[Suggestion] Space Combat - Initiative and Manoeuvres

daveybaby

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 13, 2012, 11:06:31 AM

Proposal: In combat, fleets with the highest initiative should be able to attempt manoeuvres which can alter the relative durations of the different combat phases to their advantage.

Bonuses to Initiative

Smaller/faster ships

Smaller fleets (as a proportion of the fleet's max size, i.e. a fleet with 3/7 ships has a higher initiative than one with 7/7 ships.)

Stealth/cloaking tech

Hero bonuses

Being the defender (if youve spotted the enemy coming with superior sensors , or if your cloak is good enough that the incoming fleet didnt even know you were there)

Being the attacker (if your cloaks and/or speed are sufficient to give you a surprise attack)

Other tech enhancements

Penalties to Initiative

Larger/slower ships

Larger fleets (as a proportion of fleet max size)

Being the attacker

The fleet with the highest initiative would get to pick an engagement manoeuvre.

Manouvres

No manoeuvre: combat occurs as normal

Maintain maximum distance: Combat phase duration will be biassed towards the long range phase

Engage at Medium range: Combat phase duration will be biassed towards the medium range phase

Close to Melee range: Combat phase duration will be biassed towards the melee phase

Evade: The arrival phase will be extended as the fleet attempts to avoid combat with the enemy

Retreat: The fleet will attempt to retreat from combat and flee down a (random?) path.

With the manoeuvres which affect the relative durations of combat phases, the amount of bias will depend on the relative degree of initiative of the two fleets.

e.g:

Initiative roughly equal to enemy fleet (1.0x - 1.2x): Zero bias, i.e. combat occurs normally (no opportunity to pick a manoeuvre)

Initiative 1.5x higher than that of enemy fleet: selected phase lasts 25% longer (other phases shortened correspondingly)

Initiative 2.0x higher than that of enemy fleet: selected phase lasts 50% longer

Initiative >= 3.0x higher than that of enemy fleet: selected phase lasts twice as long (maximum bias possible)

Retreat

Lots of suggestions for retreat already, i know. This is more of a detailed description of how it might work.

Fleets can always attempt to retreat, regardless of their initiative level. The retreat manoeuvre will have a chance to succeed based on the relative degree of initiative of the two fleets. The manouevre will never be guaranteed to be successful, and any fleet should have a (small) chance to retreat regardless of the initiative levels.

e.g.

Initiative roughly equal to enemy fleet (0.8x - 1.2x): 25% chance to retreat

Initiative 2.0x higher than that of enemy fleet: 50% chance to retreat

Initiative >= 3.0x higher than that of enemy fleet: 75% chance to retreat (maximum chance possible)

Initiative <= 2.0x lower than that of the enemy fleet: 10% chance to retreat (minimum chance possible)

If both sides choose to attempt to retreat they will both be successful 100% of the time.

A fleet which attempts to retreat and fails will lose the initiative. The opposing fleet will then get to choose an engagement manoeuvre as if they had a 2.0x initiative advantage.

Why Bother?

This gives small nimble ships a reason to exist vs large heavily armoured ones.

Outmatched fleets have a chance to get away and fight another day.

Players can design their ships around a certain engagement range, and attempt to maximise the impact of this.

The game (IMHO) really needs a retreat option.

Thoughts? Enhancements? Flames? Farting Noises?

Ruckuy

Enthusiast

Ruckuy

Enthusiast

21 100g2g pts

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 6:33:41 AM

I like this idea. Alternately, you could be able to research technologies/level heroes so that you could alter the durations of each combat phase with specialized tactic cards, such as "Full speed ahead!" or "Halt engines!" and counters to these such as "Tractor beam" for example. In this way one could speed up phases where one has a disadvantage and slow those in which there is an advantage.

ArrowLance

Newcomer

ArrowLance

Newcomer

200g2g pts

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 7:11:40 AM

I prefer my system which simply expands upon the current combat card system. Here are my threads on the subject: /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11640-5th-tech-tree-military-doctrine and /#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13307-expanding-on-combat-doctrine-and-fleet-construction

snikch

Newcomer

snikch

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 9:50:19 AM

I like the idea of the possibilite of retreat,

but i must admit... I'm not a fan of all what's written here.

Why a little ship have more initiative than a large one ? Physics, air resistance, "because it's big" ? in space...

I partially agree with a modification of initiative because of the size of the fleet. I would consider the number of ship, not the size of the fleet in command points.

why the defenser should have more initiative ? even if a fleet don't have cloaking device, Lightning strikes exists and are made to take an enemy by surprise...

well, in brief, i'm not fond of your idea of initiative.

For the retreat Why not using a card ?

playable only on 1 (and maybe 2nd) phase of a battle. a card of a certain type. so it can be countered by another type of cards...

daveybaby

Newcomer

daveybaby

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 10:01:25 AM

I agree you guys that the phase durations could be altered using techs or heros via the current card system. What i'm proposing here is effectively combat cards played at the beginning of combat to alter the durations.

The difference here is that i'm trying to make the fleet composition affect the ability to play those cards, via initiative, as an attempt to give fleets of small and nimble ships a bit more of a chance against huge lumbering behemoths (as long as you play your cards right). Implementing the mechanism via a tech that can be researched is great and all, but that would probably be applied to fleets regardless of composition.

