Nosferatiel wrote:
@RobM: I'll undo it, if you really want me to, but I believe he's right. We need more alliterations.

No, that's fine (I did try, but couldn't work out where to change it!).

Shyrka wrote:
I was telling RobM he should have called it "Help the Harmony". I reckon "Save the Sowers" was successful due to the pleasant alliteration.

Alliterations give your movement a nice ring to them, and that's precisely why I chose the word 'Save'



However, to give my honest take on the matter, the Harmony have, in some ways, a similar problem to what the sowers had. Although, in some ways, the problems are quite different.



I, personally, view their main problem as the fact that they can't survive the early game the majority of the time. Unlike the Sowers, who had the same problem, the Harmony are capable of taking flight and becoming a faction to be reckoned with IF they survive the early game.



If then, my conclusion is so: (based on my observations in-game) Are the Harmony Under powered? No. Are they a horribly un-balanced faction? Yes.

Shyrka wrote:
I was telling RobM he should have called it "Help the Harmony". I reckon "Save the Sowers" was successful due to the pleasant alliteration.

Good idea and actually, your wish be my order.

@RobM: I'll undo it, if you really want me to, but I believe he's right. We need more alliterations.

Sovereign wrote:
We can copy paste the Save the Sowers thread...and change the Word Sowers into Harmony.

I was telling RobM he should have called it "Help the Harmony". I reckon "Save the Sowers" was successful due to the pleasant alliteration.

We can copy paste the Save the Sowers thread...and change the Word Sowers into Harmony.



harmony are the new Sowers in my eyes (after we managed that they were saved more or less)



the reasons are quite obviously and RobM and some other pointed them already out.





In MP there is only one valuable Build with the harmony (picking tolerant trait) and even this build is a joke when it comes to fight the other races.



if you thinking about to start a new movement or something like that to save the harmony i say this is justified and i would help you as good as i can.

SteveH wrote:
Meh as I said in the pub, an early flat buff should sort them, an extra +1 on both the science building and the food building per pop covers their early problems, either that or you need to somehow have an early mitigation of the Disharmony.



Turning off the dust from trade routes causing Disharmony would also be a start, you could also look at having a building that has -1 dust per pop when built (though that may hurt you later use of personal shielding, though that could just be mitigated by deleting the building) Putting that at one of the starting tech points would be very beneficial (could replace the flat +8 dust building).

They need something more than a simple +1 here or there. They need something that's vaguely comparable to the flat buffs to FIDS that admin/corporate heroes can provide otherwise they will always be behind the curve. The disharmony penalty and the FI penalty from dust already gimp their expansion severely and the lack of buyout only further compounds their glacial expansion pace.

I agree pretty much 100% with RobM here. When Disharmony came out I leapt on the chance to play a new race with quite radically different mechanics. I tried for almost a week of fairly intensive play (it's amazing what have a four-day-old baby asleep on your lap does to your determination not to move!) I gave up in disgust. I'd tried everything I could think of: endless custom builds to give me flat buffs; pushing the science/food slider back and forth in wild swings; micro'ing the slider each turn, etc. Nothing worked.



I've not gone back to them since. I know there have been a few changes since then but they don't seem to have had any meaningful effect. I know The Harmony are supposed to be a slow-burning, late-blooming race but usually by turn 50 they have a score of half, or less, of any other race. Even Endless AI can't make them work. Generally, they're just easy pickings: a free spiral arm for you to expand into at your leisure. Sure, they can be slower than some races but they need to be at least vaguely competitive.

Meh as I said in the pub, an early flat buff should sort them, an extra +1 on both the science building and the food building per pop covers their early problems, either that or you need to somehow have an early mitigation of the Disharmony.



Turning off the dust from trade routes causing Disharmony would also be a start, you could also look at having a building that has -1 dust per pop when built (though that may hurt you later use of personal shielding, though that could just be mitigated by deleting the building) Putting that at one of the starting tech points would be very beneficial (could replace the flat +8 dust building).

If you're just bringing up a possibility, that's great. It's just that you weren't speaking about it as if it were just a possibility.





Here's why it is a stretch of imagination.



