but the new armor module no longer multiply health multiplicative. Doesn't change any conclusions just thought I point it out.

I agree that the devs could develop better mathematical models to do their game balancing. There certainly does not seem to be a lack of fans who could develop these models for them. But let's not discount gameplay experience either. Math is a powerful tool but there is no mathematical model for human players.

0badgesSend private message

thuvian

Newcomer

thuvian

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 9:45:51 PM

Q: Why are Short or Medium Range medium range weapons the counter to Glass Cannons?

A: It's all about killing them faster than they can kill you. Long Range weapons launch 1 salvo per Range Phase, which means you are limited to killing 3 ships per combat. Short Range weapons fire 4 times, which means you can kill 12 ships per combat. Medium range weapons fire 2 times, which means you can kill 6 ships. You can also kill additional ships with bombers/fighters, but as it stands it seems like such a waste to use the special modules to put a fighter/bomber on a dreadnaught.

Q: Armor is additive now?

A: Rather than answer. I'm going to draw pictures.

Here is the EHP for the level 1 & 6 Armor modules for 0 to 20 defense modules with a power of 100 using a Hull Weakness of 100.

Armor 6: 175% HP 30% defense

Armor 1: 50% HP 5% defense

S: The devs have the short end of the stick.

R: Yes. I think they are getting schizophrenic instructions on what to do. Too many people demanding too many things, but since none of those people want the same end result, you get a Frankenstein like end state and then everyone blames the devs for screwing it up.

S: G2G votes are the way to go.

R: I don't think that's the answer to everyone. I think we need to come up with several independent and interesting combat systems and then choose one of those. Otherwise you risk the Lethal Modder problem, on the surface it sounds fine, +100 damage, but then we find out that someone else added shots per salvo to the equation, and suddenly we are doing 5,000% damage.

S: I don't use Glass Cannons for Role Play Reasons.

R: That's a valid perspective. Many cultures find the idea of abandoning soldiers to their deaths abhorrent, even if it would save lives in the long run. I would be curious in researching situations where big ships were the most efficient means of defense and then use that as the basis for combat mechanics. The thing that jumps to mind is the rise of the Battleship during WWI or dreadnaught use in Sword of the Stars. If someone(s) wants to explore this and write up some summaries for this and other situations, that may prove useful for designing an interesting combat system.

0badgesSend private message

Ail

VIP

Ail

VIP

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 10:35:55 PM

I'd love if the Devs would put this kind of effort into their balancing attempts.

It looks like aimless experiments and not like following a set design-goal.

Before deciding on numbers you need to have a result in mind and adjust your numbers accordingly to reach it.

Pulling out numbers from your hat and then looking at what happens is not the way to do it.

If for example, you'd want your ships to barely be able to destroy an opponents ship of the same CP over the course of a battle, you'd adjust the damage to be something like 500 over all phases.

If you want to increase the number of required ships to destroy you ship over the course of a combat by 1 per 15% tonnage spent on defense-modules, you can rearrange your equation and get the exact amount of Defense needed to do that.

So if you aren't able to explain what exactly the thought-process behind those numbers is, I would be inclined to think, that they are the result of some random trial-and-error-technique.

0badgesSend private message

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 10:49:07 PM

Ail wrote:
I'd love if the Devs would put this kind of effort into their balancing attempts.

It looks like aimless experiments and not like following a set design-goal.

Before deciding on numbers you need to have a result in mind and adjust your numbers accordingly to reach it.

Pulling out numbers from your hat and then looking at what happens is not the way to do it.

If for example, you'd want your ships to barely be able to destroy an opponents ship of the same CP over the course of a battle, you'd adjust the damage to be something like 500 over all phases.

If you want to increase the number of required ships to destroy you ship over the course of a combat by 1 per 15% tonnage spent on defense-modules, you can rearrange your equation and get the exact amount of Defense needed to do that.

So if you aren't able to explain what exactly the thought-process behind those numbers is, I would be inclined to think, that they are the result of some random trial-and-error-technique.

And that's why I'd like a combat simulator. But the petition for that was done a year ago and never really thought about, any further.

Because with something like that, you could easily do a simulation of any possible battle within, let's say, 5 minutes, looking for overpowered states. No idea if anything like that exists or is ever planned to be programmed. It would be so useful for balancing.

0badgesSend private message

VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

I know nothing. To learn more, come visit us @ eXplorminate.net

VIPNasarog

Analyzer Officer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 11:00:34 PM

Nos - Expansion idea right there.

Ail - Absolutely.

thuv - I agree with you.

0badgesSend private message

thuvian

Newcomer

thuvian

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 11:14:03 PM

We could jurry-rig a combat simulator, I've got something like that setup for myself now. (It's a save game of a Harmony game with infinite production in a big galaxy with my personal WIP mod.)

To get something fairly function we'd need:

A custom galaxy with 1 star per Empire all connected to a single center star. (I don't know how)
A mod to the Empires to make them produce infinite (or just a bunch of) FIDS each turn. (I have this already)
A mod to the Empires to remove strategic resource requirements. (I know how to do this)
A mod to turn off the AI building and fleet movements ( I really don't know how to do this)

To "run" the simulator.

[list=1]

Start or load a game with this mod.

Pick the first Empire that you want to run a simulation with.

Design the Ships for that Empire and set the empire to build them.

Also design and build some random trash ships.

End Turn.

Create 1 fleet with your desired skirmish side.

Create several other fleets with the random trash fleets.

Send the fleet of interest to the center.

Save & Quit.

Edit your save file to remove your SteamID.

Restart ES and load your game.

Choose the Empire for the other side of the combat.

Design the Ships for that Empire and set the empire to build them.

Also design and build some random trash ships.

End Turn.

Create 1 fleet with your desired skirmish side.

Create several other fleets with the random trash fleets.

Send the fleet of interest to the center.

Send the random trash fleets to the opponent Empire's homeworld.

Save the game.

Run the combat of interest.

Load game.

Run 1 trash fleet combat to reset our place in the RandomSeed.

Run the combat of interest.

Repeat as necessary.

[/list]

Once the mod is setup, it wouldn't take much to actually run the tests. The majority of the time would be starting up ES so many times.

0badgesSend private message

Scrangos

Newcomer

Scrangos

Newcomer

11 years ago

Jul 28, 2013, 11:32:50 PM

Good post. Game of economic chicken.. i like the term

0badgesSend private message

?

Click here to login

Reply

Comment

Characters : 0

0badgesSend private message

PostCancel