What i'm trying to achieve is to give the player more interesting choice when building fleets.

daveybaby

Newcomer

daveybaby

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 10:09:38 AM

snikch wrote:
Why a little ship have more initiative than a large one ? Physics, air resistance, "because it's big" ? in space...

Because it gives more interesting gameplay (IMO). Otherwise it's just 'bigger is better' in every situation.

I partially agree with a modification of initiative because of the size of the fleet. I would consider the number of ship, not the size of the fleet in command points.

It was based on the idea that the more 'full' your fleet gets, i.e. the closer you get to the maximum number of ships you can command in a fleet, the harder it gets to manage them effectively. 2 ships are easier to coordinate than 7. Therefore 2 ships can get the initiative. But again, the main reason it because it makes for interesting gameplay.

why the defenser should have more initiative?

Because i wanted to give defenders an advantage. You're correct, though, that it makes more sense for attackers to have the initiative.

Maybe the defenders get the initiative if they have better radar, and have detected the fleet as it approaches, and can prepare in advance. But the attackers get the initiative if they have cloaks and approach undetected, or maybe if theyre really fast and can make the journey quickly enough.

(i've amended the top post to include this idea)

For the retreat Why not using a card ?

Well, it can be using a card. It's just that the chance of success (IMO) should be based on relative initiative of the fleets.

snikch

Newcomer

snikch

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 10:24:47 AM

Yep, I understand for the interresting gameplay.

but i can't agree with the idea for two reason :

1. already said, it's not really logic

2. With your idea and a little optimisation, we will systematically obtain the opposite (we will have "little is better")

so, in my opinion, we should think of something more generic (and optionaly using existing values and system).

for your point two... yes... exactly, more there are ships, difficulter it is to coordinate. exctly, that's my point.

13 ships are difficult to coordinate. even if they are woth 13 command point.

4 ships are easier to coordinate, even if they are worth 13 command point.

Command point are well named. if a ship as a high value of points, it's because it's big and so on, but also because they are commanders and technology to lead fleet inside them too.

yes, agreed for the idea of detection to avoid surprise attack.

and finally.

I can't agree, the chance of success of retreating is the same as having an effective action card of another sort.

I can't see the point of your initiative.

Let's see, I have initiative and I want to run away. I play my card. In all the case, all my phase 1 will be to prepare the fleet to leave and I'll have to endure the enemy fire.

If I survive and if you didn't counter it with the right type of card, I'll retreat. The chance are light. yes. like any other action finally.

daveybaby

Newcomer

daveybaby

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 14, 2012, 11:26:18 AM

snikch wrote:
Yep, I understand for the interresting gameplay.

but i can't agree with the idea for two reason :

1. already said, it's not really logic

Small ships are more manoeuverable than big ones... therefore they have better initiative. Seems fairly intuitive to me.

But hey, it's space opera. You can justify anything with tech.

2. With your idea and a little optimisation, we will systematically obtain the opposite (we will have "little is better")

so, in my opinion, we should think of something more generic (and optionaly using existing values and system).

Only if you balance it wrong. The point isnt to make small ships better than big ships, it's to make a well designed fleet of small ships have the *possibility* to beat a fleet of large ships - if the big fleet plays the correct cards or counters then it can win.

But at the moment a small ship fleet will *always* lose unless it has the advantage in tech or experience. There's no tactical way of winning.

for your point two... yes... exactly, more there are ships, difficulter it is to coordinate. exctly, that's my point.

Ah, we agree on this, ok.

and finally.

I can't agree, the chance of success of retreating is the same as having an effective action card of another sort.

I can't see the point of your initiative.

The point of initiative is that a small, fast and manoeuverable fleet should be able to evade, and thus have a better chance to retreat from, a huge slow and lumbering fleet.

This makes things like harassing forces behind enemy lines possible to implement, they have a good chance to evade huge lumbering fleets, and the enemy must design interception fleets to take them down.

Kubly

Newcomer

Kubly

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 19, 2012, 1:50:44 AM

daveybaby wrote:
snikch wrote:

The point of initiative is that a small, fast and manoeuverable fleet should be able to evade, and thus have a better chance to retreat from, a huge slow and lumbering fleet.

This makes things like harassing forces behind enemy lines possible to implement, they have a good chance to evade huge lumbering fleets, and the enemy must design interception fleets to take them down.

I like this idea a lot. I made a suggestion in couple of other threads that included something to this effect, at least on the galaxy map.

I think a nice way to implement automation without dooming your scouts would be a ship module that allows for ships to pass through a system without being seen/not having to fight or interact with enemy fleets. To limit exploitation it could be reserved only for the smallest classes of ship, or it could be a really heavy module that scales with class size (or both). There could even be a race with bonuses to stealth and limits to ship carrying capacity, so they have a hit and run stealth focus.

This would make raiding behind the lines more tenable.

Another cool addition would then be something akin to the Interdictor class Star Destroyers from Star Wars: Empire At War, where they could pull fleets into battle while in movement, only in this case they would be for catching cloaked ships (maybe they would just have a certain percentage chance to do so, to make it more interesting).

Then you could build a blockade of those ships in order to prevent raids, but some might still be able to slip through.

System improvements that had a similar effect would also be an interesting addition.