From the description of the Void Stone, the stone is anti-matter contained in a gravitation field. Nowhere in the game did it ever say the Harmony was looking for anti-matter or that they believe the core is a core of anti-matter. Once again, if you want to form that link that's fine. But whenever you are making a connection not explicitly stated, it is a stretch of imagination. That's how the phrase is defined.



Look, we can argue about story element all day, but my main point is that Harmony is perfectly fix-able without adding a new story element.



Speaking strictly for myself here, I would rather boosts be made to things that I'm already going to do as a Harmony player than be given new things that I now must do to make myself competitive.

relmor wrote:






I'm writing because I disagree with prior analysis regarding the Harmony's capability mid to late game. On my sixth game I managed to push through all of the early game obstacles, and had obtained a reasonably sized empire with some of the best systems in the galaxy. My power rank was 5 (of 8), but I assume that relates my FIS to their FIDS, so my # would always be 25% less. In reality, I was more like #2-3. Here's what happened: everyone declared war on me, and with leadership from their level 10-20 heroes my fleets were no match for them.

1) The players' score is not just measured on FIDS (whether harmony or not) So the score you didn't have due to dust was most likely not -25%, and if you were reducing disharmony, the other FIS probably made up for it. (Unless you were plainly talking about your FIS score which isn't shown with the other players' in-game)



2) Disharmony has a bug where if the AI has no other wars, they will attack the human player. It happens in all my games, so I am guessing this is not Harmony specific.



Other than that your points are sound. I often use bribes as well lol

First, let me preface my comments by saying that I have been enjoying Endless Space since its release and have recommended it to a number of my friends who enjoy the 4x genre. With 100s of hours into the game I've been able to win with every race on 'hard' - even the ones I would consider proportionally underpowered (I'm looking at you Hissho). Actually, I favor crowded planets and the end game, as opposed to zerg-optimized races. With all of that said, I really thought I was going to enjoy playing the Harmony, even though it was clear from other games I had played since Disharmony's release that the AI was in no way up to playing them.



Wow, was I wrong. I won't restate what has been written before, except to say that I agree with the analysis above and that the Harmony are very poorly balanced in terms of their affinity relative to every other race in the game. My first attempt on 'hard' was a crushing defeat, but I told myself "you're still learning, try again". Next loss I blamed on the Galaxy set up (I play with a highly randomized galaxy). I switched down to 'Normal', and got crushed again in the next two attempts, and by this time I was really on to what the Harmony were all about: selectively choosing between tech and food, overproducing food early to outgrow your opponents, maxing your small systems early and using them as build sites for your ships, etc. etc.



I'm writing because I disagree with prior analysis regarding the Harmony's capability mid to late game. On my sixth game I managed to push through all of the early game obstacles, and had obtained a reasonably sized empire with some of the best systems in the galaxy. My power rank was 5 (of 8), but I assume that relates my FIS to their FIDS, so my # would always be 25% less. In reality, I was more like #2-3. Here's what happened: everyone declared war on me, and with leadership from their level 10-20 heroes my fleets were no match for them.



Here's something I have not heard mentioned before. With every other race, I routinely use "Dust - Flat Fee" as a key part of my diplomacy. Want to put off a war? Offer a bribe. Want to make new friends? Offer a bribe. Want to buy technologies from more advanced races? Offer them dust in trade. The Harmony cannot participate in diplomacy as effectively as others, and ultimately - even though I was looking to be ascendant on turn 150, my empire was in ruins by turn 200. (Note: I play on Slow)



So please add that to the significant disadvantages currently imposed on the Harmony.

general_bulgarvski wrote:
RobM, you should play with another mentality as Harmony.

When your systems are growing you should not build ships on them unless in extreme situations, so that you may obtain the +50% FIS bonuses quickly.

And it is true that the early game is kind of harsh due to disharmomy, but you must be patient untill you can purify your systems. Once you purify all your systems, you'll get no more disharmony and a science and food bonus that in the long run can even your science with the others factions sciences.

Then, the Harmony is unstoppable.

This is somewhat close to my strategy for the Harmony.

My Strategy:



1) Exploit Food on all systems

2) Research the first Food Exploitation Tech after finishing N-WAY Fusion plants

3) Slide the "Tax" (Ik, its called something different) Most, if not all the way, to the food side. These three steps can generate some substantial Growth.

4) Research Isolation shields to help you faltering

5) Wait until your systems are maxed in opulation:

6) Churn out ships. (Colony ships should have already been created when the need arose)

7) Once you have a defense force, pursue getting the prerequisites for Purification.

8) Purify and steamroll (If you aren't dead.)



And with this strategy, I would say that in my experience, they are balanced with all factions on "Normal"



However, they are by NO means a viable AI opponent on any difficulty.

general_bulgarvski wrote:
When your systems are growing you should not build ships on them unless in extreme situations, so that you may obtain the +50% FIS bonuses quickly. And it is true that the early game is kind of harsh due to disharmomy, but you must be patient untill you can purify your systems.

Oh, I know they require a slightly different playstyle, but your first "don't build ships" suggestion leaves you vulnerable to being killed by everyone else in the game (as they know if they attack you early it'll kill your growth rate as you're forced to build ships to defend, meaning you reach the point where you're stronger than they are much, much later... assuming you don't just die as your tech is behind theirs).



And disharmony is just insane - everyone else gets expansion disapproval, but they get several strategies to reduce the penalty (happiness buildings, expansion disapproval reductions, increased influence bubbles, adjustments to tax slider) whereas the Harmony only has the disharmony reduction techs at the bottom of the tree until they reach purify system.



It's not a case of "you need to play them differently", it's a case of "well, you can play them differently like they're supposed to be played and you'll still lose to every other player out there".

RobM, you should play with another mentality as Harmony.

When your systems are growing you should not build ships on them unless in extreme situations, so that you may obtain the +50% FIS bonuses quickly.

And it is true that the early game is kind of harsh due to disharmomy, but you must be patient untill you can purify your systems. Once you purify all your systems, you'll get no more disharmony and a science and food bonus that in the long run can even your science with the others factions sciences.

Then, the Harmony is unstoppable.

Hmm Max really reminds me of colonel Sanders when you put him in a less ornate suit.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
... I just stated a logical path with which the lore could be altered to accommodate such a development...

Antera wrote:
Here's why it is a stretch of imagination...

I like the way you think about the lore, S_H and Antera; reading it and extrapolating ideas. Please keep it up -- good ideas are always welcome.

Perhaps even made from the same phenomenon, and out of the same molecular structure.

CUSO4 Ponders: VOID STONES IS PEOPLE!!!!



So what about the other options?

Antera wrote:
If you're just bringing up a possibility, that's great. It's just that you weren't speaking about it as if it were just a possibility.

I am sorry that my words mislead you. I will choose them more carefully in the future.

Yes, this is a deliberate callback to the Save The Sowers campaign, but that's finally been rewarded with developer response and (in my opinion) has succeeded in making them playable and reasonably well balanced with other factions.



However, since Disharmony, the game's gained another race that's basically broken - Harmony.



For those who've not played them the Harmony affinity means they produce no dust. In return, they have no upkeep costs, so they can build any building and run an infinite number of ships (in theory). However, because they have no dust, they have no heroes (can't hire a hero if you can't pay them), they can't refit ships (so once you've built it, that's it for the rest of the game), and they can't buyout buildings (so good luck colonising that arctic).



Their tax slider is replaced with a food/science conversion bar. At the midpoint, they produce normal science and normal food. At the 0 point, they produce 200% food and 0% science, and at the 100 point, they produce 200% science and 0% food. In theory, this allows them massive, powerhouse focus on one or the other.



Finally, Harmony have no happiness. They're stuck in Neutral empire wide. This means you can happily take those high happiness penalty planets, or planets with serious negative anomalies and not care. In theory this means you can expand like crazy...



I'll deal with the "in theory"s in a moment... first, lets look at their tech tree. We'll ignore most of the changes to the left hand side; suffice it to say the left hand tree is now three branches - food, CPs/Influence, and diplomacy/trade - with happiness and dust removed, it looks rather bare, but here's where most of your custom techs are.



First, "Silic Soils" replaces the first food building. Instead of being +1 food/pop on T2/T3, it's +1 food/pop everywhere.



Second, "Harmonize Planet", now a tier 3 tech, gives you +50% FIS on planets with full population.



Third, right at the end of the trade-route techs, you get "trade routes produce food instead of dust".



Finally, right at the end of the diplomacy techs, you get "+5% science/industry per alliance" (which is basically the Amoeba bonus without the happiness).



Your other custom techs are in the warfare tree. Firstly you get +5% min/max weapon damage and +5% to ship defences per strategic resource monopoly (or "abundance" as the tech tree's determined to call it).



And finally, at Personal Shielding you get the purify system construction, taking 5 turns to build, removing all dust from a system (but wait, you don't produce dust!) and converting said non-produced dust at a rate of 33% to food and 33% to science. Permanently. Cannot be removed. Cannot be razed or pillaged.



Okay, so where's the problem?



Well, to start with, there's the penalties for all that dust you're not producing. Every system that hasn't been purified produces "Disharmony". Disharmony reduces your FIS output. Equally, for every point of dust you would be producing, the system producing it takes a food and industry penalty.



...so wait, you get hit twice for having dust? Yes, your science only takes the one hit, but food and industry take a double whammy from dust. Good luck with those arids/deserts/gas somethings. Good luck with that redsang. Good luck with that Terran you'd normally want. Good luck with oceans, jungles and tundras who all produce non-negligible dust. Good luck with all those positive anomalies that produce dust. In fact, you wouldn't believe how much dust there is floating around; no wonder the economic victory is so easy! Basically, produce dust, and your growth rate slows to a crawl. Produce dust and you can't build anything.



...oh, and your trade routes produce dust, so you don't actually want trade routes until you've got the "trade routes produce food" tech as it'll only hurt your food/industry income!



Disharmony is slightly easier to understand - don't take more systems. It's basically expansion disapproval for a race who doesn't take happiness penalties. Hence why their expansion disapproval reduction techs have been replaced with disharmony reduction tech.



So. I expand, I lose food, industry and science. I don't expand, I have to take the arid/desert/dust-producing planet (which is all of them), and I only lose food and industry.



But wait, I'm never unhappy. Yeah, but you're never happy either. Everyone else is sitting there with their "Ecstatic" systems that give them a 20% bonus to food and industry. Everyone else is sitting there with their "Fervent" empire giving them a 10% bonus to science. So out of the box you're producing less food/industry/science than an opposing happy empire. Lets ignore the massive bonuses they're getting from Adminstrator and Corporate heroes.



So, behind the curve from the start. That's okay, I'll just pump everything into food and get my full-planet bonus. Except that full-planet bonus requires a 500-production building (that'll be 10+ turns to build), it's the third tech on the left (oh, wait, if I'm pumping everything into food I've got no science), and it requires full pop on planets when you can't control where the AI is going to put the next pop. Good luck colonising in system. Take a pop off one planet to put on an empty one and the AI might decide it'll fill the empty one rather than topping up the one that's one short. Get hit by a "lose 1 pop from 3 planets" event and suddenly you've lost half your FIS income.



That's all right, I'll just limp along until I get to purify system and then I'm a powerhouse. Yeah, good luck getting to that. EVERY ship you build has a -50% growth rate penalty as a construction effect. Fine if you've got a full system, but crippling otherwise. No ship you build can be refit, so good luck adapting to someone who's fielding different fleets, and good luck with those tier 1 defence ships when your opponent gets to tier 2. Your destroyers get massive tonnage reduction to fighters and bombers, but they're basically useless and even if they kill the enemy, the ship they're based on will get taken out from underneath them. Oh, and because you've got less science than everyone else, you're going to get out-teched across the board and killed before you get anywhere close.





So. Yeah, they're broken. Horribly, pointlessly broken. This isn't even a case of "core Harmony are bad, custom Harmony can be made to work"; there's no combination of faction traits than can currently make Harmony work. My personal feeling is that they need a flat buff somewhere, but this post has already gone very long so discussion of solutions will have to continue in the thread...